Author Topic: 2015 Patriots Football  (Read 150837 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: 2015 Patriots Football
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2015, 08:44:51 AM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33628
  • Tommy Points: 1546
... and the other guys still can't figure the Patriots out. Time for more rule changes? :P

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/09/11/headsets-werent-all-the-steelers-were-complaining-about-post-game/
I have no issue with that, but the headset stuff is a real problem and the fact that the Patriots didn't make sure they worked with all the stuff going on says they just don't care, which should be a problem.

My understanding is that the NFL is fully in charge of the headsets and the home team has nothing to do with it.
except the interference was caused by the stadium's power, which once resolved went away.  Of course, there is always something wrong with the headsets in New England, which is the greater issue and a sign of either pure incompetence or some sort of chicanery.  This is the Patriots, so I think it is safe to say it is the latter.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: 2015 Patriots Football
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2015, 09:11:58 AM »

Online Donoghus

  • Global Moderator
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31064
  • Tommy Points: 1616
  • What a Pub Should Be
Volin said it best this morning;  what is up with the AFC North teams always complaining about the Pats? Baltimore, now Pittsburgh.  The headset thing & the stunting on the goal-line?

Sounds like it was league provided equipment that failed due to weather/stadium infrastructure issues (whatever the heck that is) but the conspiracy theorists are already out saying the Pats are back at it again.  I'm also pretty sure that the league is responsible for testing out the radio frequencies and such ahead of time.   This sounds like an NFL problem and not a Patriots problem.

Thought the Pats played O.K.  I was actually impressed with how the young offensive line played.  That was a huge concern of mine heading in.   Running and passing game was pretty solid although I thought the play calling in the 4th got a little too cute when they could've gone for the dagger. 

Defensively, the pass defense was suspect and the running D had some issues.  Thought the pass rush was pretty good.


2010 CB Historical Draft - Best Overall Team

Re: 2015 Patriots Football
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2015, 09:21:36 AM »

Online knuckleballer

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6363
  • Tommy Points: 664
Volin said it best this morning;  what is up with the AFC North teams always complaining about the Pats? Baltimore, now Pittsburgh.  The headset thing & the stunting on the goal-line?

Sounds like it was league provided equipment that failed due to weather/stadium infrastructure issues (whatever the heck that is) but the conspiracy theorists are already out saying the Pats are back at it again.  I'm also pretty sure that the league is responsible for testing out the radio frequencies and such ahead of time.   This sounds like an NFL problem and not a Patriots problem.

Thought the Pats played O.K.  I was actually impressed with how the young offensive line played.  That was a huge concern of mine heading in.   Running and passing game was pretty solid although I thought the play calling in the 4th got a little too cute when they could've gone for the dagger. 

Defensively, the pass defense was suspect and the running D had some issues.  Thought the pass rush was pretty good.

"Sounds like it was league provided equipment that failed due to weather/stadium infrastructure issues (whatever the heck that is) but the conspiracy theorists are already out saying the Pats are back at it again.  I'm also pretty sure that the league is responsible for testing out the radio frequencies and such ahead of time.   This sounds like an NFL problem and not a Patriots problem."

Well said, TP

I wasn't disappointed with the play from the DBs other than a couple of plays from Chung.  Antonio Brown is an awesome receiver and Big Ben is one of the best QBs and he had all day to throw way too often.  I was disappointed with the front 7.  Their run defense was awful except within the ten yard line and I expected their pass rush to be improved, but it was mostly non existent.  The young offensive linemen were outstanding.

Re: 2015 Patriots Football
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2015, 09:29:39 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

  • NCE
  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4205
  • Tommy Points: 777
As someone with somewhat of a scientific background, all of this nonsense is so infuriating to me, both the conspiracy theory mentality and the complete stupidity and/or non-objectivity as well as susceptibility to confirmation bias and journalistic narrative momentum.


1. Conspiracy Theory Mentality. If I tell you that A leads to Z, then it is essentially always possible to find a path, no matter how twisted or unlikely. Additionally, it is usually impossible to fully disprove such an unlikely path. Think about vaccines -> Autism. If you start with that conclusion, it is nearly impossible to disprove. "Well its the thimersol." Disproven. "well it's the xxxx." Disproven. "Well, they're still bad because..." Impossible to disprove. But very powerful, and much more psychologically permanent then an open question, such as "Do vaccines lead to autism?" Demonstrably, no association. For deflategate: instead of "Were the balls deflated?" and first establishing that, then IF the answer were "yes," figuring out "how, who and why" from there, the "investigation" started with the question "how did the patriots intentionally deflate these balls?" Completely different story, completely different narrative, and completely different mode of investigation. It's the classic "How often to you beat your wife" rather than "Have you ever beaten your wife" rhetorical trick.

Back to A to Z, what if I instead asked "Where does A lead?" then followed the most likely and best evidence, you'd never end up at the conspiracy conclusion.

So, "How did the Pats derail the headphones?" is a completely implausible but leading question. It would presuppose that the patriots, under intense scrutiny already, are figuring out ways to very blatantly mess with technology provided by the NFL. Remember that previously home teams provided the technology, but due to LEAGUE WIDE suspicions (not just patriots) of home teams causing "problems," the league took over. The question should be, "what happened to the communications technology during that game." The answer has already been published: Both teams' gear was provided by NFL. Both teams had intermittent difficulties with communication requiring switching headsets, etc. Then NFL released a rapid statement explaining how weather, etc, was interfering. The losing team complained. Fine.

2. The confirmation bias. It's so basic, but so insidious. Once you have a conclusion you only accept the supporting information and discard the rest. Even more, you actively seek out supporting information and actively ignore conflicting information. Spygate: Ubiquitous practice. But that doesn't fit. So that recent OTL article only looks at the Pats' practice, which was legitimately illegal for about a season. Prior to that, common practice attempted around the league. But when you only look at the one team, you falsely give the impression that there was increased illegality. Additionally, you gloss over the fact that the Jets blew the whistle in revenge for the Pats' security KICKING OUT A JETS EMPLOYEE FOR DOING THE SAME THING A COUPLE WEEKS BEFORE. But not investigated. Deflategate: Because they started with the assumption of illegality, they went fishing for remote, loosely connected evidence. And they IGNORED BLATANT evidence of LEGALITY. There was excellent evidence of Brady asking for LEGAL inflation levels. Somehow twisted to evidence of illegality. It's as if if I were to set my cruise control for 65, it would be evidence of illegal speeding, because by wanting to be at upper limit of legal, I REALLY wanted to break the law.

3. One sided reporting. It's super fun and very easy (and lazy) to just pile on one narrative. It's harder, less sexy, and less exciting to do objective research. So, the Pats got in trouble for spygate. Yes. True. Paid the greatest consequence in NFL history to that point. Fine. So then you just go around asking teams "what weird or mysterious has happened at Foxboro or with the Patriots?" If that's the question, you get a lot of clicks, a lot of readers, but it's not research. Of course you get confirmatory stories that seem like a pattern! The best, but more difficult and less likely to get you readers would be to take time to: 1. Define Cheating. 2. Categorize different kinds of cheating (equipment, stadium, bending rules, drugs/substances, salary cap violations, etc). Then go back and report on known violations for each team. Then slowly take time and interview players about suspicious stuff at other stadiums. But ask both open ended, such as "what's the weirdest most suspicous behavior you have noticed?" and record that. Then spend some time, equal amounts of time, asking about each specific team to help reduce reporting bias. No one cares about Jacksonville, so no one is going to really volunteer information. But if you asked 50 players "what weird stuff such as headset malfunctions, etc have occurred when playing against the jaguars" then did that for all 32 teams, you'd get a much more accurate and objective measure of what goes on.

4. The idea that "bending the rules" or "finding the edge of rules" is cheating. This is ridiculous. It's lazy, sour grapes, and trying to legislate to protect laziness and stupidity. And it's a new phenomenon in the NFL. If there was this much internet and the Pats were this good 20 years ago, then the Pats probably would have been the first to try the fleaflicker, halfback pass, or the lateral to WR who then passes type of play. Then they probably would have outlawed that play Pittsburgh tried with the long lateral to Brown who then attempted to throw, or the Edelman playoff pass last year, because the Pats would have won and the opponents would have said "sure it's technically legal, but it's against the spirit of the foreward pass rules!" If the Pats had invented the WildCat and won the SB, they probably would have found a way to make that illegal.

Creativity within the rules used to be celebrated. It's how we got the West Coast Offense ("but they're passing too much, it's against the spirit of football!"), Wildcat variations, WR passes, fake-out punt returns, flea flickers, crazy blitzes, etc. But you win too much with legal creativity, gotta take it away.





http://yourteamcheats.com/

Re: 2015 Patriots Football
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2015, 09:31:06 AM »

Offline Eja117

  • NCE
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19274
  • Tommy Points: 1254
... and the other guys still can't figure the Patriots out. Time for more rule changes? :P

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/09/11/headsets-werent-all-the-steelers-were-complaining-about-post-game/
I have no issue with that, but the headset stuff is a real problem and the fact that the Patriots didn't make sure they worked with all the stuff going on says they just don't care, which should be a problem.

My understanding is that the NFL is fully in charge of the headsets and the home team has nothing to do with it.
except the interference was caused by the stadium's power, which once resolved went away.  Of course, there is always something wrong with the headsets in New England, which is the greater issue and a sign of either pure incompetence or some sort of chicanery.  This is the Patriots, so I think it is safe to say it is the latter.
Maybe if you spend ten million dollars and 4 months you can figure out that the Pats are generally aware of power issues in their stadium.

Re: 2015 Patriots Football
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2015, 09:31:48 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

  • NCE
  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4205
  • Tommy Points: 777
Volin said it best this morning;  what is up with the AFC North teams always complaining about the Pats? Baltimore, now Pittsburgh.  The headset thing & the stunting on the goal-line?

Sounds like it was league provided equipment that failed due to weather/stadium infrastructure issues (whatever the heck that is) but the conspiracy theorists are already out saying the Pats are back at it again.  I'm also pretty sure that the league is responsible for testing out the radio frequencies and such ahead of time.   This sounds like an NFL problem and not a Patriots problem.

Thought the Pats played O.K.  I was actually impressed with how the young offensive line played.  That was a huge concern of mine heading in.   Running and passing game was pretty solid although I thought the play calling in the 4th got a little too cute when they could've gone for the dagger. 

Defensively, the pass defense was suspect and the running D had some issues.  Thought the pass rush was pretty good.

Undrafted FA Center did pretty darn good. Was hoping for something closer to "dominance" from the front seven, given that the secondary was "solid," which is about what the most upside I'd expect from them. For the front 7, depends on Brown having a steep learning curve, Mayo getting back in top form, and Chander/Sheard/Ninkovich getting going.

Re: 2015 Patriots Football
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2015, 09:49:17 AM »

Online knuckleballer

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6363
  • Tommy Points: 664
As someone with somewhat of a scientific background, all of this nonsense is so infuriating to me, both the conspiracy theory mentality and the complete stupidity and/or non-objectivity as well as susceptibility to confirmation bias and journalistic narrative momentum.


1. Conspiracy Theory Mentality. If I tell you that A leads to Z, then it is essentially always possible to find a path, no matter how twisted or unlikely. Additionally, it is usually impossible to fully disprove such an unlikely path. Think about vaccines -> Autism. If you start with that conclusion, it is nearly impossible to disprove. "Well its the thimersol." Disproven. "well it's the xxxx." Disproven. "Well, they're still bad because..." Impossible to disprove. But very powerful, and much more psychologically permanent then an open question, such as "Do vaccines lead to autism?" Demonstrably, no association. For deflategate: instead of "Were the balls deflated?" and first establishing that, then IF the answer were "yes," figuring out "how, who and why" from there, the "investigation" started with the question "how did the patriots intentionally deflate these balls?" Completely different story, completely different narrative, and completely different mode of investigation. It's the classic "How often to you beat your wife" rather than "Have you ever beaten your wife" rhetorical trick.

Back to A to Z, what if I instead asked "Where does A lead?" then followed the most likely and best evidence, you'd never end up at the conspiracy conclusion.

So, "How did the Pats derail the headphones?" is a completely implausible but leading question. It would presuppose that the patriots, under intense scrutiny already, are figuring out ways to very blatantly mess with technology provided by the NFL. Remember that previously home teams provided the technology, but due to LEAGUE WIDE suspicions (not just patriots) of home teams causing "problems," the league took over. The question should be, "what happened to the communications technology during that game." The answer has already been published: Both teams' gear was provided by NFL. Both teams had intermittent difficulties with communication requiring switching headsets, etc. Then NFL released a rapid statement explaining how weather, etc, was interfering. The losing team complained. Fine.

2. The confirmation bias. It's so basic, but so insidious. Once you have a conclusion you only accept the supporting information and discard the rest. Even more, you actively seek out supporting information and actively ignore conflicting information. Spygate: Ubiquitous practice. But that doesn't fit. So that recent OTL article only looks at the Pats' practice, which was legitimately illegal for about a season. Prior to that, common practice attempted around the league. But when you only look at the one team, you falsely give the impression that there was increased illegality. Additionally, you gloss over the fact that the Jets blew the whistle in revenge for the Pats' security KICKING OUT A JETS EMPLOYEE FOR DOING THE SAME THING A COUPLE WEEKS BEFORE. But not investigated. Deflategate: Because they started with the assumption of illegality, they went fishing for remote, loosely connected evidence. And they IGNORED BLATANT evidence of LEGALITY. There was excellent evidence of Brady asking for LEGAL inflation levels. Somehow twisted to evidence of illegality. It's as if if I were to set my cruise control for 65, it would be evidence of illegal speeding, because by wanting to be at upper limit of legal, I REALLY wanted to break the law.

3. One sided reporting. It's super fun and very easy (and lazy) to just pile on one narrative. It's harder, less sexy, and less exciting to do objective research. So, the Pats got in trouble for spygate. Yes. True. Paid the greatest consequence in NFL history to that point. Fine. So then you just go around asking teams "what weird or mysterious has happened at Foxboro or with the Patriots?" If that's the question, you get a lot of clicks, a lot of readers, but it's not research. Of course you get confirmatory stories that seem like a pattern! The best, but more difficult and less likely to get you readers would be to take time to: 1. Define Cheating. 2. Categorize different kinds of cheating (equipment, stadium, bending rules, drugs/substances, salary cap violations, etc). Then go back and report on known violations for each team. Then slowly take time and interview players about suspicious stuff at other stadiums. But ask both open ended, such as "what's the weirdest most suspicous behavior you have noticed?" and record that. Then spend some time, equal amounts of time, asking about each specific team to help reduce reporting bias. No one cares about Jacksonville, so no one is going to really volunteer information. But if you asked 50 players "what weird stuff such as headset malfunctions, etc have occurred when playing against the jaguars" then did that for all 32 teams, you'd get a much more accurate and objective measure of what goes on.

4. The idea that "bending the rules" or "finding the edge of rules" is cheating. This is ridiculous. It's lazy, sour grapes, and trying to legislate to protect laziness and stupidity. And it's a new phenomenon in the NFL. If there was this much internet and the Pats were this good 20 years ago, then the Pats probably would have been the first to try the fleaflicker, halfback pass, or the lateral to WR who then passes type of play. Then they probably would have outlawed that play Pittsburgh tried with the long lateral to Brown who then attempted to throw, or the Edelman playoff pass last year, because the Pats would have won and the opponents would have said "sure it's technically legal, but it's against the spirit of the foreward pass rules!" If the Pats had invented the WildCat and won the SB, they probably would have found a way to make that illegal.

Creativity within the rules used to be celebrated. It's how we got the West Coast Offense ("but they're passing too much, it's against the spirit of football!"), Wildcat variations, WR passes, fake-out punt returns, flea flickers, crazy blitzes, etc. But you win too much with legal creativity, gotta take it away.





http://yourteamcheats.com/

That's the best commentary I have read on the subject.  Well done.  TP

Re: 2015 Patriots Football
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2015, 09:50:04 AM »

Offline mef730

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4441
  • Tommy Points: 915
... and the other guys still can't figure the Patriots out. Time for more rule changes? :P

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/09/11/headsets-werent-all-the-steelers-were-complaining-about-post-game/

tl;dr: Steelers complain because Patriots followed the rules. Story at 11.

According to BR:

1) It's against the rules
2) Wait, maybe it's not against the rules
3) We know they do it from watching film yet we didn't adjust for it

Fan from VT:

I learned a lot of those heuristics in my behavioral finance class, by far the most useful course I took in business school. Let me also throw in Post hoc ergo propter hoc, or "after it, therefore, because of it." There's a difference between correlation and causation.

Mike

Re: 2015 Patriots Football
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2015, 09:58:45 AM »

Offline twistedrico

  • Derrick White
  • Posts: 272
  • Tommy Points: 22
I like the Bills next week over the Patriots. Their defense is much better than the Steelers. Brady will be very uncomfortable.

Re: 2015 Patriots Football
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2015, 10:13:45 AM »

Offline Evantime34

  • NCE
  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11942
  • Tommy Points: 764
  • Eagerly Awaiting the Next Fantasy Draft
I like the Bills next week over the Patriots. Their defense is much better than the Steelers. Brady will be very uncomfortable.
I'd take that bet. I don't trust the Bills offense to move the ball at all.

The Pats didn't get great pressure against the Steelers, but the Steelers offensive line is good and the Bills offensive line is terrible.
DKC:  Rockets
CB Draft: Memphis Grizz
Players: Klay Thompson, Jabari Parker, Aaron Gordon
Next 3 picks: 4.14, 4.15, 4.19

Re: 2015 Patriots Football
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2015, 10:22:58 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
Thought the Pats played O.K.  I was actually impressed with how the young offensive line played.  That was a huge concern of mine heading in.   Running and passing game was pretty solid although I thought the play calling in the 4th got a little too cute when they could've gone for the dagger. 

Defensively, the pass defense was suspect and the running D had some issues.  Thought the pass rush was pretty good.

Agreed -- They have three rookies on the offensive line, right (I watch the games on mute because Collinsworth and Kostas make my brain bleed)?
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: 2015 Patriots Football
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2015, 10:54:14 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
Thought the Pats played O.K.  I was actually impressed with how the young offensive line played.  That was a huge concern of mine heading in.   Running and passing game was pretty solid although I thought the play calling in the 4th got a little too cute when they could've gone for the dagger. 

Defensively, the pass defense was suspect and the running D had some issues.  Thought the pass rush was pretty good.

Agreed -- They have three rookies on the offensive line, right (I watch the games on mute because Collinsworth and Kostas make my brain bleed)?
Correct. Wendell was inactive today, so they started Andrews, Jackson and Mason. I thought the line held up phenomenally well. Other than that safety blitz, Brady had all day to throw the ball.

I was also pretty impressed with Dion Lewis. I could clearly see how he made Gray expendable.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: 2015 Patriots Football
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2015, 11:23:31 AM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9702
  • Tommy Points: 325
• Offensive line looked really good, especially considering its collective inexperience.
• Brady, Gronk, Edelman, Amendola, Chandler, and Lewis looked great.
• Disappointed with the pass rush, but that's been the case for, oh, years now.
• Malcom Butler needs to learn how to deflect a pass, not swing at it and miss (repeatedly).
• Patriots indeed got too cute in the last 8 minutes, trying too hard to control the clock instead of just continuing to play. This also has been going on for, oh, years now.
• When will the football world learn that the Prevent defense only prevents the defense from succeeding?
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

— C.S. Lewis

Re: 2015 Patriots Football
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2015, 11:39:13 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
Actually, looking at the OL snap breakdown, it seems Kline got almost as many as Jackson and Mason combined, so it seems we relied quite heavily on having a swing G.

Quote
OFFENSIVE LINE

C David Andrews -- 61 of 61

LT Nate Solder -- 57 of 61

G Josh Kline -- 54 of 61

RT Sebastian Vollmer -- 52 of 61

G Shaq Mason -- 36 of 61

G Tre' Jackson -- 35 of 61

OT Marcus Cannon -- 13 of 61
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: 2015 Patriots Football
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2015, 12:42:25 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
Is Gronk the NFL equivalent of Shaq?  Who else in the game has that sort of overwhelming physical dominance against defenders?
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain