Ainge says Red Kept the Big Three too Long

[footey]

If we win 18 this year, we keep the big 3 intact and go for 19.  It is not even a discussion to trade any of them in that event.

Also, alot will depend on the end of the 09/10 season, to see how teams get reconstituted if LBJ, Wade, Stoudemire and/or Bosh go into FA.  There could be some major re-allignment, which could actually help the Celtics to eek out one more title. Say the  big 3 are still healthy and productive.  I would be more worried about the current Cleveland team, than an LBJ-led NY Knicks team, even if he had Bosh as his team-mate, just because it would be a new team with a lot of unknowns regarding chemistry. Yes, our new big-3 experiment worked in spades the first season, but that is more the exception than the rule.

[winsomme]

Of course, it's interesting to see how this philosophy is playing out with this team.  The team passed on Posey, because of how it might have impacted financial flexibility in four years.  The team signed POB and kept two rookies on the roster, despite them not making contributions to this year's team. 

The question is, does it make sense to worry about four years from now, or should you maximize your opportunity to win in the future?  I'm of the latter mindset:  since we have three elite players who are approaching the end of their primes, you need to do everything in your power to win now.  You don't worry about down the road, and you don't worry about trading them away.

i totally agree about the win now philosophy. especially when you have three of the best players in the league all with approximately the same window of opportunity. and a relatively small one at that.....

the fact that they already have shown that they are capable of winning a Title makes it even more sensible to win every Title that you can with those three..

Danny definitely expressed the desire to have cap flexibility down the road, but i'm not sure he "passed" on Posey. he certainly waited for Posey to sign elsewhere (a contract i don't believe he thought anyone was going to offer) before he made another move on the wing. That is to say, if Pose signed with us, I don't think they would have offered TA that contract.

If DA had passed on Pose, it's more likely that he would have gone after another guy. I think he just thought he was going get him at his price.
the other point, and this is just a personal feeling, is that i don't mind watching a team rebuild. So i really don't see why they would have to be obsessed with still being a playoff team in 4 years.
personally, i'd rather a team rebuild than be hanging on to an 8th seed barely part of the playoff picture....

In response to the blue quote, many Celtics fans are fans no matter what and won't mind seeing a rebuild process after winning some titles. But not all. I am positive that the front office thinks it better to remain contenders for a long time, generating ositive revenues than it would be to take a nose dive into rebuilding that could lead to 22 years of nothing and people and money making opportunities leaving in droves.

You're probably right about the front office not wanting ever go way down like the Cs did in 07. personally, not only doesn't it bother me, i actually enjoy watching young players develop. Watching Big Al was very enjoyable to me.

and remember that even Tommy's great 70's teams and Bird's 80's teams sandwiched a couple of lousy seasons in 78 and 79....

the same also happened between Russell, Hondo, Sam J, etc and Hondo, Cowens, JoJo, etc...

[CoachBo]

I disagree here as well - a lot.

What's been wildly exaggerated is the lack of value to this team of a player who's very good - admittedly not great - at a variety of skills: shooting, defense, rebounding, court intelligence, work ethic, etc. This board as a whole just doesn't grasp the value of versatility on a bench - and apparently neither does Ainge.

I could agree to an extent with the value of adding young talent if Ainge had added any. But beyond Rondo, to insinuate there's anything else young with star potential on this roster is a wild exaggeration in and of itself.

And Rondo himself isn't going to get there until he puts in the work to develop a shot.

Bottom line: This franchise was going nowhere with Danny's day care. Then, we were able to unload them in a couple of major fire sales: Garnett and Ray. We should be maximizing the championship potential of this group.

[BigAlTheFuture]

Okay, I can see Utah doing this because Ray Allen could help them win the title this year. I can see Chicago doing this because they get Aldridge AND Outlaw in return for a player that's less talented than both of them (Deng).

But there's no way Portland would ever do this trade. They break up their young core that could potentially win multiple titles for years to come for a player that is past his prime that will continue to decline (Garnett) and Deng, who is not even that good.

I think you're underrating Roy and Aldridge a bit. I'd be surprise if Portland does KG for Roy straight up. BRoy is a top 10 player in the league right now, and he's still very young. The kid's a total package. A good team player, great leadership, great defense, and clutch. Portland would throw their championship hopes in the future out the window if they do this trade.

[Brickowski]

Maximizing the championship potential of the current group and rebuilding with younger players are not mutually exclusive.

If championships are the goal, then Ainge has to ride the roster he has until it no longer has championship potential, even with the addition of the Poseys or other MLE caliber veteran role players to bolster the core.

He must be brutally unsentimental in this assessment, or else risk the kind of decline that the Celtics experienced after 1988. He must also get lucky in the draft or in a trade to find a young 7 footer who can play.  All rebuilding will start there.  His point guard for the next 10 years is already in place.

[BballTim]

Why would Portland trade Roy and Aldridge for a couple of years of KG, especially when it leaves them with little talent to surround him with?  Deng + KG isn't going to come close to a championship.

Also, Kirilenko still has a bad contract, and has cracked under pressure in the past.  That particular part of the trade, I'd pass on.

I think Ainge's "trade the Big Three" philosophy is flawed.  It's unlikely that trading any of the Big Three would have increased the Celts chances at a championship, even if it would have delayed the rebuilding process for awhile.  The team did the right thing by keeping its core together as long as possible; they pretty much stayed in legit title contention until Larry retired, which is as good as they could have done had they traded one of them.

Of course, it's interesting to see how this philosophy is playing out with this team.  The team passed on Posey, because of how it might have impacted financial flexibility in four years.  The team signed POB and kept two rookies on the roster, despite them not making contributions to this year's team. 

The question is, does it make sense to worry about four years from now, or should you maximize your opportunity to win in the future?  I'm of the latter mindset:  since we have three elite players who are approaching the end of their primes, you need to do everything in your power to win now.  You don't worry about down the road, and you don't worry about trading them away.

Which is precisely the vexing element of Danny's general inaction and lack of success this summer.

It makes NO sense whatsoever to make the deals that were made in the summer of 2007 - especially moving Jefferson - to revert back to pinching pennies a summer later. You bought three or four years of a championship window, now maximize it. Danny thus far failed to maximize anything last summer.

And Nick, this is where we disagree. No competent 5, no shooter, no title. And no Eastern Conference title, either.

  I don't think it's written in stone that Danny's not going to trade Ray for someone younger and lengthen our window. If he does then we're better off not having Posey's salary weighing us down.

[nickagneta]

I disagree here as well - a lot.

What's been wildly exaggerated is the lack of value to this team of a player who's very good - admittedly not great - at a variety of skills: shooting, defense, rebounding, court intelligence, work ethic, etc. This board as a whole just doesn't grasp the value of versatility on a bench - and apparently neither does Ainge.

I could agree to an extent with the value of adding young talent if Ainge had added any. But beyond Rondo, to insinuate there's anything else young with star potential on this roster is a wild exaggeration in and of itself.

And Rondo himself isn't going to get there until he puts in the work to develop a shot.

I agree here. Ainge filled his bench with projects and one dimensional players this off season and no versatility.

If Doc needs outside shooting he has Eddie, but he gives you little else.
If Doc needs slashing he has Tony, but he gives you little else. And before everyone goes off about him be a defensive specialist/stopper, remember, two coaches have publicly critcized his defense saying it wasn't nearly as good as some have perceived.
If he wants height he has POB but he gives you little else, very little.

Someone said that even if he had signed Posey would that have allieviated the problems at backup center and backup PG. No it wouldn't have. But he didn't sign Posey and the holes at Backup center and backup PG still haven't been addressed and now we have a hole at back up SF as well.

Lastly, CoachBo, the reason I think the Celtics still stand as good of a chance as any to win it all has to do with pure, unadulterated luck. There is just no way that Danny could have envisioned Rondo going from where he was to near All-Star status in one off season nor could he have counted on Perk taking the leap in his development that he did given the fact that Perk couldn't do anything basketball related all summer due to shoulder surgery. He got lucky. [dang] lucky. So because of the extraordinary jump that Perk and Rondo have had, the C's can make up for the fact that Ainge bungled the off season and a player like Powe can take a step backward in his development.

[Brickowski]

More importantly, if no good deal for Ray Allen presents itself, Ainge will have the cap space for a blue chip free agent in 2010. That would not have been the case has the team kept Posey.

[nickagneta]

More importantly, if no good deal for Ray Allen presents itself, Ainge will have the cap space for a blue chip free agent in 2010. That would not have been the case has the team kept Posey.

Actually, and Roy discussed this at length in his "Salary Cap:FAQ's" thread. Apparently they will have only slightly over the MLE avaiable at best in 2010 according to Roy's calculations.

[winsomme]

Why would Portland trade Roy and Aldridge for a couple of years of KG, especially when it leaves them with little talent to surround him with?  Deng + KG isn't going to come close to a championship.

Also, Kirilenko still has a bad contract, and has cracked under pressure in the past.  That particular part of the trade, I'd pass on.

I think Ainge's "trade the Big Three" philosophy is flawed.  It's unlikely that trading any of the Big Three would have increased the Celts chances at a championship, even if it would have delayed the rebuilding process for awhile.  The team did the right thing by keeping its core together as long as possible; they pretty much stayed in legit title contention until Larry retired, which is as good as they could have done had they traded one of them.

Of course, it's interesting to see how this philosophy is playing out with this team.  The team passed on Posey, because of how it might have impacted financial flexibility in four years.  The team signed POB and kept two rookies on the roster, despite them not making contributions to this year's team. 

The question is, does it make sense to worry about four years from now, or should you maximize your opportunity to win in the future?  I'm of the latter mindset:  since we have three elite players who are approaching the end of their primes, you need to do everything in your power to win now.  You don't worry about down the road, and you don't worry about trading them away.

Which is precisely the vexing element of Danny's general inaction and lack of success this summer.

It makes NO sense whatsoever to make the deals that were made in the summer of 2007 - especially moving Jefferson - to revert back to pinching pennies a summer later. You bought three or four years of a championship window, now maximize it. Danny thus far failed to maximize anything last summer.

And Nick, this is where we disagree. No competent 5, no shooter, no title. And no Eastern Conference title, either.

  I don't think it's written in stone that Danny's not going to trade Ray for someone younger and lengthen our window. If he does then we're better off not having Posey's salary weighing us down.

but that's not the window Danny was working for....he offered Pose a three year deal at the full MLE (or close to it)...

plus, how is it better to not have Pose's salary on the books in 09-10? Why wouldn't you actaully still want Pose on your team next year regardless of what you did with Ray? Is Pose gonna totally lose his game next year?

[BudweiserCeltic]

I disagree here as well - a lot.

What's been wildly exaggerated is the lack of value to this team of a player who's very good - admittedly not great - at a variety of skills: shooting, defense, rebounding, court intelligence, work ethic, etc. This board as a whole just doesn't grasp the value of versatility on a bench - and apparently neither does Ainge.

I could agree to an extent with the value of adding young talent if Ainge had added any. But beyond Rondo, to insinuate there's anything else young with star potential on this roster is a wild exaggeration in and of itself.

And Rondo himself isn't going to get there until he puts in the work to develop a shot.

I agree here. Ainge filled his bench with projects and one dimensional players this off season and no versatility.

If Doc needs outside shooting he has Eddie, but he gives you little else.
If Doc needs slashing he has Tony, but he gives you little else. And before everyone goes off about him be a defensive specialist/stopper, remember, two coaches have publicly critcized his defense saying it wasn't nearly as good as some have perceived.
If he wants height he has POB but he gives you little else, very little.

Someone said that even if he had signed Posey would that have allieviated the problems at backup center and backup PG. No it wouldn't have. But he didn't sign Posey and the holes at Backup center and backup PG haven't still haven't been addressed and now we have a hole at back up SF.

Lastly, CoachBo, the reason I think the Celtics still stand as good of a chance as any to win it all has to do with pure, unadulterated luck. There is just no way that Danny could have envisioned Rondo going from where he was to near All-Star status in one off season nor could he have counted on Perk taking the leap in his development that he did given the fact that Perk couldn't do anything basketball related all summer due to shoulder surgery. He got lucky. [dang] lucky. So because of the extraordinary jump that Perk and Rondo have had, the C's can make up for the fact that Ainge bungled the off season and a player like Powe can take a step backward in his development.

The problem in our lineup has rarely come from the SF spot. It seems that way as of late because Tony (capable of playing 3 positions, how's that for versatility?) has been injured, but throughout the year not having a legit SF has not really hurt us at all.

I'm quite aware that the PG and C needs haven't been addressed YET. The difference, again, we still have financials to fill them. If Danny fails to improve this team, then sure have at him, but we're at the halfway point of the season and Ainge is not out of options. And we still haven't seen what Cassell can bring to this team (even if I think his signing was a mistake it might end up being a brilliant move).

The 2nd unit looks as weak as it does because of the style in which Doc coaches, with little mixing and matching of starters and bench players. This will not be the case in the playoffs. Our bench last year wasn't particularly good either even with Posey in there. I also find it interesting when people talk about spreading the floor with him in the 4 spot, when by enlarge people around here hated Doc using Posey as the 4 (and our lack of height in the bench would mean that Posey at the 4 would be even worse this year up to this point).

[winsomme]

More importantly, if no good deal for Ray Allen presents itself, Ainge will have the cap space for a blue chip free agent in 2010. That would not have been the case has the team kept Posey.

Actually, and Roy discussed this at length in his "Salary Cap:FAQ's" thread. Apparently they will have only slightly over the MLE avaiable at best in 2010 according to Roy's calculations.

yeah, if they really wanted to maximize Ray's expiring salary, they would have to trade him during ext season.

to me, the best case scenario is to try and win Titles in the next two seasons with all three...

[nickagneta]

I disagree here as well - a lot.

What's been wildly exaggerated is the lack of value to this team of a player who's very good - admittedly not great - at a variety of skills: shooting, defense, rebounding, court intelligence, work ethic, etc. This board as a whole just doesn't grasp the value of versatility on a bench - and apparently neither does Ainge.

I could agree to an extent with the value of adding young talent if Ainge had added any. But beyond Rondo, to insinuate there's anything else young with star potential on this roster is a wild exaggeration in and of itself.

And Rondo himself isn't going to get there until he puts in the work to develop a shot.

I agree here. Ainge filled his bench with projects and one dimensional players this off season and no versatility.

If Doc needs outside shooting he has Eddie, but he gives you little else.
If Doc needs slashing he has Tony, but he gives you little else. And before everyone goes off about him be a defensive specialist/stopper, remember, two coaches have publicly critcized his defense saying it wasn't nearly as good as some have perceived.
If he wants height he has POB but he gives you little else, very little.

Someone said that even if he had signed Posey would that have allieviated the problems at backup center and backup PG. No it wouldn't have. But he didn't sign Posey and the holes at Backup center and backup PG haven't still haven't been addressed and now we have a hole at back up SF.

Lastly, CoachBo, the reason I think the Celtics still stand as good of a chance as any to win it all has to do with pure, unadulterated luck. There is just no way that Danny could have envisioned Rondo going from where he was to near All-Star status in one off season nor could he have counted on Perk taking the leap in his development that he did given the fact that Perk couldn't do anything basketball related all summer due to shoulder surgery. He got lucky. [dang] lucky. So because of the extraordinary jump that Perk and Rondo have had, the C's can make up for the fact that Ainge bungled the off season and a player like Powe can take a step backward in his development.

The problem in our lineup has rarely come from the SF spot. It seems that way as of late because Tony (capable of playing 3 positions, how's that for versatility?) has been injured, but throughout the year not having a legit SF has not really hurt us at all.

I'm quite aware that the PG and C needs haven't been addressed YET. The difference, again, we still have financials to fill them. If Danny fails to improve this team, then sure have at him, but we're at the halfway point of the season and Ainge is not out of options. And we still haven't seen what Cassell can bring to this team (even if I think his signing was a mistake it might end up being a brilliant move).

The 2nd unit looks as weak as it does because of the style in which Doc coaches, with little mixing and matching of starters and bench players. This will not be the case in the playoffs. Our bench last year wasn't particularly good either even with Posey in there. I also find it interesting when people talk about spreading the floor with him in the 4 spot, when by enlarge people around here hated Doc using Posey as the 4 (and our lack of height in the bench would mean that Posey at the 4 would be even worse this year up to this point).

There was definitely a hue and cry around here against "Small Ball" last year which almost always had Posey at the 4. But in reality, until PJ came aboard, did Doc have any choice? he had a terribly small sized bench with just about everyone undersized for their position except Posey at the 3.

As for Tony's versatility, he might be able to play three positions but he plays 2 of them horribly. Not sure that exampleworks for your discussion.

[BballTim]

I disagree here as well - a lot.

What's been wildly exaggerated is the lack of value to this team of a player who's very good - admittedly not great - at a variety of skills: shooting, defense, rebounding, court intelligence, work ethic, etc. This board as a whole just doesn't grasp the value of versatility on a bench - and apparently neither does Ainge.

I could agree to an extent with the value of adding young talent if Ainge had added any. But beyond Rondo, to insinuate there's anything else young with star potential on this roster is a wild exaggeration in and of itself.

And Rondo himself isn't going to get there until he puts in the work to develop a shot.

If Doc needs slashing he has Tony, but he gives you little else. And before everyone goes off about him be a defensive specialist/stopper, remember, two coaches have publicly critcized his defense saying it wasn't nearly as good as some have perceived.

  No, what Doc has said is that TA's recent defense is average when it can be much better. He's not saying Tony's incapable of great defense, he isn't saying that Tony never plays great defense, just that he's not playing as well as he should be.

Lastly, CoachBo, the reason I think the Celtics still stand as good of a chance as any to win it all has to do with pure, unadulterated luck. There is just no way that Danny could have envisioned Rondo going from where he was to near All-Star status in one off season nor could he have counted on Perk taking the leap in his development that he did given the fact that Perk couldn't do anything basketball related all summer due to shoulder surgery. He got lucky. [dang] lucky. So because of the extraordinary jump that Perk and Rondo have had, the C's can make up for the fact that Ainge bungled the off season and a player like Powe can take a step backward in his development.

  This is absolutely ridiculous. Perk's only 24 and he's playing better but not wildly better than last year. Seeing that level of improvement from a 23 year old who's improved from year to year like Perk has can hardly be viewed as a surprise. And Rondo, who's 22, showed flashes of this level of play all throughout the playoffs. I was arguing last summer that even if our bench was weakened we could easily be as good as we were last year because of the improvements by players like Rondo and Perk as well as the team having played together for a year. I follow the team fairly closely but I doubt that my knowledge of them is strikingly better than Danny's.

[nickagneta]

More importantly, if no good deal for Ray Allen presents itself, Ainge will have the cap space for a blue chip free agent in 2010. That would not have been the case has the team kept Posey.

Actually, and Roy discussed this at length in his "Salary Cap:FAQ's" thread. Apparently they will have only slightly over the MLE avaiable at best in 2010 according to Roy's calculations.

yeah, if they really wanted to maximize Ray's expiring salary, they would have to trade him during ext season.

to me, the best case scenario is to try and win Titles in the next two seasons with all three...

I've got a better best case scenario. Next season Boston can trade Ray at the deadline to a team with a player with a bad contract who is looking for salary cap releif for 2010. Ray then can demand he be bought out of his contract and then in 30 days he can resign with the Celtics.

Ta-Daaaaaaaaaaaaa

We've improved the team AND kept the Big Three intact.