Author Topic: #DeflateGate (Court of Appeals Reinstates Suspension)  (Read 600466 times)

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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2655 on: September 01, 2015, 10:44:23 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Well, one thing to know about the law is that when judges feel like the evidence is really poor (i.e. the case is a loser on the "merits") but they only have the authority to look at the procedure (i.e the "law"), they are much more inclined to invent creative reasons to invalidate the decision before them.  This is a sort of "legal fiction" that gets spun by judges. 

The decision says one thing, but the reasons for their decision may be between the lines.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2656 on: September 01, 2015, 10:45:49 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Brady has reportedly told the NFL he would not accept a suspension of any length and will not admit guilt, and would only accept punishment for not fully cooperating in Ted Wells痴 Deflategate investigation.

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/08/31/deflategate-nfl-settlement-offer-tom-brady

matches more what I thought, Brady never actually offered to accept a 1 game suspension, but only after the talks broke off his team carefully released a statement saying he would have accepted a 1 game suspension to make the NFL look like the bad guy.  Again classic negotiating through the press.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2657 on: September 01, 2015, 11:11:09 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Brady has reportedly told the NFL he would not accept a suspension of any length and will not admit guilt, and would only accept punishment for not fully cooperating in Ted Wells痴 Deflategate investigation.

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/08/31/deflategate-nfl-settlement-offer-tom-brady

matches more what I thought, Brady never actually offered to accept a 1 game suspension, but only after the talks broke off his team carefully released a statement saying he would have accepted a 1 game suspension to make the NFL look like the bad guy.  Again classic negotiating through the press.

Or he offered up the possibility of serving a 1 game suspension as part of a package the NFL would never accept. Tomaytoe Tohmahtoe, though.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2658 on: September 01, 2015, 11:13:12 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Seems like neither side ever really approached the negotiations with a willingness to make a competitive offer.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2659 on: September 01, 2015, 11:16:21 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Seems like neither side ever really approached the negotiations with a willingness to make a competitive offer.

I don't think settlement would've served either side given the circumstances of this case.


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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2660 on: September 01, 2015, 11:18:07 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Agreed -- as soon as Kraft backed off on his lawsuit it became extraordinarily unlikely.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2661 on: September 01, 2015, 11:33:03 AM »

Offline danglertx

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In the context of the Wells Report findings ("general awareness", "more likely than not", the PSI levels being off (as conceded in Wells Report)  by about 0.1 to 0.2 of a PSI), the schedule of fines for equipment violations set forth in the rule book, the high likelihood that any deflation was caused by operation of the ideal gas law, the "deflategate" texts from the two guys dated months before the Colts play-off game, that Brady never was found to ask for any balls below the 12.5 legal limit, that other equipment tampering has either been ignored or admonished with warning (Vikings heating balls), that refusal to turn over phones has only met wtih a fine (Brett Favre), to suggest the NFL's position of 3 games was just as reasonable as Brady's offer of a one game suspension, is nonsensical to me.

I still don't understand why people knock the "more likely than not" standard.  It's been the burden of proof in civil cases for literally hundreds of years.  It's hardly shocking, or worthy of criticism.

As for the other issues, you don't really examine the evidence at this stage.  It's not about who has the facts on their side.  Rather, it's about who has a stronger legal position.  Most experts concede that that is the NFL, although the Judge in this matter may rely on procedural issues to vacate the arbitration award.  (I'd be very surprised if the Judge made a finding that Goddell was partial, though.  That would essentially render that portion of the CBA meaningless, and Judges in general won't touch collectively bargained agreements).

So, yes, in terms of the strength of legal positions, the NFL's offer of 3 games is on par with Brady's offer of 1 game.

I think people generally knock it because this situation is like a criminal prosecution.  Civil disputes are usually about contract language or culpability not whether or not something happened.

Personally, I'm fine with the standard, I just don't think the NFL came anywhere close to meeting it.  In fact, it is no standard at all if you can dismiss all the evidence you don't like and turn your opinions into evidence on your side.  That is the inherent difficulty in letting one side do all the investigation, interviews, weighing of the evidence and handing out the penalties.  Add to that not letting the other side see evidence or cross the co-author of the report leads to this entire process being a sham and not an arbitration.

While people can say the NFLPA gave Goodell this power, they did not agree to waive all due process.  As far as I can tell, due process wasn't addressed in the CBA.  The NFL never said there wouldn't be due process and the NFLPA never waived it. 

With that said, I can't see the NFL prevailing.  If Berman agrees the NFL does not owe the NFLPA a fair process that would go against Federal Law which requires it.  If Berman allows Goodell to be a partial arbiter, it would go against Federal Law.  It would set the precedent that Goodell doesn't really even owe the players anything other than appearing before him during an arbitration hearing.  He wouldn't have to have an investigation, allow the players to cross anyone, or even pay attention in the arbitration hearing.  I can't see that happening.   Guess we will know by Friday. 

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2662 on: September 01, 2015, 11:35:16 AM »

Offline danglertx

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Agreed -- as soon as Kraft backed off on his lawsuit it became extraordinarily unlikely.

He never actually backed off on a lawsuit, he said he wouldn't go to the League's arbitration.  He could still sue the league for say, fraud or conspiracy to commit fraud.  I'm sure there are other things.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2663 on: September 01, 2015, 11:37:47 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Agreed -- as soon as Kraft backed off on his lawsuit it became extraordinarily unlikely.

He never actually backed off on a lawsuit, he said he wouldn't go to the League's arbitration.  He could still sue the league for say, fraud or conspiracy to commit fraud.  I'm sure there are other things.

Kraft's not going to do anything, IMO.


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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2664 on: September 01, 2015, 11:40:08 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Correct. He gave up when he decided not to appeal the league's fine, not that it was ever in doubt what he would do -- this is a guy who left his wife's deathbed to work on labor negotiations. He's not going to rock the boat.

This is also the reason Goodell isn't going to get fired. The NFL doesn't care about anything other than 'the integrity of the shield' and if people are focused on how bad Goodell is at his job, rather than, say, how the league exploits communities for their own financial gain, the shield is fine.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2665 on: September 01, 2015, 11:41:18 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Correct. He gave up when he decided not to appeal the league's fine, not that it was ever in doubt -- this is a guy who left his wife's deathbed to work on labor negotiations. He's not going to rock the boat.

There's also the legacy thing too.  Hall of Fame as well as his son eventually taking over the team. 


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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2666 on: September 01, 2015, 11:41:55 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Ah! Too fast response!
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2667 on: September 01, 2015, 11:42:58 AM »

Offline Jon

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If Brady wins, I'd like to see Kraft sue the NFL, if for no other reason than to blow this thing up so much that the other owners have no other choice but to fire Goodell.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2668 on: September 01, 2015, 11:46:51 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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If Brady wins, I'd like to see Kraft sue the NFL, if for no other reason than to blow this thing up so much that the other owners have no other choice but to fire Goodell.

The unfortunate thing is that even if Brady wins this thing, his team is most likely still going to be out that 1st & 4th rounder and a million bucks.   It was just look even more ridiculous.

I just can't see Kraft rocking the ship with a lawsuit.  Once the Brady part of Deflategate is put to bed, I think that's it. 


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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2669 on: September 01, 2015, 11:56:58 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Seems like neither side ever really approached the negotiations with a willingness to make a competitive offer.

I don't think settlement would've served either side given the circumstances of this case.

The NFL dug themselves a pretty deep trench, yeah.
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