Vote: All NBA Teams for 2018-2019 (1st Team All-NBA)

[smokeablount]

Voting is locked with 35 members having voted, the CelticsStrong All-NBA 1st Team is:

Curry
Harden
PG13
Giannis
Jokic

I had 2 different guys, Kyrie over Curry (homer pick but actually defensible) and Kawhi over PG13 (it was a toss up), but I like this group.

Vote on the All-NBA 2nd Team here: https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=99537.msg2645967 and stay tuned for the All-NBA 3rd Team poll to come as early as next week.  We can all vote again on the teams after the season as well if people would like.

[nickagneta]

For the poll I went with Kyrie over Curry. Obviously, I voted with my green glasses on, but I do believe he has been better this season.

As a staunch Kyrie defender and fan of the Celtics, I would like to agree with you but... Have you, like, seen Steph Curry?

Actually, if you look at the stats, Kyrie is having arguably just as good a year as Steph. Steph scores more because out of his 18 shots 12 are 3 pointers and out of Kyrie's 18 shots only 6 are 3 pointers. But otherwise, the stats are really very close.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&y1=2019&player_id1=irvinky01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Stephen+Curry&player_id2_select=Stephen+Curry&y2=2019&player_id2=curryst01&idx=players

You're right, their stats are pretty close. And I think Kyrie is, generally, loser to Curry than a lot of others do. I also think Curry is still clearly the better player. Taking his situation in GS and Kyrie's in Boston into consideration, it's hard for me to imagine anyone outside of Boston taking Kyrie over Curry here.

It's the three pointers. Kyrie shoots them at an nearly identical rate. If Kyrie shot 12 a game, every game, he would have 28 points a game too.

I think Steph is a better player. But I think they are having very similar years and have very similar value to their teams. I think it's a lot closer than most people think, this year anyway.

[smokeablount]

For the poll I went with Kyrie over Curry. Obviously, I voted with my green glasses on, but I do believe he has been better this season.

As a staunch Kyrie defender and fan of the Celtics, I would like to agree with you but... Have you, like, seen Steph Curry?

Actually, if you look at the stats, Kyrie is having arguably just as good a year as Steph. Steph scores more because out of his 18 shots 12 are 3 pointers and out of Kyrie's 18 shots only 6 are 3 pointers. But otherwise, the stats are really very close.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&y1=2019&player_id1=irvinky01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Stephen+Curry&player_id2_select=Stephen+Curry&y2=2019&player_id2=curryst01&idx=players

You're right, their stats are pretty close. And I think Kyrie is, generally, loser to Curry than a lot of others do. I also think Curry is still clearly the better player. Taking his situation in GS and Kyrie's in Boston into consideration, it's hard for me to imagine anyone outside of Boston taking Kyrie over Curry here.

It's the three pointers. Kyrie shoots them at an nearly identical rate. If Kyrie shot 12 a game, every game, he would have 28 points a game too.

I think Steph is a better player. But I think they are having very similar years and have very similar value to their teams. I think it's a lot closer than most people think, this year anyway.

I agree. Kyrie higher Win Shares, WS/48, PER, VORP & Box +/- than Curry. Curry is a better player but the seasons are very close.  And it shouldn’t matter who the better player is, only the season. Durant is better than PG13 and yet it was PG13 named 1st team in the poll.

[Big333223]

For the poll I went with Kyrie over Curry. Obviously, I voted with my green glasses on, but I do believe he has been better this season.

As a staunch Kyrie defender and fan of the Celtics, I would like to agree with you but... Have you, like, seen Steph Curry?

Actually, if you look at the stats, Kyrie is having arguably just as good a year as Steph. Steph scores more because out of his 18 shots 12 are 3 pointers and out of Kyrie's 18 shots only 6 are 3 pointers. But otherwise, the stats are really very close.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&y1=2019&player_id1=irvinky01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Stephen+Curry&player_id2_select=Stephen+Curry&y2=2019&player_id2=curryst01&idx=players

You're right, their stats are pretty close. And I think Kyrie is, generally, loser to Curry than a lot of others do. I also think Curry is still clearly the better player. Taking his situation in GS and Kyrie's in Boston into consideration, it's hard for me to imagine anyone outside of Boston taking Kyrie over Curry here.

It's the three pointers. Kyrie shoots them at an nearly identical rate. If Kyrie shot 12 a game, every game, he would have 28 points a game too.

I think Steph is a better player. But I think they are having very similar years and have very similar value to their teams. I think it's a lot closer than most people think, this year anyway.

I agree. Kyrie higher Win Shares, WS/48, PER, VORP & Box +/- than Curry. Curry is a better player but the seasons are very close.  And it shouldn’t matter who the better player is, only the season. Durant is better than PG13 and yet it was PG13 named 1st team in the poll.

But again, taking into account each player's situation and understanding the context of those numbers, helps Curry's case. I think he's had, clearly, the better season.

[smokeablount]

For the poll I went with Kyrie over Curry. Obviously, I voted with my green glasses on, but I do believe he has been better this season.

As a staunch Kyrie defender and fan of the Celtics, I would like to agree with you but... Have you, like, seen Steph Curry?

Actually, if you look at the stats, Kyrie is having arguably just as good a year as Steph. Steph scores more because out of his 18 shots 12 are 3 pointers and out of Kyrie's 18 shots only 6 are 3 pointers. But otherwise, the stats are really very close.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&y1=2019&player_id1=irvinky01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Stephen+Curry&player_id2_select=Stephen+Curry&y2=2019&player_id2=curryst01&idx=players

You're right, their stats are pretty close. And I think Kyrie is, generally, loser to Curry than a lot of others do. I also think Curry is still clearly the better player. Taking his situation in GS and Kyrie's in Boston into consideration, it's hard for me to imagine anyone outside of Boston taking Kyrie over Curry here.

It's the three pointers. Kyrie shoots them at an nearly identical rate. If Kyrie shot 12 a game, every game, he would have 28 points a game too.

I think Steph is a better player. But I think they are having very similar years and have very similar value to their teams. I think it's a lot closer than most people think, this year anyway.

I agree. Kyrie higher Win Shares, WS/48, PER, VORP & Box +/- than Curry. Curry is a better player but the seasons are very close.  And it shouldn’t matter who the better player is, only the season. Durant is better than PG13 and yet it was PG13 named 1st team in the poll.

But again, taking into account each player's situation and understanding the context of those numbers, helps Curry's case. I think he's had, clearly, the better season.

As you are a very insightful poster here I'm curious to hear more, but I'd need clarity on what you mean.  I think Curry is a better player, yes.  He plays on a better team also... but that means he has 2 teammates that are better than any of Kyrie's teammates.  Realistically Curry isn't even the best player on his team, and he has the luxury of letting his foot off the gas pedal and getting MVP-level and All-Star level support.  Also let's be real, GS has mailed in games.  If Kyrie takes his foot off the gas pedal we tend to lose, he has to be 100% on. 

-If Kyrie has similar numbers and other than shooting efficiency, better advanced stats and winning-oriented stats across the board,
-And if Curry has 2 teammates better than any of Kyrie's, Curry is better than Kyrie, and Durant is likely better than Curry himself,

Then I'd expect the Warriors to have a much better record + point differential than the Celtics to justify Curry making it over Kyrie with arguably worse numbers and the help of 2-3 all stars, vs. Kyrie pretty much going it alone.  But the difference in wins, to me, isn't big enough.  The Warriors have been mailing in games, and only have 49 wins and a +6.2 point differential vs the Celtics 43 wins and +5.0.

The Warriors aren't that much better than everyone this regular season.  Take Curry off the Warriors and they could still win the West (no Curry would mean Klay comes alive this year) but take Kyrie off the Celtics and I think we'd be lucky to make the playoffs.  To me, that's the understanding and the context of the numbers I need.  That Curry has more help than Kyrie, worse advanced stats, less pressure, and his team isn't lighting the world on fire this year.  Kyrie is like a mini Harden- he is the whole offense, and it would collapse without him, leaving the team in disarray with no replacement.

As an aside, I don't see how situation/context rewards Curry over Kyrie and yet we start PG13 over Durant.  It doesn't make sense to me.  Explanation?

[Moranis]

For the poll I went with Kyrie over Curry. Obviously, I voted with my green glasses on, but I do believe he has been better this season.

As a staunch Kyrie defender and fan of the Celtics, I would like to agree with you but... Have you, like, seen Steph Curry?

Actually, if you look at the stats, Kyrie is having arguably just as good a year as Steph. Steph scores more because out of his 18 shots 12 are 3 pointers and out of Kyrie's 18 shots only 6 are 3 pointers. But otherwise, the stats are really very close.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&y1=2019&player_id1=irvinky01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Stephen+Curry&player_id2_select=Stephen+Curry&y2=2019&player_id2=curryst01&idx=players

You're right, their stats are pretty close. And I think Kyrie is, generally, loser to Curry than a lot of others do. I also think Curry is still clearly the better player. Taking his situation in GS and Kyrie's in Boston into consideration, it's hard for me to imagine anyone outside of Boston taking Kyrie over Curry here.

It's the three pointers. Kyrie shoots them at an nearly identical rate. If Kyrie shot 12 a game, every game, he would have 28 points a game too.

I think Steph is a better player. But I think they are having very similar years and have very similar value to their teams. I think it's a lot closer than most people think, this year anyway.

I agree. Kyrie higher Win Shares, WS/48, PER, VORP & Box +/- than Curry. Curry is a better player but the seasons are very close.  And it shouldn’t matter who the better player is, only the season. Durant is better than PG13 and yet it was PG13 named 1st team in the poll.

But again, taking into account each player's situation and understanding the context of those numbers, helps Curry's case. I think he's had, clearly, the better season.

As you are a very insightful poster here I'm curious to hear more, but I'd need clarity on what you mean.  I think Curry is a better player, yes.  He plays on a better team also... but that means he has 2 teammates that are better than any of Kyrie's teammates.  Realistically Curry isn't even the best player on his team, and he has the luxury of letting his foot off the gas pedal and getting MVP-level and All-Star level support.  Also let's be real, GS has mailed in games.  If Kyrie takes his foot off the gas pedal we tend to lose, he has to be 100% on. 

-If Kyrie has similar numbers and other than shooting efficiency, better advanced stats and winning-oriented stats across the board,
-And if Curry has 2 teammates better than any of Kyrie's, Curry is better than Kyrie, and Durant is likely better than Curry himself,

Then I'd expect the Warriors to have a much better record + point differential than the Celtics to justify Curry making it over Kyrie with arguably worse numbers and the help of 2-3 all stars, vs. Kyrie pretty much going it alone.  But the difference in wins, to me, isn't big enough.  The Warriors have been mailing in games, and only have 49 wins and a +6.2 point differential vs the Celtics 43 wins and +5.0.

The Warriors aren't that much better than everyone this regular season.  Take Curry off the Warriors and they could still win the West (no Curry would mean Klay comes alive this year) but take Kyrie off the Celtics and I think we'd be lucky to make the playoffs.  To me, that's the understanding and the context of the numbers I need.  That Curry has more help than Kyrie, worse advanced stats, less pressure, and his team isn't lighting the world on fire this year.  Kyrie is like a mini Harden- he is the whole offense, and it would collapse without him, leaving the team in disarray with no replacement.

As an aside, I don't see how situation/context rewards Curry over Kyrie and yet we start PG13 over Durant.  It doesn't make sense to me.  Explanation?

I think his point is Curry's numbers are cannibalized by Durant.  In other words, if Durant wasn't there, Curry would be scoring 35 a game, be the unquestioned leader of a great team, etc. 

[smokeablount]

For the poll I went with Kyrie over Curry. Obviously, I voted with my green glasses on, but I do believe he has been better this season.

As a staunch Kyrie defender and fan of the Celtics, I would like to agree with you but... Have you, like, seen Steph Curry?

Actually, if you look at the stats, Kyrie is having arguably just as good a year as Steph. Steph scores more because out of his 18 shots 12 are 3 pointers and out of Kyrie's 18 shots only 6 are 3 pointers. But otherwise, the stats are really very close.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&y1=2019&player_id1=irvinky01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Stephen+Curry&player_id2_select=Stephen+Curry&y2=2019&player_id2=curryst01&idx=players

You're right, their stats are pretty close. And I think Kyrie is, generally, loser to Curry than a lot of others do. I also think Curry is still clearly the better player. Taking his situation in GS and Kyrie's in Boston into consideration, it's hard for me to imagine anyone outside of Boston taking Kyrie over Curry here.

It's the three pointers. Kyrie shoots them at an nearly identical rate. If Kyrie shot 12 a game, every game, he would have 28 points a game too.

I think Steph is a better player. But I think they are having very similar years and have very similar value to their teams. I think it's a lot closer than most people think, this year anyway.

I agree. Kyrie higher Win Shares, WS/48, PER, VORP & Box +/- than Curry. Curry is a better player but the seasons are very close.  And it shouldn’t matter who the better player is, only the season. Durant is better than PG13 and yet it was PG13 named 1st team in the poll.

But again, taking into account each player's situation and understanding the context of those numbers, helps Curry's case. I think he's had, clearly, the better season.

As you are a very insightful poster here I'm curious to hear more, but I'd need clarity on what you mean.  I think Curry is a better player, yes.  He plays on a better team also... but that means he has 2 teammates that are better than any of Kyrie's teammates.  Realistically Curry isn't even the best player on his team, and he has the luxury of letting his foot off the gas pedal and getting MVP-level and All-Star level support.  Also let's be real, GS has mailed in games.  If Kyrie takes his foot off the gas pedal we tend to lose, he has to be 100% on. 

-If Kyrie has similar numbers and other than shooting efficiency, better advanced stats and winning-oriented stats across the board,
-And if Curry has 2 teammates better than any of Kyrie's, Curry is better than Kyrie, and Durant is likely better than Curry himself,

Then I'd expect the Warriors to have a much better record + point differential than the Celtics to justify Curry making it over Kyrie with arguably worse numbers and the help of 2-3 all stars, vs. Kyrie pretty much going it alone.  But the difference in wins, to me, isn't big enough.  The Warriors have been mailing in games, and only have 49 wins and a +6.2 point differential vs the Celtics 43 wins and +5.0.

The Warriors aren't that much better than everyone this regular season.  Take Curry off the Warriors and they could still win the West (no Curry would mean Klay comes alive this year) but take Kyrie off the Celtics and I think we'd be lucky to make the playoffs.  To me, that's the understanding and the context of the numbers I need.  That Curry has more help than Kyrie, worse advanced stats, less pressure, and his team isn't lighting the world on fire this year.  Kyrie is like a mini Harden- he is the whole offense, and it would collapse without him, leaving the team in disarray with no replacement.

As an aside, I don't see how situation/context rewards Curry over Kyrie and yet we start PG13 over Durant.  It doesn't make sense to me.  Explanation?

I think his point is Curry's numbers are cannibalized by Durant.  In other words, if Durant wasn't there, Curry would be scoring 35 a game, be the unquestioned leader of a great team, etc.

Yeah that does makes sense, but the thing is, that didn't actually happen.  He does play with Durant, and what he actually accomplished was very similar to Kyrie for a team that might "only" win 60.  By this logic, why hasn't Curry won an MVP since Durant came, or even been close?  If Durant wasn't there I agree Curry would be going nuts, but if we don't approach MVP that way, why approach All-NBA teams that way?  Also, doesn't Durant cannibalize Curry?  So why is PG13 1st team?

[Moranis]

For the poll I went with Kyrie over Curry. Obviously, I voted with my green glasses on, but I do believe he has been better this season.

As a staunch Kyrie defender and fan of the Celtics, I would like to agree with you but... Have you, like, seen Steph Curry?

Actually, if you look at the stats, Kyrie is having arguably just as good a year as Steph. Steph scores more because out of his 18 shots 12 are 3 pointers and out of Kyrie's 18 shots only 6 are 3 pointers. But otherwise, the stats are really very close.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&y1=2019&player_id1=irvinky01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Stephen+Curry&player_id2_select=Stephen+Curry&y2=2019&player_id2=curryst01&idx=players

You're right, their stats are pretty close. And I think Kyrie is, generally, loser to Curry than a lot of others do. I also think Curry is still clearly the better player. Taking his situation in GS and Kyrie's in Boston into consideration, it's hard for me to imagine anyone outside of Boston taking Kyrie over Curry here.

It's the three pointers. Kyrie shoots them at an nearly identical rate. If Kyrie shot 12 a game, every game, he would have 28 points a game too.

I think Steph is a better player. But I think they are having very similar years and have very similar value to their teams. I think it's a lot closer than most people think, this year anyway.

I agree. Kyrie higher Win Shares, WS/48, PER, VORP & Box +/- than Curry. Curry is a better player but the seasons are very close.  And it shouldn’t matter who the better player is, only the season. Durant is better than PG13 and yet it was PG13 named 1st team in the poll.

But again, taking into account each player's situation and understanding the context of those numbers, helps Curry's case. I think he's had, clearly, the better season.

As you are a very insightful poster here I'm curious to hear more, but I'd need clarity on what you mean.  I think Curry is a better player, yes.  He plays on a better team also... but that means he has 2 teammates that are better than any of Kyrie's teammates.  Realistically Curry isn't even the best player on his team, and he has the luxury of letting his foot off the gas pedal and getting MVP-level and All-Star level support.  Also let's be real, GS has mailed in games.  If Kyrie takes his foot off the gas pedal we tend to lose, he has to be 100% on. 

-If Kyrie has similar numbers and other than shooting efficiency, better advanced stats and winning-oriented stats across the board,
-And if Curry has 2 teammates better than any of Kyrie's, Curry is better than Kyrie, and Durant is likely better than Curry himself,

Then I'd expect the Warriors to have a much better record + point differential than the Celtics to justify Curry making it over Kyrie with arguably worse numbers and the help of 2-3 all stars, vs. Kyrie pretty much going it alone.  But the difference in wins, to me, isn't big enough.  The Warriors have been mailing in games, and only have 49 wins and a +6.2 point differential vs the Celtics 43 wins and +5.0.

The Warriors aren't that much better than everyone this regular season.  Take Curry off the Warriors and they could still win the West (no Curry would mean Klay comes alive this year) but take Kyrie off the Celtics and I think we'd be lucky to make the playoffs.  To me, that's the understanding and the context of the numbers I need.  That Curry has more help than Kyrie, worse advanced stats, less pressure, and his team isn't lighting the world on fire this year.  Kyrie is like a mini Harden- he is the whole offense, and it would collapse without him, leaving the team in disarray with no replacement.

As an aside, I don't see how situation/context rewards Curry over Kyrie and yet we start PG13 over Durant.  It doesn't make sense to me.  Explanation?

I think his point is Curry's numbers are cannibalized by Durant.  In other words, if Durant wasn't there, Curry would be scoring 35 a game, be the unquestioned leader of a great team, etc.

Yeah that does makes sense, but the thing is, that didn't actually happen.  He does play with Durant, and what he actually accomplished was very similar to Kyrie for a team that might "only" win 60.  By this logic, why hasn't Curry won an MVP since Durant came, or even been close?  If Durant wasn't there I agree Curry would be going nuts, but if we don't approach MVP that way, why approach All-NBA teams that way?  Also, doesn't Durant cannibalize Curry?  So why is PG13 1st team?

It did actually happen.  Curry averaged over 30 ppg on a 73 win team the year before Durant came there, dropping Curry 5 ppg (though he has crept back up some the last couple of seasons).  Curry won back to back MVP's the 2 seasons before Durant, Durant joins the team and has been 6th and 10th in voting since.  Again proving the point, Curry is hurt by playing with Durant, whereas Irving doesn't have that issue. 

The fact that they are fairly close statistically when one guy is having his stats cannibalized when the other guy isn't, weighs heavily in favor of the player being cannibalized.

[smokeablount]

For the poll I went with Kyrie over Curry. Obviously, I voted with my green glasses on, but I do believe he has been better this season.

As a staunch Kyrie defender and fan of the Celtics, I would like to agree with you but... Have you, like, seen Steph Curry?

Actually, if you look at the stats, Kyrie is having arguably just as good a year as Steph. Steph scores more because out of his 18 shots 12 are 3 pointers and out of Kyrie's 18 shots only 6 are 3 pointers. But otherwise, the stats are really very close.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&y1=2019&player_id1=irvinky01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Stephen+Curry&player_id2_select=Stephen+Curry&y2=2019&player_id2=curryst01&idx=players

You're right, their stats are pretty close. And I think Kyrie is, generally, loser to Curry than a lot of others do. I also think Curry is still clearly the better player. Taking his situation in GS and Kyrie's in Boston into consideration, it's hard for me to imagine anyone outside of Boston taking Kyrie over Curry here.

It's the three pointers. Kyrie shoots them at an nearly identical rate. If Kyrie shot 12 a game, every game, he would have 28 points a game too.

I think Steph is a better player. But I think they are having very similar years and have very similar value to their teams. I think it's a lot closer than most people think, this year anyway.

I agree. Kyrie higher Win Shares, WS/48, PER, VORP & Box +/- than Curry. Curry is a better player but the seasons are very close.  And it shouldn’t matter who the better player is, only the season. Durant is better than PG13 and yet it was PG13 named 1st team in the poll.

But again, taking into account each player's situation and understanding the context of those numbers, helps Curry's case. I think he's had, clearly, the better season.

As you are a very insightful poster here I'm curious to hear more, but I'd need clarity on what you mean.  I think Curry is a better player, yes.  He plays on a better team also... but that means he has 2 teammates that are better than any of Kyrie's teammates.  Realistically Curry isn't even the best player on his team, and he has the luxury of letting his foot off the gas pedal and getting MVP-level and All-Star level support.  Also let's be real, GS has mailed in games.  If Kyrie takes his foot off the gas pedal we tend to lose, he has to be 100% on. 

-If Kyrie has similar numbers and other than shooting efficiency, better advanced stats and winning-oriented stats across the board,
-And if Curry has 2 teammates better than any of Kyrie's, Curry is better than Kyrie, and Durant is likely better than Curry himself,

Then I'd expect the Warriors to have a much better record + point differential than the Celtics to justify Curry making it over Kyrie with arguably worse numbers and the help of 2-3 all stars, vs. Kyrie pretty much going it alone.  But the difference in wins, to me, isn't big enough.  The Warriors have been mailing in games, and only have 49 wins and a +6.2 point differential vs the Celtics 43 wins and +5.0.

The Warriors aren't that much better than everyone this regular season.  Take Curry off the Warriors and they could still win the West (no Curry would mean Klay comes alive this year) but take Kyrie off the Celtics and I think we'd be lucky to make the playoffs.  To me, that's the understanding and the context of the numbers I need.  That Curry has more help than Kyrie, worse advanced stats, less pressure, and his team isn't lighting the world on fire this year.  Kyrie is like a mini Harden- he is the whole offense, and it would collapse without him, leaving the team in disarray with no replacement.

As an aside, I don't see how situation/context rewards Curry over Kyrie and yet we start PG13 over Durant.  It doesn't make sense to me.  Explanation?

I think his point is Curry's numbers are cannibalized by Durant.  In other words, if Durant wasn't there, Curry would be scoring 35 a game, be the unquestioned leader of a great team, etc.

Yeah that does makes sense, but the thing is, that didn't actually happen.  He does play with Durant, and what he actually accomplished was very similar to Kyrie for a team that might "only" win 60.  By this logic, why hasn't Curry won an MVP since Durant came, or even been close?  If Durant wasn't there I agree Curry would be going nuts, but if we don't approach MVP that way, why approach All-NBA teams that way?  Also, doesn't Durant cannibalize Curry?  So why is PG13 1st team?

It did actually happen.  Curry averaged over 30 ppg on a 73 win team the year before Durant came there, dropping Curry 5 ppg (though he has crept back up some the last couple of seasons).  Curry won back to back MVP's the 2 seasons before Durant, Durant joins the team and has been 6th and 10th in voting since.  Again proving the point, Curry is hurt by playing with Durant, whereas Irving doesn't have that issue. 

The fact that they are fairly close statistically when one guy is having his stats cannibalized when the other guy isn't, weighs heavily in favor of the player being cannibalized.

Yes it does, and the fact that he won back to back MVPs and then finished outside the top 5 since Durant shows that you get penalized come awards time for having an MVP caliber teammate unless your team is out of this world good.  Hence, Kyrie is in the mix here.

[Moranis]

For the poll I went with Kyrie over Curry. Obviously, I voted with my green glasses on, but I do believe he has been better this season.

As a staunch Kyrie defender and fan of the Celtics, I would like to agree with you but... Have you, like, seen Steph Curry?

Actually, if you look at the stats, Kyrie is having arguably just as good a year as Steph. Steph scores more because out of his 18 shots 12 are 3 pointers and out of Kyrie's 18 shots only 6 are 3 pointers. But otherwise, the stats are really very close.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&y1=2019&player_id1=irvinky01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Stephen+Curry&player_id2_select=Stephen+Curry&y2=2019&player_id2=curryst01&idx=players

You're right, their stats are pretty close. And I think Kyrie is, generally, loser to Curry than a lot of others do. I also think Curry is still clearly the better player. Taking his situation in GS and Kyrie's in Boston into consideration, it's hard for me to imagine anyone outside of Boston taking Kyrie over Curry here.

It's the three pointers. Kyrie shoots them at an nearly identical rate. If Kyrie shot 12 a game, every game, he would have 28 points a game too.

I think Steph is a better player. But I think they are having very similar years and have very similar value to their teams. I think it's a lot closer than most people think, this year anyway.

I agree. Kyrie higher Win Shares, WS/48, PER, VORP & Box +/- than Curry. Curry is a better player but the seasons are very close.  And it shouldn’t matter who the better player is, only the season. Durant is better than PG13 and yet it was PG13 named 1st team in the poll.

But again, taking into account each player's situation and understanding the context of those numbers, helps Curry's case. I think he's had, clearly, the better season.

As you are a very insightful poster here I'm curious to hear more, but I'd need clarity on what you mean.  I think Curry is a better player, yes.  He plays on a better team also... but that means he has 2 teammates that are better than any of Kyrie's teammates.  Realistically Curry isn't even the best player on his team, and he has the luxury of letting his foot off the gas pedal and getting MVP-level and All-Star level support.  Also let's be real, GS has mailed in games.  If Kyrie takes his foot off the gas pedal we tend to lose, he has to be 100% on. 

-If Kyrie has similar numbers and other than shooting efficiency, better advanced stats and winning-oriented stats across the board,
-And if Curry has 2 teammates better than any of Kyrie's, Curry is better than Kyrie, and Durant is likely better than Curry himself,

Then I'd expect the Warriors to have a much better record + point differential than the Celtics to justify Curry making it over Kyrie with arguably worse numbers and the help of 2-3 all stars, vs. Kyrie pretty much going it alone.  But the difference in wins, to me, isn't big enough.  The Warriors have been mailing in games, and only have 49 wins and a +6.2 point differential vs the Celtics 43 wins and +5.0.

The Warriors aren't that much better than everyone this regular season.  Take Curry off the Warriors and they could still win the West (no Curry would mean Klay comes alive this year) but take Kyrie off the Celtics and I think we'd be lucky to make the playoffs.  To me, that's the understanding and the context of the numbers I need.  That Curry has more help than Kyrie, worse advanced stats, less pressure, and his team isn't lighting the world on fire this year.  Kyrie is like a mini Harden- he is the whole offense, and it would collapse without him, leaving the team in disarray with no replacement.

As an aside, I don't see how situation/context rewards Curry over Kyrie and yet we start PG13 over Durant.  It doesn't make sense to me.  Explanation?

I think his point is Curry's numbers are cannibalized by Durant.  In other words, if Durant wasn't there, Curry would be scoring 35 a game, be the unquestioned leader of a great team, etc.

Yeah that does makes sense, but the thing is, that didn't actually happen.  He does play with Durant, and what he actually accomplished was very similar to Kyrie for a team that might "only" win 60.  By this logic, why hasn't Curry won an MVP since Durant came, or even been close?  If Durant wasn't there I agree Curry would be going nuts, but if we don't approach MVP that way, why approach All-NBA teams that way?  Also, doesn't Durant cannibalize Curry?  So why is PG13 1st team?

It did actually happen.  Curry averaged over 30 ppg on a 73 win team the year before Durant came there, dropping Curry 5 ppg (though he has crept back up some the last couple of seasons).  Curry won back to back MVP's the 2 seasons before Durant, Durant joins the team and has been 6th and 10th in voting since.  Again proving the point, Curry is hurt by playing with Durant, whereas Irving doesn't have that issue. 

The fact that they are fairly close statistically when one guy is having his stats cannibalized when the other guy isn't, weighs heavily in favor of the player being cannibalized.

Yes it does, and the fact that he won back to back MVPs and then finished outside the top 5 since Durant shows that you get penalized come awards time for having an MVP caliber teammate unless your team is out of this world good.  Hence, Kyrie is in the mix here.

Uh his numbers are lower than they were, but they are still on par with Irving, thus he would get the nod since he is clearly the better player (and the numbers are close). 

[Big333223]

For the poll I went with Kyrie over Curry. Obviously, I voted with my green glasses on, but I do believe he has been better this season.

As a staunch Kyrie defender and fan of the Celtics, I would like to agree with you but... Have you, like, seen Steph Curry?

Actually, if you look at the stats, Kyrie is having arguably just as good a year as Steph. Steph scores more because out of his 18 shots 12 are 3 pointers and out of Kyrie's 18 shots only 6 are 3 pointers. But otherwise, the stats are really very close.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&y1=2019&player_id1=irvinky01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Stephen+Curry&player_id2_select=Stephen+Curry&y2=2019&player_id2=curryst01&idx=players

You're right, their stats are pretty close. And I think Kyrie is, generally, loser to Curry than a lot of others do. I also think Curry is still clearly the better player. Taking his situation in GS and Kyrie's in Boston into consideration, it's hard for me to imagine anyone outside of Boston taking Kyrie over Curry here.

It's the three pointers. Kyrie shoots them at an nearly identical rate. If Kyrie shot 12 a game, every game, he would have 28 points a game too.

I think Steph is a better player. But I think they are having very similar years and have very similar value to their teams. I think it's a lot closer than most people think, this year anyway.

I agree. Kyrie higher Win Shares, WS/48, PER, VORP & Box +/- than Curry. Curry is a better player but the seasons are very close.  And it shouldn’t matter who the better player is, only the season. Durant is better than PG13 and yet it was PG13 named 1st team in the poll.

But again, taking into account each player's situation and understanding the context of those numbers, helps Curry's case. I think he's had, clearly, the better season.

As you are a very insightful poster here I'm curious to hear more, but I'd need clarity on what you mean.  I think Curry is a better player, yes.  He plays on a better team also... but that means he has 2 teammates that are better than any of Kyrie's teammates.  Realistically Curry isn't even the best player on his team, and he has the luxury of letting his foot off the gas pedal and getting MVP-level and All-Star level support.  Also let's be real, GS has mailed in games.  If Kyrie takes his foot off the gas pedal we tend to lose, he has to be 100% on. 

-If Kyrie has similar numbers and other than shooting efficiency, better advanced stats and winning-oriented stats across the board,
-And if Curry has 2 teammates better than any of Kyrie's, Curry is better than Kyrie, and Durant is likely better than Curry himself,

Then I'd expect the Warriors to have a much better record + point differential than the Celtics to justify Curry making it over Kyrie with arguably worse numbers and the help of 2-3 all stars, vs. Kyrie pretty much going it alone.  But the difference in wins, to me, isn't big enough.  The Warriors have been mailing in games, and only have 49 wins and a +6.2 point differential vs the Celtics 43 wins and +5.0.

The Warriors aren't that much better than everyone this regular season.  Take Curry off the Warriors and they could still win the West (no Curry would mean Klay comes alive this year) but take Kyrie off the Celtics and I think we'd be lucky to make the playoffs.  To me, that's the understanding and the context of the numbers I need.  That Curry has more help than Kyrie, worse advanced stats, less pressure, and his team isn't lighting the world on fire this year.  Kyrie is like a mini Harden- he is the whole offense, and it would collapse without him, leaving the team in disarray with no replacement.

As an aside, I don't see how situation/context rewards Curry over Kyrie and yet we start PG13 over Durant.  It doesn't make sense to me.  Explanation?

I think his point is Curry's numbers are cannibalized by Durant.  In other words, if Durant wasn't there, Curry would be scoring 35 a game, be the unquestioned leader of a great team, etc.

Basically, this.

Also, Draymond, who plays a lot of de facto PG for this teams. Curry's assist numbers would definitely be higher if Draymond went back to the role he had in '15.

Plus Curry's team is better. I know there's an argument that his team is better because he has better teammates (so doesn't get as much credit for the wins) but the better teammates mean lower stats (as has been argued) so even with the lowered stats by having better teammates, his numbers are as good or better than Kyrie's.

Similar stats on a better team. Curry is definitely over Kyrie this season, no question.