Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[Donoghus]

I draw conclusions about playoff success from past playoffs more than I do meaningless regular season games.
There’s something wrong with the make up of this core when it comes to crunch time close games and it only gets worse the bigger the game is so unless they can front run and dominate there way to a title im not loving there chances
[ / :)quote]
You don't believe that the core of the team is fundamentally different this season?

I asked ScarryJerry earlier in the thread, but I'd put it to everyone else talking about their performance in last year's playoffs as well: do you feel that the core of the team is fundamentally different from last year through 75+ games? If not, why not?

The personnel has changed a lot…….Proof is in the playoffs.

Bingo 

So if the proof is in the playoffs, why is this thread getting bumped after every loss during the Celtics (excellent) regular season?

Probably because its been modified to also be a critigue or defend thread and not just an outright call to fire the guy.

The title may have been modified, but the thread seems the same as it always has been. Luckily the playoffs will be here soon enough.

You can always avoid it if you don't like it.

[Goldstar88]

I draw conclusions about playoff success from past playoffs more than I do meaningless regular season games.
There’s something wrong with the make up of this core when it comes to crunch time close games and it only gets worse the bigger the game is so unless they can front run and dominate there way to a title im not loving there chances
[ / :)quote]
You don't believe that the core of the team is fundamentally different this season?

I asked ScarryJerry earlier in the thread, but I'd put it to everyone else talking about their performance in last year's playoffs as well: do you feel that the core of the team is fundamentally different from last year through 75+ games? If not, why not?

The personnel has changed a lot…….Proof is in the playoffs.

Bingo 

So if the proof is in the playoffs, why is this thread getting bumped after every loss during the Celtics (excellent) regular season?

Probably because its been modified to also be a critigue or defend thread and not just an outright call to fire the guy.

The title may have been modified, but the thread seems the same as it always has been. Luckily the playoffs will be here soon enough.

You can always avoid it if you don't like it.

Has nothing to do with liking it or not. I was just looking for clarification as to why there is so much concern with the infrequent regular season losses if the proof is in the playoffs.

The Miami Heat are a prime example of this. Mediocre regular season last year and then they make the Finals.

[Roy H.]

I draw conclusions about playoff success from past playoffs more than I do meaningless regular season games.
There’s something wrong with the make up of this core when it comes to crunch time close games and it only gets worse the bigger the game is so unless they can front run and dominate there way to a title im not loving there chances
[ / :)quote]
You don't believe that the core of the team is fundamentally different this season?

I asked ScarryJerry earlier in the thread, but I'd put it to everyone else talking about their performance in last year's playoffs as well: do you feel that the core of the team is fundamentally different from last year through 75+ games? If not, why not?

The personnel has changed a lot…….Proof is in the playoffs.

Bingo 

So if the proof is in the playoffs, why is this thread getting bumped after every loss during the Celtics (excellent) regular season?

Probably because its been modified to also be a critigue or defend thread and not just an outright call to fire the guy.

The title may have been modified, but the thread seems the same as it always has been. Luckily the playoffs will be here soon enough.

You can always avoid it if you don't like it.

Has nothing to do with liking it or not. I was just looking for clarification as to why there is so much concern with the infrequent regular season losses if the proof is in the playoffs.

The Miami Heat are a prime example of this. Mediocre regular season last year and then they make the Finals.

Nobody is complaining about the overall result, though. They are discussing what they see as poor coaching decisions.

You seem to live in a reality where a win means that there's no room for criticism of anybody. You are now demanding that same standard even during losses because it has been a successful regular season. It's a bizarre take to me.

I mean, respectfully, this thread is over 100 pages and I'm not sure that you have made one meaningful or relevant comment.

[mobilija]

I draw conclusions about playoff success from past playoffs more than I do meaningless regular season games.
There’s something wrong with the make up of this core when it comes to crunch time close games and it only gets worse the bigger the game is so unless they can front run and dominate there way to a title im not loving there chances

You don't believe that the core of the team is fundamentally different this season?

I asked ScarryJerry earlier in the thread, but I'd put it to everyone else talking about their performance in last year's playoffs as well: do you feel that the core of the team is fundamentally different from last year through 75+ games? If not, why not?

The personnel has changed a lot.  The "core" is still Tatum and JB, though.  And, we're still coached by the same guy.  So, it's pretty fair for fans to take a "show me" approach.  For all the talk about how we're a different team this year, we had a very successful regular season last year, as well.  Proof is in the playoffs.

Still the same two best players, yes. And the same coach. But all of them have improved their game, Tatum to a lesser extent. Add significant improvement from White, Pritchard and Hauser. Upgrade Rwill, GWill and Smart to Porzingis and Jrue. I think it all adds up to a significant change.

The regular season has been better than last years as well. Both sported the great off/def/net ratings mentioned before but this year is far more consistent. 2nd half of last year saw way more games where they lost focus, played tight and lost leads. That bled into the playoffs. Much less of that this year, more varied offensive play and more consistent defensive effort. All of which bodes well for improved play in this years playoffs. But, of course, we will see.

Based on history, not only from last year but the Js entire tenure, there is reason to be doubtful. But based on the present, there is reason for optimism.

[Vermont Green]

I don’t understand what the debate is regarding how the team is different from last season. The obvious is we have two new all star level starters (Holiday and Porzingis) who replace good but lesser players (Smart and RWill). Our coach is in a much better situation and has much better and more bought in assistants. So better players and better coaches. How is there any debate about this?

This doesn’t mean we make the finals or win a title but it sure helps our chances.

[Indocelts]

If we can't critize Joe, then we can't critize Tatum, Brown or any other players, what is the purpose of this forum then?

This thread has been there for 2 seasons. Some of the things that we critized last season are still there with Joe, though some to a lesser degree.

Yes, the playoff will give us the answer. But last year playoff didn't go well, so fans are worried that history will repeat itself.

[Phantom255x]

Question, I know some of the people who left were Ime Udoka's guys. But last offseason they added a bunch of assistant coaches and other assistants as well as JVG to aid Mazzulla and give him his own staff. Umm... are they actually guiding Mazzulla or getting in his ear about stuff? Because if not, what was the point? I thought they were supposed to theoretically help Mazzulla unless you're telling me Mazzulla doesn't listen to them or they are sort of "hands off". I mean, can't JVG or Cassell tell Mazzulla to draw up non-Tatum plays, or shoot less 3s, etc.?

I just think this organization has a reliance on the 3-ball and analytics and this existed even with Ime + Stevens. People hype up Ime a ton in 2022 and yes, they made the Finals. But it wasn't like they got there easily, they took their foot off the gas pedal a lot, blew pivotal games and then come Finals were also outcoached and exposed in certain areas (ex. drop coverage). And even that season I remember people truly wanted to fire Ime after a rough start to 2021-2022.

[Roy H.]

Question, I know some of the people who left were Ime Udoka's guys. But last offseason they added a bunch of assistant coaches and other assistants as well as JVG to aid Mazzulla and give him his own staff. Umm... are they actually guiding Mazzulla or getting in his ear about stuff? Because if not, what was the point? I thought they were supposed to theoretically help Mazzulla unless you're telling me Mazzulla doesn't listen to them or they are sort of "hands off". I mean, can't JVG or Cassell tell Mazzulla to draw up non-Tatum plays, or shoot less 3s, etc.?

It's hard to tell from watching on TV, but the assistants don't seem particularly active in game.  But, I'm sure there are times that the assistants speak with Joe during games.

Primarily, though, their job seems to be working with players during practice.  I have no idea how much they help determine the game plan.

[Silas]

Bucks lost to the Wizards... maybe it's time to fire Doc.

[Roy H.]

Bucks lost to the Wizards... maybe it's time to fire Doc.

They probably should. 

[SHAQATTACK]

Doc don’t care about winning . His bank account wins every time he fools another GM and steals more more money from another desperate organization .

Old Last Ditch Doc .

[SHAQATTACK]

A win tonight vs OKC  would help cement Joe’s reputation . Difficult game , possibly OT that might be decided who by coaches the better game and makes the less mistakes.

[Kernewek]

Question, I know some of the people who left were Ime Udoka's guys. But last offseason they added a bunch of assistant coaches and other assistants as well as JVG to aid Mazzulla and give him his own staff. Umm... are they actually guiding Mazzulla or getting in his ear about stuff? Because if not, what was the point? I thought they were supposed to theoretically help Mazzulla unless you're telling me Mazzulla doesn't listen to them or they are sort of "hands off". I mean, can't JVG or Cassell tell Mazzulla to draw up non-Tatum plays, or shoot less 3s, etc.?

I just think this organization has a reliance on the 3-ball and analytics and this existed even with Ime + Stevens. People hype up Ime a ton in 2022 and yes, they made the Finals. But it wasn't like they got there easily, they took their foot off the gas pedal a lot, blew pivotal games and then come Finals were also outcoached and exposed in certain areas (ex. drop coverage). And even that season I remember people truly wanted to fire Ime after a rough start to 2021-2022.

I think this is an interesting split between we're actually observing versus what we perhaps want to be observing.

You're making one presumption and two assumptions:
Presumption: That the team is going to play differently after JVG & the assistants come in
Assumption: That the team is going to rely less on '3-ball and analytics' because of JVG & the assistants.
Assumption: That JVG & the assistants are 'obviously' going to tell Mazz that he needs to draw up fewer Tatum plays and shoot fewer threes.

What I don't understand is why we are refusing to entertain the idea that JVG and the coaching staffs are telling Mazz what they feel he needs to do with the team in order to maximise their chances of winning basketball games.

Many posters on the board have this tendency, and while it tends to run hand-in-hand with refusing to acknowledge that the offense is significantly different from what we had with Udoka, and (in more subtle ways, perhaps) different than last year, it also ignores the reality: we're winning a ton of games, so whatever the coaches are doing is clearly working.

If I am JVG, why am I going to say things that are going to lead to the Celtics winning fewer games? If I'm Sam Cassell, why am I going to say 'hey Jrue, back in my day, I used to get posted up by Mark Jackson he'd back me down for 15 seconds ' when the team is 59-16?

[Vermont Green]

Question, I know some of the people who left were Ime Udoka's guys. But last offseason they added a bunch of assistant coaches and other assistants as well as JVG to aid Mazzulla and give him his own staff. Umm... are they actually guiding Mazzulla or getting in his ear about stuff? Because if not, what was the point? I thought they were supposed to theoretically help Mazzulla unless you're telling me Mazzulla doesn't listen to them or they are sort of "hands off". I mean, can't JVG or Cassell tell Mazzulla to draw up non-Tatum plays, or shoot less 3s, etc.?

I just think this organization has a reliance on the 3-ball and analytics and this existed even with Ime + Stevens. People hype up Ime a ton in 2022 and yes, they made the Finals. But it wasn't like they got there easily, they took their foot off the gas pedal a lot, blew pivotal games and then come Finals were also outcoached and exposed in certain areas (ex. drop coverage). And even that season I remember people truly wanted to fire Ime after a rough start to 2021-2022.

I think this is an interesting split between we're actually observing versus what we perhaps want to be observing.

You're making one presumption and two assumptions:
Presumption: That the team is going to play differently after JVG & the assistants come in
Assumption: That the team is going to rely less on '3-ball and analytics' because of JVG & the assistants.
Assumption: That JVG & the assistants are 'obviously' going to tell Mazz that he needs to draw up fewer Tatum plays and shoot fewer threes.

What I don't understand is why we are refusing to entertain the idea that JVG and the coaching staffs are telling Mazz what they feel he needs to do with the team in order to maximise their chances of winning basketball games.

Many posters on the board have this tendency, and while it tends to run hand-in-hand with refusing to acknowledge that the offense is significantly different from what we had with Udoka, and (in more subtle ways, perhaps) different than last year, it also ignores the reality: we're winning a ton of games, so whatever the coaches are doing is clearly working.

If I am JVG, why am I going to say things that are going to lead to the Celtics winning fewer games? If I'm Sam Cassell, why am I going to say 'hey Jrue, back in my day, I used to get posted up by Mark Jackson he'd back me down for 15 seconds ' when the team is 59-16?

I think the main point about the new assistant coaches is that they would be more aligned with Mazzulla, more bought in to be on his staff, vs. those that thought they would be part of Udoka's staff but then got the rug pulled out from under them.

The team has a philosophy, that probably starts at the top with Stevens.  Stevens is going to hire a coach that reflects his core philosophies and then the coach is going to hire assistants that he feels will best support implementation of the philosophy.  I don't think any assistant coach was hired inject some different philosophy or to try and guide Mazzulla in a different direction.

As to Van Gundy, I have no idea what his role is or how much influence he is having on coaching decisions.  He has been remarkably quiet.  For all I know, he has been scouting college players or G-League players and not even interacting with Mazzulla.  It doesn't seem like he is involved with any discussions on what play to run at the end of games, but I have no way to know what he has been doing.

[Roy H.]

A win tonight vs OKC  would help cement Joe’s reputation . Difficult game , possibly OT that might be decided who by coaches the better game and makes the less mistakes.

Honestly the outcome of a regular season game won't reflect much on Joe's legacy.  It could help boost confidence, perhaps, but ultimately it's going to be meaningless from an evaluation standpoint.  The track record is established:  he can lead a team to wildly successful regular seasons, while his playoff performance has some question marks.