Derrick White extension?

[ozgod]

So... can we keep Tatum and White? Would be awesome, even if it meant 2 of Kornet/Hauser/Tillman are casualties in the process.

Next year this is what our cap would look like at the start of the season:

(click to enlarge)


Now fast forward to a year from then, start of 2025-26. If you want to make up some fake numbers, I tried to work out our cap using the Spotrac data for 2025-26 and made the following assumptions:

• We sign JT to a supermax, which would be 35% of the cap for the next 5 years. 2025-26 cap is projected to be $155.1m. I rounded the annual number to $65m for simplicity
• We sign White to a $40m contract, which would be less than a max, which would be $245m for 5 years. Maybe Derrick likes it here and is willing to take a $45m discount over 5 years, especially since we can offer him a 5th year and others can't. Let's cross our fingers
• Since we need more than 7 players to make a team (contrary to what Joe thinks), let's assume we sign most of the bench guys we have now to vet min. Right, no raises, because they should be privileged to be playing for a team as esteemed and royal as the Boston Celtics. In fact they should be paying the team to play. So assume Al, Luke, X, Oshae, Springer and Hauser (yes Hauser) all agree to be paid vet min, which would be around $2.4m).

IF that were to happen this is what our roster would look like (for visual people who find numbers boring):

(click to enlarge)


Our active roster cap would be at $247m. We would be over the salary cap of $155.1m with just the Jays and Derrick. We would be over the luxury tax of $188m with Jrue added to that (who cares it's not our money). We would be over the 2nd apron of $208m with our starting 5 and would be unable to aggregate salaries in trade (who cares we don't need anyone else with our superteam), our 2033 draft pick would be frozen (who cares don't need it), no access to the MLE (who cares we have a superteam, don't need it), can't include cash in trades (who cares). We would be $63m over the luxury tax with all those committed salaries and trade restrictions so Wyc better get his wallet out, we don't want no cheapskate owners 

It would suck to be Al, Luke, Sam, Q, X and Jaden to be paid vet min (anyway Al would be in his dotage by then we would be doing him a favor giving him a vet min at all) but where we cannot offer them money we can offer them championships and rings. 

There's no other way around it, I feel we will be operating as an over the 2nd apron team for the foreseeable future. To answer Phantom's question, yes we can keep both JT and White, and the others as well - there's nothing that prevents the above scenario from happening, it just needs an acceptance from Wyc and Brad of the financial and roster building consequences of being an over-the-luxury-tax and over-the-second apron team. Because these are all our own players that we have Bird rights to, we can exceed the cap to re-sign them. We will just be severely hampered both financially and roster-wise for the next number of years once those contracts are guaranteed and on our books. So if something goes south, like what happened with Phoenix this year, we will be very limited in being able to do anything. If anything I erred on the conservative side by filling out the rest of our lineup with guys getting paid vet min, I'm sure Sam won't be getting paid a vet min at least 

Because of that, I think it's inevitable that someone will eventually be moved, within the next 3 or so years, whether it's Jrue, Jaylen or both. Not because they suck because they don't, but because at some point Brad will want to reset the repeater tax rate to make it less onerous for ownership (just think of Golden State paying around $400m in payroll and tax next season with a team that probably won't even make the playoffs again) and also try to get under the second apron for at least a year for roster management purposes.

[Big333223]

Does anyone have the number for White's max extension if he were to be extended this summer?

[ozgod]

Does anyone have the number for White's max extension if he were to be extended this summer?

He should be eligible for $245m for 5 years give or take, depending on incentives which would be 30% of the cap for the next 5 years since he’s not on his 10th year yet. He wouldn’t be eligible for a super max which is 35% of the cap. The reason it’s an approximate is because the cap for the next 5 years is a projection.

EDIT: Corrected below.

[jambr380]

Does anyone have the number for White's max extension if he were to be extended this summer?

He should be eligible for $245m for 5 years give or take, depending on incentives which would be 30% of the cap for the next 5 years since he’s not on his 10th year yet. He wouldn’t be eligible for a super max which is 35% of the cap. The reason it’s an approximate is because the cap for the next 5 years is a projection.

I was under the impression that he was only eligible for around 4 yrs/$128M (I've also seen $123M) - so around $32M/yr. Maybe he could get a little more than that on the open market, but he really seems to have found his home here - even his dad is a pretty major part of Celtics culture at this point.

I love White and really do hope we keep him, but it's definitely in our best interest to get a deal done this summer. Having to pay him $50M/yr when he is an UFA would kind of suck.

[Celtics2021]

Does anyone have the number for White's max extension if he were to be extended this summer?

He should be eligible for $245m for 5 years give or take, depending on incentives which would be 30% of the cap for the next 5 years since he’s not on his 10th year yet. He wouldn’t be eligible for a super max which is 35% of the cap. The reason it’s an approximate is because the cap for the next 5 years is a projection.

I don’t think that’s right.  Veteran extensions are limited to a 40% increase from the final year of the original deal, so White’s extension would start at roughly $28 million, or $125 million over four years (also the max length of his extension).

[ozgod]

I double checked the CBA and you are both correct, here's the exact wording:

(ii) Subject to Article II, Section 7, a Player Contract extended in accordance with this Section 7(a) (other than an Extension entered into in connection with a trade pursuant to Section 8(e)(2) below or a Designated Veteran Player Extension) may, in the first Salary Cap Year covered by the extended term, provide for a Salary, excluding Incentive Compensation, of up to the greater of:  (A) one hundred forty percent (140%) of the Regular Salary in the last Salary Cap Year covered by the original term of the Contract; or (B) one hundred forty percent (140%) of the Estimated Average Player Salary for the Salary Cap Year in which the Extension is signed (or, if the Extension provides for any Incentive Compensation in the first Salary Cap Year covered by the extended term, then one hundred forty percent (140%) of the Estimated Average Player Salary for such Salary Cap Year less the amount of such Incentive Compensation). 

In the event that the last Salary Cap Year covered by the original term of the Contract provides for Incentive Compensation, the first Salary Cap Year covered by the extended term may provide for Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses of up to one hundred forty percent (140%) of the Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses, respectively, in the last Salary Cap Year covered by the original term.  Annual increases and decreases in Salary and Unlikely Bonuses shall be governed by Section 5(a)(3) above.

Notwithstanding Section 7(a)(3)(i) above, a Designated Veteran Player Extension may provide for a Salary in the 252 Article VII first Salary Cap year covered by the extended term totaling no more than the maximum amount provided for in Article II, Section 7.  Annual increases and decreases in Salary shall be governed by Section 5(a)(3) above.

(iii) Notwithstanding Section 7(a)(3)(i) or (ii) above, for an Extension entered into in connection with a trade pursuant to Section 8(e)(2) below: (A) (B) If such Extension is signed prior to the first day of the 2024-25 Salary Cap Year, then the Extension may, in the first Salary Cap Year covered by the extended term, provide for a Salary, excluding Incentive Compensation, of up to one hundred five percent (105%) of the Regular Salary in the last Salary Cap Year covered by the original term of the Contract.  In the event that the last Salary Cap Year covered by the original term of the Contract provides for Incentive Compensation, the first Salary Cap Year covered by the extended term may provide for Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses of up to one hundred five percent (105%) of the Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses, respectively, in the last Salary Cap Year covered by the original term.  Annual increases and decreases in Salary and Unlikely Bonuses shall be governed by Section 5(a)(4) above.

If such Extension is signed on or after the first day of the 2024-25 Salary Cap Year, then the Extension may, in the first Salary Cap Year covered by the extended term, provide for a Salary, excluding Incentive Compensation, of up to the greater of:  (A) one hundred twenty percent (120%) of the Regular Salary in the last Salary Cap Year covered by the original term of the Contract; or (B) one hundred twenty percent (120%) of the Estimated Average Player Salary for the Salary Cap Year in which the Extension is signed (or, if the Extension provides for any Incentive Compensation in the first Salary Cap Article VII 253 Year covered by the extended term, then one hundred twenty percent (120%) of the Estimated Average Player Salary for such Salary Cap Year less the amount of such Incentive Compensation). 

In the event that the last Salary Cap Year covered by the original term of the Contract provides for Incentive Compensation, the first Salary Cap Year covered by the extended term may provide for Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses of up to one hundred twenty percent (120%) of the Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses, respectively, in the last Salary Cap Year covered by the original term.  Annual increases and decreases in Salary and Unlikely Bonuses shall be governed by Section 5(a)(4) above.

(iv) (v) For purposes of determining the maximum allowable Salary in the first year of the extended term of an Extension pursuant to Sections 7(a)(3)(i) and 7(a)(3)(iii) above only, the amount of any bonuses that a player may receive pursuant to Article II, Sections 3(b)(iii) and 3(c) shall be added to the player’s Regular Salary and excluded from his Incentive Compensation. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in this Agreement, a player who will not be a Qualifying Veteran Free Agent at the conclusion of his Contract will not be eligible to enter into an Extension pursuant to this Section 7(a).

https://nbpa.com/cba

It will be harder to hang on to him then if someone would be willing to pay him a max of $50m and we can only offer him $28m for 4 years.

[ozgod]

I updated my chart above to reflect this...so now we won't go over the salary cap with the Jays and White, it will take KP's salary to push us over 

[Roy H.]

I double checked the CBA and you are both correct, here's the exact wording:

(ii) Subject to Article II, Section 7, a Player Contract extended in accordance with this Section 7(a) (other than an Extension entered into in connection with a trade pursuant to Section 8(e)(2) below or a Designated Veteran Player Extension) may, in the first Salary Cap Year covered by the extended term, provide for a Salary, excluding Incentive Compensation, of up to the greater of:  (A) one hundred forty percent (140%) of the Regular Salary in the last Salary Cap Year covered by the original term of the Contract; or (B) one hundred forty percent (140%) of the Estimated Average Player Salary for the Salary Cap Year in which the Extension is signed (or, if the Extension provides for any Incentive Compensation in the first Salary Cap Year covered by the extended term, then one hundred forty percent (140%) of the Estimated Average Player Salary for such Salary Cap Year less the amount of such Incentive Compensation). 

In the event that the last Salary Cap Year covered by the original term of the Contract provides for Incentive Compensation, the first Salary Cap Year covered by the extended term may provide for Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses of up to one hundred forty percent (140%) of the Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses, respectively, in the last Salary Cap Year covered by the original term.  Annual increases and decreases in Salary and Unlikely Bonuses shall be governed by Section 5(a)(3) above.

Notwithstanding Section 7(a)(3)(i) above, a Designated Veteran Player Extension may provide for a Salary in the 252 Article VII first Salary Cap year covered by the extended term totaling no more than the maximum amount provided for in Article II, Section 7.  Annual increases and decreases in Salary shall be governed by Section 5(a)(3) above.

(iii) Notwithstanding Section 7(a)(3)(i) or (ii) above, for an Extension entered into in connection with a trade pursuant to Section 8(e)(2) below: (A) (B) If such Extension is signed prior to the first day of the 2024-25 Salary Cap Year, then the Extension may, in the first Salary Cap Year covered by the extended term, provide for a Salary, excluding Incentive Compensation, of up to one hundred five percent (105%) of the Regular Salary in the last Salary Cap Year covered by the original term of the Contract.  In the event that the last Salary Cap Year covered by the original term of the Contract provides for Incentive Compensation, the first Salary Cap Year covered by the extended term may provide for Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses of up to one hundred five percent (105%) of the Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses, respectively, in the last Salary Cap Year covered by the original term.  Annual increases and decreases in Salary and Unlikely Bonuses shall be governed by Section 5(a)(4) above.

If such Extension is signed on or after the first day of the 2024-25 Salary Cap Year, then the Extension may, in the first Salary Cap Year covered by the extended term, provide for a Salary, excluding Incentive Compensation, of up to the greater of:  (A) one hundred twenty percent (120%) of the Regular Salary in the last Salary Cap Year covered by the original term of the Contract; or (B) one hundred twenty percent (120%) of the Estimated Average Player Salary for the Salary Cap Year in which the Extension is signed (or, if the Extension provides for any Incentive Compensation in the first Salary Cap Article VII 253 Year covered by the extended term, then one hundred twenty percent (120%) of the Estimated Average Player Salary for such Salary Cap Year less the amount of such Incentive Compensation). 

In the event that the last Salary Cap Year covered by the original term of the Contract provides for Incentive Compensation, the first Salary Cap Year covered by the extended term may provide for Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses of up to one hundred twenty percent (120%) of the Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses, respectively, in the last Salary Cap Year covered by the original term.  Annual increases and decreases in Salary and Unlikely Bonuses shall be governed by Section 5(a)(4) above.

(iv) (v) For purposes of determining the maximum allowable Salary in the first year of the extended term of an Extension pursuant to Sections 7(a)(3)(i) and 7(a)(3)(iii) above only, the amount of any bonuses that a player may receive pursuant to Article II, Sections 3(b)(iii) and 3(c) shall be added to the player’s Regular Salary and excluded from his Incentive Compensation. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in this Agreement, a player who will not be a Qualifying Veteran Free Agent at the conclusion of his Contract will not be eligible to enter into an Extension pursuant to this Section 7(a).

https://nbpa.com/cba

It will be harder to hang on to him then if someone would be willing to pay him a max of $50m and we can only offer him $28m for 4 years.

Just to clarify, we can match or exceed any contract he is offered in free agency. We are just limited in terms of what we can offer him in an extension prior to his contract expiring.

[Phantom255x]

You got to pay White and Tatum. You'll remain a contender for many years to come with Holiday, White, Brown and Tatum. Even if Holiday slips soon and Horford inevitably retires, you have a few potential pieces down the road like Springer, Walsh, Queta and hopefully 1 of Hauser/Tillman/Kornet.

[kraidstar]

You got to pay White and Tatum. You'll remain a contender for many years to come with Holiday, White, Brown and Tatum. Even if Holiday slips soon and Horford inevitably retires, you have a few potential pieces down the road like Springer, Walsh, Queta and hopefully 1 of Hauser/Tillman/Kornet.

That Holiday contract looms large over all of this. We NEED to resign White. Ownership better be willing to see this thing through.

[Phantom255x]

You got to pay White and Tatum. You'll remain a contender for many years to come with Holiday, White, Brown and Tatum. Even if Holiday slips soon and Horford inevitably retires, you have a few potential pieces down the road like Springer, Walsh, Queta and hopefully 1 of Hauser/Tillman/Kornet.

That Holiday contract looms large over all of this. We NEED to resign White. Ownership better be willing to see this thing through.

Brad's a very smart man. I'm sure he planned all this out. But I'll admit I was a bit surprised they reached an extension with Holiday before White, and did it right before the playoffs. I just hope we don't lose White because of it, but again I think Brad and Wyc probably have an idea of the long term plan.

[Celtics2021]

You got to pay White and Tatum. You'll remain a contender for many years to come with Holiday, White, Brown and Tatum. Even if Holiday slips soon and Horford inevitably retires, you have a few potential pieces down the road like Springer, Walsh, Queta and hopefully 1 of Hauser/Tillman/Kornet.

That Holiday contract looms large over all of this. We NEED to resign White. Ownership better be willing to see this thing through.

Brad's a very smart man. I'm sure he planned all this out. But I'll admit I was a bit surprised they reached an extension with Holiday before White, and did it right before the playoffs. I just hope we don't lose White because of it, but again I think Brad and Wyc probably have an idea of the long term plan.

Well they couldn’t extend White until July, and they needed to extend Holiday before he could opt out in June, so it wasn’t very surprising that they extended Jrue first when you consider the dynamics of it all.  Brad will certainly offer White the most he can in July, and I’d put it between a 1/3 and 1/2 chance he signs it.  I’d be more surprised if he signed it than if he didn’t, but not shocked in either scenario.

[Big333223]

Does anyone have the number for White's max extension if he were to be extended this summer?

He should be eligible for $245m for 5 years give or take, depending on incentives which would be 30% of the cap for the next 5 years since he’s not on his 10th year yet. He wouldn’t be eligible for a super max which is 35% of the cap. The reason it’s an approximate is because the cap for the next 5 years is a projection.

I don’t think that’s right.  Veteran extensions are limited to a 40% increase from the final year of the original deal, so White’s extension would start at roughly $28 million, or $125 million over four years (also the max length of his extension).

Zach Lowe said something that I hope winds up being true, which is that non-star players are often more inclined to take the guaranteed money than testing free agency, especially when it's a significant raise.

It will be great for the C's if they can get him on an extension this summer because it will almost certainly be cheaper than what they'd have to pay in free agency.

[Roy H.]

Does anyone have the number for White's max extension if he were to be extended this summer?

He should be eligible for $245m for 5 years give or take, depending on incentives which would be 30% of the cap for the next 5 years since he’s not on his 10th year yet. He wouldn’t be eligible for a super max which is 35% of the cap. The reason it’s an approximate is because the cap for the next 5 years is a projection.

I don’t think that’s right.  Veteran extensions are limited to a 40% increase from the final year of the original deal, so White’s extension would start at roughly $28 million, or $125 million over four years (also the max length of his extension).

Zach Lowe said something that I hope winds up being true, which is that non-star players are often more inclined to take the guaranteed money than testing free agency, especially when it's a significant raise.

It will be great for the C's if they can get him on an extension this summer because it will almost certainly be cheaper than what they'd have to pay in free agency.

So hard to say.  He's made around $59 million in his career.  Does he jump at $123 million, or does he bet on himself knowing that one healthy year earns him at least $180 over four years.

I'm sure he's quite happy in Boston, but theres a gigantic monetary difference.  Plus, playing out his contract doesn't mean he necessarily has to leave Boston; I'm sure his ideal is to get paid and to stay here as well.

[keevsnick]

There's something to be said about offering a guy the maximum you can offer him, even if it isn't the maximum he can get if he went all the way to free agency. It feels like players are more likely to take the money when ts the max you can give them.

Derick White is really good, but he's not the level of guy where if he suffers a big injury in his age 30 season he'll still get a big contract.  Turning down 100+ million right as you're about to turn 30 is a huge risk.

Its going to be interesting to see what he does.