Author Topic: My take on the AL MVP race... Pedroia/Youk  (Read 15669 times)

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My take on the AL MVP race... Pedroia/Youk
« on: September 14, 2008, 08:44:34 PM »

Offline Big Ticket

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Re: My take on the AL MVP race... Pedroia/Youk
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2008, 09:02:40 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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If Minny doesn't make the playoffs Morneau stands little to no chance of winning.

As much as I hate to say it, K-Rod is the AL MVP. He's as deserving as Hernandez or Eckersley was in the years they won it and not one AL player is putting up the type of "Wow, oh my god, he has to be the MVP!" offensive numbers that warrant them getting it over a guy who as been as dominant late in games as K-Rod has been for the Angels, who will probably have the best record in the game.

Re: My take on the AL MVP race... Pedroia/Youk
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2008, 09:21:25 PM »

Offline Big Ticket

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If Minny doesn't make the playoffs Morneau stands little to no chance of winning.

As much as I hate to say it, K-Rod is the AL MVP. He's as deserving as Hernandez or Eckersley was in the years they won it and not one AL player is putting up the type of "Wow, oh my god, he has to be the MVP!" offensive numbers that warrant them getting it over a guy who as been as dominant late in games as K-Rod has been for the Angels, who will probably have the best record in the game.

I can agree with your first one, to a point.  He definitely has better than "little to no chance" if they barely miss the playoffs.

I could not disagree more with your second point however.  KRod has been the 5th best closer in the AL and will not even win the Cy Young (if the voters remember to lay off the dope before voting).  If he was so valuable, then why is it a foregone conclusion that the Angels won't match his likely price tag in free agency this offseason?  The closer role is definitely overrated in terms of value.  The Angels lock down 7th/8th inning bullpen guys (Arredondo, Shields, Oliver) are just as valuable.


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Re: My take on the AL MVP race... Pedroia/Youk
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2008, 09:35:36 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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If Minny doesn't make the playoffs Morneau stands little to no chance of winning.

As much as I hate to say it, K-Rod is the AL MVP. He's as deserving as Hernandez or Eckersley was in the years they won it and not one AL player is putting up the type of "Wow, oh my god, he has to be the MVP!" offensive numbers that warrant them getting it over a guy who as been as dominant late in games as K-Rod has been for the Angels, who will probably have the best record in the game.

I can agree with your first one, to a point.  He definitely has better than "little to no chance" if they barely miss the playoffs.

I could not disagree more with your second point however.  KRod has been the 5th best closer in the AL and will not even win the Cy Young (if the voters remember to lay off the dope before voting).  If he was so valuable, then why is it a foregone conclusion that the Angels won't match his likely price tag in free agency this offseason?  The closer role is definitely overrated in terms of value.  The Angels lock down 7th/8th inning bullpen guys (Arredondo, Shields, Oliver) are just as valuable.
Oh, I don't necessarily disagree with you about K-Rod. I don't think closers should win MVPs. But considering the hoopla over the saves record, the fact that relievers have won it in other years when they had great years and when there wasn't really a runaway everyday player available to vote for, that the electorate doesn't always get to see every guy play a lot and many times votes solely on stats for players on contenders, I think K-Rod stands areally good chance.

I wouldn't vote for him, I just think a ton of people will.

And the reason the Angels might not resign him is because they know they have abused this kid's arm over the last 6 years to the point that they feel pretty strongly tha he will probably be breaking down real soon. That's smart business.

Re: My take on the AL MVP race... Pedroia/Youk
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2008, 10:27:06 PM »

Offline Redz

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There's no way to discredit 58 saves, but K-Rod has had no where near the dominant season Eck had in MVP year.  In fact Eck had better statistical years in `89 and `90 with WHIPs in the 0.60 range.  He walked 3 and 4 guys a year! 

I'd also point to Mariano Rivera as actually having a better season than K-Rod this year.

K-Rod's had a great season, but he's also had a freakish amount of save opportunities. For me, a closer better have a [dang] near perfect season to win the MVP and I don't see where K-Rod stacks up as perfect.  His WHIP is 1.27

Pedroia's the MVP
Yup

Re: My take on the AL MVP race... Pedroia/Youk
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2008, 11:30:45 PM »

Offline Big Ticket

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There's no way to discredit 58 saves, but K-Rod has had no where near the dominant season Eck had in MVP year.  In fact Eck had better statistical years in `89 and `90 with WHIPs in the 0.60 range.  He walked 3 and 4 guys a year! 

I'd also point to Mariano Rivera as actually having a better season than K-Rod this year.

K-Rod's had a great season, but he's also had a freakish amount of save opportunities. For me, a closer better have a [dang] near perfect season to win the MVP and I don't see where K-Rod stacks up as perfect.  His WHIP is 1.27

Pedroia's the MVP

As seen in my blog post, I clearly respect Pedroia's season.  But one thing I think that keeps him from deserving the MVP is the fact that he is having similar, if not worse seasons than guys like Markakis, Kinsler (even missing so many games recently), and even Granderson to an extent.  Nobody in their right mind is even muttering their names for MVP, and the only thing that separates Pedroia is he's in Boston.  The same comparison can't be said about Morneau because the players with similar numbers but on bad teams will still be in the MVP discussion at least (Hamilton, ARod, Cabrera, Huff).

The only conclusion to be made from this is that the big run producers are considered more valuable, and unless an nontraditional MVP candidate, like Pedroia, is on a really good team, they'll be overlooked.


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Re: My take on the AL MVP race... Pedroia/Youk
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2008, 10:07:38 AM »

Offline Redz

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There's no way to discredit 58 saves, but K-Rod has had no where near the dominant season Eck had in MVP year.  In fact Eck had better statistical years in `89 and `90 with WHIPs in the 0.60 range.  He walked 3 and 4 guys a year! 

I'd also point to Mariano Rivera as actually having a better season than K-Rod this year.

K-Rod's had a great season, but he's also had a freakish amount of save opportunities. For me, a closer better have a [dang] near perfect season to win the MVP and I don't see where K-Rod stacks up as perfect.  His WHIP is 1.27

Pedroia's the MVP

As seen in my blog post, I clearly respect Pedroia's season.  But one thing I think that keeps him from deserving the MVP is the fact that he is having similar, if not worse seasons than guys like Markakis, Kinsler (even missing so many games recently), and even Granderson to an extent.  Nobody in their right mind is even muttering their names for MVP, and the only thing that separates Pedroia is he's in Boston.  The same comparison can't be said about Morneau because the players with similar numbers but on bad teams will still be in the MVP discussion at least (Hamilton, ARod, Cabrera, Huff).

The only conclusion to be made from this is that the big run producers are considered more valuable, and unless an nontraditional MVP candidate, like Pedroia, is on a really good team, they'll be overlooked.

BT, you can go beyond the stats a bit for what Pedroia has meant to this team (I know I used stats in my argument against K-Rod).  The guy has pretty much carries a team that has been in a state of chaos with much of its lineup missing and its long time cleanup hitting star being shipped out of town.  He has played a stellar second base, and if they gave an MVP for "moxy" he'd win it.  The team has rallied around this guy.  I don't have any statistical evidence to bear it out but I'd be willing to guarantee Pedroia has more big hits than any one you mentioned. 
Yup

Re: My take on the AL MVP race... Pedroia/Youk
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2008, 10:18:37 AM »

Offline SShorefan 3.0

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The Red Sox players will equal each other out in the vote getting and K-Rod will win.  If someone reaches 60+ saves, it's hard to argue that in a year in which we've seen the offensive numbers come back to earth.

If you didn't see Nick Cafardo's piece yesterday, you have to check out this link.  If this trend becomes the norm, it bodes well for Jim Rice and paints an ugly picture of the last 20 years.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/graphics/09_14_08_notes/
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Re: My take on the AL MVP race... Pedroia/Youk
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2008, 10:33:51 AM »

Offline Redz

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Just so I can satisfy myself with my feeble attempt at pointing out that Mo Rivera is having a better season than Frankie Rodriguez

Rivera 64.3 IP, 35 S, 73 K,  6 BB, 39 HA, 1.54 ERA, 0.699 WHIP
K-Rod  64.3 IP, 58 S, 74 K, 32 BB, 50 HA, 2.38 ERA, 1.275 WHIP

He's just had more opportunities for saves.
Yup

Re: My take on the AL MVP race... Pedroia/Youk
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2008, 10:40:03 AM »

Offline Big Ticket

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There's no way to discredit 58 saves, but K-Rod has had no where near the dominant season Eck had in MVP year.  In fact Eck had better statistical years in `89 and `90 with WHIPs in the 0.60 range.  He walked 3 and 4 guys a year! 

I'd also point to Mariano Rivera as actually having a better season than K-Rod this year.

K-Rod's had a great season, but he's also had a freakish amount of save opportunities. For me, a closer better have a [dang] near perfect season to win the MVP and I don't see where K-Rod stacks up as perfect.  His WHIP is 1.27

Pedroia's the MVP

As seen in my blog post, I clearly respect Pedroia's season.  But one thing I think that keeps him from deserving the MVP is the fact that he is having similar, if not worse seasons than guys like Markakis, Kinsler (even missing so many games recently), and even Granderson to an extent.  Nobody in their right mind is even muttering their names for MVP, and the only thing that separates Pedroia is he's in Boston.  The same comparison can't be said about Morneau because the players with similar numbers but on bad teams will still be in the MVP discussion at least (Hamilton, ARod, Cabrera, Huff).

The only conclusion to be made from this is that the big run producers are considered more valuable, and unless an nontraditional MVP candidate, like Pedroia, is on a really good team, they'll be overlooked.

BT, you can go beyond the stats a bit for what Pedroia has meant to this team (I know I used stats in my argument against K-Rod).  The guy has pretty much carries a team that has been in a state of chaos with much of its lineup missing and its long time cleanup hitting star being shipped out of town.  He has played a stellar second base, and if they gave an MVP for "moxy" he'd win it.  The team has rallied around this guy.  I don't have any statistical evidence to bear it out but I'd be willing to guarantee Pedroia has more big hits than any one you mentioned. 

Well, Pedroia has been tremendous in 'Close and Late' situations (.384 BA, .996 OPS, 1 HR, 13 RBI) but he is not too far ahead of Morneau in that area (.301/.843, 4 HR, 14 RBI).  When you look at other 'big hit' situations, Morneau blows the little guy out of the water.  RISP w/ 2 outs - Pedroia (.234/.723, 1 HR, 24 RBI) vs. Morneau (.366/1.153, 2 HR, 36 RBI) and just RISP - Pedroia (.306/.831) vs. Morneau (.373/1.123).

Not trying to make a blanket claim for Sox fans here... but there's a lot of truth to the fact that some Red Sox fans (or Yankees or Mets etc) aren't extremely concerned with what other teams are doing, especially little $50 mil salary cap teams in Minnesota.  Don't make the mistake of sounding ignorant when comparing one of your favorites with the little teams out there.


"It ain't about me.  It's about us."  - KG, interview with John Thompson, 2005 All Star Game.

Re: My take on the AL MVP race... Pedroia/Youk
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2008, 10:42:19 AM »

Offline Big Ticket

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Just so I can satisfy myself with my feeble attempt at pointing out that Mo Rivera is having a better season than Frankie Rodriguez

Rivera 64.3 IP, 35 S, 73 K,  6 BB, 39 HA, 1.54 ERA, 0.699 WHIP
K-Rod  64.3 IP, 58 S, 74 K, 32 BB, 50 HA, 2.38 ERA, 1.275 WHIP

He's just had more opportunities for saves.

You can add Joe Nathan (not that you've ever heard of him  ;)) Joakim Soira (or him), and Papelbon (I know you've heard of him) to the list of AL closers who are pitching better than KRod this season.  That is my huge complaint about him getting MVP votes... he's not winning the Cy Young, and has been the 5th best closer.... how is that MVP worthy??!!?!?


"It ain't about me.  It's about us."  - KG, interview with John Thompson, 2005 All Star Game.

Re: My take on the AL MVP race... Pedroia/Youk
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2008, 10:48:12 AM »

Offline Redz

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There's no way to discredit 58 saves, but K-Rod has had no where near the dominant season Eck had in MVP year.  In fact Eck had better statistical years in `89 and `90 with WHIPs in the 0.60 range.  He walked 3 and 4 guys a year! 

I'd also point to Mariano Rivera as actually having a better season than K-Rod this year.

K-Rod's had a great season, but he's also had a freakish amount of save opportunities. For me, a closer better have a [dang] near perfect season to win the MVP and I don't see where K-Rod stacks up as perfect.  His WHIP is 1.27

Pedroia's the MVP

As seen in my blog post, I clearly respect Pedroia's season.  But one thing I think that keeps him from deserving the MVP is the fact that he is having similar, if not worse seasons than guys like Markakis, Kinsler (even missing so many games recently), and even Granderson to an extent.  Nobody in their right mind is even muttering their names for MVP, and the only thing that separates Pedroia is he's in Boston.  The same comparison can't be said about Morneau because the players with similar numbers but on bad teams will still be in the MVP discussion at least (Hamilton, ARod, Cabrera, Huff).

The only conclusion to be made from this is that the big run producers are considered more valuable, and unless an nontraditional MVP candidate, like Pedroia, is on a really good team, they'll be overlooked.

BT, you can go beyond the stats a bit for what Pedroia has meant to this team (I know I used stats in my argument against K-Rod).  The guy has pretty much carries a team that has been in a state of chaos with much of its lineup missing and its long time cleanup hitting star being shipped out of town.  He has played a stellar second base, and if they gave an MVP for "moxy" he'd win it.  The team has rallied around this guy.  I don't have any statistical evidence to bear it out but I'd be willing to guarantee Pedroia has more big hits than any one you mentioned. 

Well, Pedroia has been tremendous in 'Close and Late' situations (.384 BA, .996 OPS, 1 HR, 13 RBI) but he is not too far ahead of Morneau in that area (.301/.843, 4 HR, 14 RBI).  When you look at other 'big hit' situations, Morneau blows the little guy out of the water.  RISP w/ 2 outs - Pedroia (.234/.723, 1 HR, 24 RBI) vs. Morneau (.366/1.153, 2 HR, 36 RBI) and just RISP - Pedroia (.306/.831) vs. Morneau (.373/1.123).

Not trying to make a blanket claim for Sox fans here... but there's a lot of truth to the fact that some Red Sox fans (or Yankees or Mets etc) aren't extremely concerned with what other teams are doing, especially little $50 mil salary cap teams in Minnesota.  Don't make the mistake of sounding ignorant when comparing one of your favorites with the little teams out there.

BT, I hear you about Boston fans having blinders for their heroes.  You'll be proud to know I did not partake in the "MVP" Chants at the game i went to last week (and even prouder to know that I sat out the wave).  The MVP chants have gotten a bit overdone, and the Wave just plain sucks.

I've certainly seen a lot more of Pedroia than I have Morneau, so I can judge the non-stat type things a lot better with him than guys from other teams.  All I can say is, you'd need to have seen what the guy has done on a daily basis to truly appreciate it.  A lot of times, his big hits are merely table setters that are breakthrough hits against a pitcher who has been giving the Sox hitters fits all night.

But, yeh, I'm taking the "tie goes to the hometown guy" approach here I suppose.  Your point is taken.
Yup

Re: My take on the AL MVP race... Pedroia/Youk
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2008, 10:50:18 AM »

Offline Redz

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Just so I can satisfy myself with my feeble attempt at pointing out that Mo Rivera is having a better season than Frankie Rodriguez

Rivera 64.3 IP, 35 S, 73 K,  6 BB, 39 HA, 1.54 ERA, 0.699 WHIP
K-Rod  64.3 IP, 58 S, 74 K, 32 BB, 50 HA, 2.38 ERA, 1.275 WHIP

He's just had more opportunities for saves.

You can add Joe Nathan (not that you've ever heard of him  ;)) Joakim Soira (or him), and Papelbon (I know you've heard of him) to the list of AL closers who are pitching better than KRod this season.  That is my huge complaint about him getting MVP votes... he's not winning the Cy Young, and has been the 5th best closer.... how is that MVP worthy??!!?!?

I just look at Rivera's numbers and marvel at them.  That's an amazing season.
Yup

Re: My take on the AL MVP race... Pedroia/Youk
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2008, 10:57:15 AM »

Offline Redz

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And actually BT, I've always had a soft spot for Joe Nathan.  I drafted him in about the 28th round of this keeper league I was in when he was making his comeback with the Giants.  I hung on to him, and he worked out pretty well!  My heart bled with you all when he was forced to pitch way too much against the Yankees in the playoffs a few years back. I forget the actual circumstances, but he was running on fumes and eventually lost a game the Twins should have won (I believe it was a clincher too)

I'm a fan of Joe Nathan's.
Yup

Re: My take on the AL MVP race... Pedroia/Youk
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2008, 11:07:48 AM »

Offline Big Ticket

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There's no way to discredit 58 saves, but K-Rod has had no where near the dominant season Eck had in MVP year.  In fact Eck had better statistical years in `89 and `90 with WHIPs in the 0.60 range.  He walked 3 and 4 guys a year! 

I'd also point to Mariano Rivera as actually having a better season than K-Rod this year.

K-Rod's had a great season, but he's also had a freakish amount of save opportunities. For me, a closer better have a [dang] near perfect season to win the MVP and I don't see where K-Rod stacks up as perfect.  His WHIP is 1.27

Pedroia's the MVP

As seen in my blog post, I clearly respect Pedroia's season.  But one thing I think that keeps him from deserving the MVP is the fact that he is having similar, if not worse seasons than guys like Markakis, Kinsler (even missing so many games recently), and even Granderson to an extent.  Nobody in their right mind is even muttering their names for MVP, and the only thing that separates Pedroia is he's in Boston.  The same comparison can't be said about Morneau because the players with similar numbers but on bad teams will still be in the MVP discussion at least (Hamilton, ARod, Cabrera, Huff).

The only conclusion to be made from this is that the big run producers are considered more valuable, and unless an nontraditional MVP candidate, like Pedroia, is on a really good team, they'll be overlooked.

BT, you can go beyond the stats a bit for what Pedroia has meant to this team (I know I used stats in my argument against K-Rod).  The guy has pretty much carries a team that has been in a state of chaos with much of its lineup missing and its long time cleanup hitting star being shipped out of town.  He has played a stellar second base, and if they gave an MVP for "moxy" he'd win it.  The team has rallied around this guy.  I don't have any statistical evidence to bear it out but I'd be willing to guarantee Pedroia has more big hits than any one you mentioned. 

Well, Pedroia has been tremendous in 'Close and Late' situations (.384 BA, .996 OPS, 1 HR, 13 RBI) but he is not too far ahead of Morneau in that area (.301/.843, 4 HR, 14 RBI).  When you look at other 'big hit' situations, Morneau blows the little guy out of the water.  RISP w/ 2 outs - Pedroia (.234/.723, 1 HR, 24 RBI) vs. Morneau (.366/1.153, 2 HR, 36 RBI) and just RISP - Pedroia (.306/.831) vs. Morneau (.373/1.123).

Not trying to make a blanket claim for Sox fans here... but there's a lot of truth to the fact that some Red Sox fans (or Yankees or Mets etc) aren't extremely concerned with what other teams are doing, especially little $50 mil salary cap teams in Minnesota.  Don't make the mistake of sounding ignorant when comparing one of your favorites with the little teams out there.

BT, I hear you about Boston fans having blinders for their heroes.  You'll be proud to know I did not partake in the "MVP" Chants at the game i went to last week (and even prouder to know that I sat out the wave).  The MVP chants have gotten a bit overdone, and the Wave just plain sucks.

I've certainly seen a lot more of Pedroia than I have Morneau, so I can judge the non-stat type things a lot better with him than guys from other teams.  All I can say is, you'd need to have seen what the guy has done on a daily basis to truly appreciate it.  A lot of times, his big hits are merely table setters that are breakthrough hits against a pitcher who has been giving the Sox hitters fits all night.

But, yeh, I'm taking the "tie goes to the hometown guy" approach here I suppose.  Your point is taken.

Good to know, I have no doubts that you are one of the great fans out there.  I've seen Pedroia quite a bit (I mean, the Sox aer on ESPN about 3 times a week), so I definitely know what you're talking about.  I just see the same type of things out of Morneau and Mauer as well.  I have no qualms with you taking the hometown guy though, just get a little ruffled when that is the sole criteria for a decision (which I know is not the case for you).


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