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Author Topic: Jaylen Brown: All-Star ?? MIP??  (Read 9333 times)

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Re: Jaylen Brown Most Improved Player?
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2019, 10:16:20 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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I mentioned it a few weeks ago but it looks like the game is finally slowing down for him.  He looks so much more in control and he's certainly been working on his handle.  His body control has gotten much better. 


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Re: Jaylen Brown Most Improved Player?
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2019, 10:25:26 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Really wish someone would follow up with all those tweets thinking it was so funny the contract Brown got.

Re: Jaylen Brown Most Improved Player?
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2019, 10:40:36 AM »

Offline GreenCoffeeBean

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Brown or Siakam, as crazy as it sounds. Siakam has gotten even better this year.

Re: Jaylen Brown Most Improved Player?
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2019, 10:44:25 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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Did anyone else notice Brown's confidence in his mid range shot tonight? He hit 3 or 4 mid to long range twos last night and looked like he had been hitting them for years.
I did, and to be fair he HAS been hitting them for years - remember posters noting his mid post game and that MJ-esque fadeaway? Again Brad's misuse of Jaylen has really made him underrated.

Umm. Disagree. Brown's shooting was highly suspect when he came in the NBA, but now he is a good three point shooter. CBS gave him confidence and reps. Now, under CBS coaching, he has become a premier two-way player at a position of scarcity in the NBA. Does Stevens get any credit for that?

Would you rather he follows the Andrew Wiggins development arch? Because both he and Tatum might have.

CBS is far from perfect. So is Brown, but the narrative that he has somehow held his guys back is patently false. He's one of the premier talent development coaches in the NBA. He's managed to develop talent while being semi-contenders every year. That's something no other coach in the NBA has been able to consistently do.
"Umm", I also disagree with your opinion. Brown's shooting was highly suspect when he was in college, but he was a respectable 3 point shooter from day one. Stevens has never "given" him confidence and reps in the sense that he fed him minutes when he wasn't good enough to earn minutes to develop him, Brown earned every minute and rep he got under a very tight leash, and he definitely did not develop the skills he has now because of Brad (Stevens is a coach, not a trainer). You're just giving a lot of unwarranted credit to Brad while diminishing what Jaylen himself has done to improve his game.

Or would you rather Brad receive praise for every thing that's related to our players? Did Tatum grow an inch because Brad allowed him to exercise sufficiently by giving him significant playing time in his rookie season? Because he might be credited for that under your logic and reasoning.

Brown is far from perfect. So is Stevens, but the narrative that he has let a player like Brown grow by sticking him in the corner is "patently false". He's not a bad coach when it comes to developing young talent, but he has a tendency to stick promising young players into off-ball roles that don't develop their on-ball skills.

Yikes. Hot-takey. Brown deserves a ton of credit too. I'm not taking anything from him. A lot of things have to go right to develop a player. The player has to work hard. The training staff has to keep him healthy. The coaches have to put them in positions to succeed. The trainers have to identify how to sure up weaknesses and maximize strengths. All of that has happened, resulting in Brown's success this year.

Brown didn't have consistency as a ball-handler or finisher to have the ball in his hands a lot in his first few years. Forcing him into that role might have resulted (and often does with players like his skill set) in a loss of confidence. Take Hezonja, Mudiay, Jabari Parker, Ben Mclemore, Stanley Johnson, Derrick Williams, and Tyreke Evans for example. You can identify issues with each player AND each organization that they were drafted into. It takes so much work to help a player succeed. It's an art. CBS has previously helped players like Bradley, Crowder, Thomas, Olynyk, Rozier, Theis, and Turner succeed by developing them and putting them in the right places. He's currently doing that with players like Brown, Tatum, Williams, Williams, Ojeleye, and Edwards.

I think we all recognize last year was a mess, but I don't pin that on CBS only. Over the course of his short NBA career CBS has been one of the premier player development coaches in the NBA (that includes his staff and organization as well).
Yikes, 180 turnaround-turny. Brown deserves a ton of credit for his improvement this year (although I actually noted that his leap wasn't as big as what people would like to believe, he was really good last year), as well as the training staff and organisation for believing in his potential, but not Brad Stevens. I think Brown's production this season is on the low side for how good he actually is, up till recently (and arguably even now) he was stuck into the corner to space the floor, or was tasked to come out and set picks. It was a miracle that Brown squeezed 20 PPG on good efficiency out of such a role without hogging the ball whenever he got it, not Brad Stevens turning water into wine in his development of young players.

Brown didn't have the consistency or skill to be a main ballhandler in his first couple of seasons, but by the 2018 playoffs he was smooth and skilled enough to get some plays run for him as a creator. Yet his third season had him spending most of his time standing in the corner, there was no attempt to slowly feed him a possession or two handling the ball to get him reps under the flow of the offence to let him build the necessary confidence and experience that young players need to improve as an on-ball creator. All of the examples you listed got touches like a major figurehead of an offence, and I'm not suggesting that for Brown. Whatever "art" that is involved with developing young players, Stevens has only shown the art of freezing a player out with his handling of Jaylen Brown.

I never pinned last year's failure on Stevens, I believe that a certain point guard in Brooklyn deserves the lion's share of the blame. But we can be supportive of our coach while not losing sight of his strengths and weaknesses, and his handling of Jaylen Brown has been a black mark on his track record of developing young players imo.

I never said CBS was turning water into wine. CBS has not frozen anyone out. These is pretty ridiculous exaggerations and straw-man arguments.

Jaylen Brown is my favorite Celtic. I'm thrilled with his success. This growing dissatisfaction with one of the best coaches in the league is dumbfounding. I don't mind critiquing things he actually does (even if I normally support his decisions after I think about), but this thing where we put too much blame on him for how our young players are playing inconsistently--that's pretty ridiculous.

Re: Jaylen Brown Most Improved Player?
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2019, 10:49:27 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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And a few games ago he was completely frozen out of the offence by the coaching staff, he was setting picks and standing in the corner for the entire game. My point was that Stevens deserves little to no credit for Brown's development as he has never given Brown "the reps and opportunity" to develop until Brown made it clear to him that he was more than ready for game time. Brown being able to make lemonade out of lemons doesn't mean that his coach helped him with that, if anything he was the one who put Brown in such a poor situation to begin with.

I'm actually kind of with you on that, but I watched that game too. I would like them to force-feed Brown a bit more, but Brown wasn't doing much to be aggressive that game either. It felt like he was coasting (it felt like the entire team was coasting) after Thanksgiving. His defense that game wasn't great either, and we could have used high level defense against Brooklyn when they were scoring all over us.

The coaching staff could do more to get Brown engaged in the game, but Brown needs to be aggressive in the roles he can control--defense and offensive rebounds. I thought he also passed up some open threes that game. He was trying a bit too hard to let the game come to him.
It's difficult to be 100% engaged when you have legends like Carsen Edwards, Semi Ojeleye and Robert Williams getting to handle the ball while you're standing in the corner, especially when you're a young forward eager to prove that you're worth your new big extension. I think the coaching staff needs to take responsibility in feeding Jaylen the necessary touches to get him going in his development, especially when a main ballhandler in Hayward is out.

I'd like to see the same thing, but I like the pace of his development and his usage for the most part. He's putting up the easiest 20 points a game in the NBA right now.

Ojeleye doesn't get to handle the ball unless he tries to go one-on-one (which he does too much). Williams only handles the ball in dhos, which is part of the offense--he'd be doing that with Brown too. Edwards largely plays off-ball in the same position as Brown, even though Edwards gets up a lot of shots in that role (too many probably, but I want him to find his rhythm).

It seems like you a building straw men and then tearing them down.

I actually would like to see the coaching staff force-feed Brown more, but you don't have to put all the blame on Stevens, malign the coaching staff, or build straw men about how our back-up center shouldn't be doing dhos in order to make that point.

Re: Jaylen Brown Most Improved Player?
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2019, 11:22:18 AM »

Offline Somebody

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And a few games ago he was completely frozen out of the offence by the coaching staff, he was setting picks and standing in the corner for the entire game. My point was that Stevens deserves little to no credit for Brown's development as he has never given Brown "the reps and opportunity" to develop until Brown made it clear to him that he was more than ready for game time. Brown being able to make lemonade out of lemons doesn't mean that his coach helped him with that, if anything he was the one who put Brown in such a poor situation to begin with.

I'm actually kind of with you on that, but I watched that game too. I would like them to force-feed Brown a bit more, but Brown wasn't doing much to be aggressive that game either. It felt like he was coasting (it felt like the entire team was coasting) after Thanksgiving. His defense that game wasn't great either, and we could have used high level defense against Brooklyn when they were scoring all over us.

The coaching staff could do more to get Brown engaged in the game, but Brown needs to be aggressive in the roles he can control--defense and offensive rebounds. I thought he also passed up some open threes that game. He was trying a bit too hard to let the game come to him.
It's difficult to be 100% engaged when you have legends like Carsen Edwards, Semi Ojeleye and Robert Williams getting to handle the ball while you're standing in the corner, especially when you're a young forward eager to prove that you're worth your new big extension. I think the coaching staff needs to take responsibility in feeding Jaylen the necessary touches to get him going in his development, especially when a main ballhandler in Hayward is out.

I'd like to see the same thing, but I like the pace of his development and his usage for the most part. He's putting up the easiest 20 points a game in the NBA right now.

Ojeleye doesn't get to handle the ball unless he tries to go one-on-one (which he does too much). Williams only handles the ball in dhos, which is part of the offense--he'd be doing that with Brown too. Edwards largely plays off-ball in the same position as Brown, even though Edwards gets up a lot of shots in that role (too many probably, but I want him to find his rhythm).

It seems like you a building straw men and then tearing them down.

I actually would like to see the coaching staff force-feed Brown more, but you don't have to put all the blame on Stevens, malign the coaching staff, or build straw men about how our back-up center shouldn't be doing dhos in order to make that point.
I wasn't building straw men at all. That game had those players handling the ball while Jaylen was standing in the corner in some possessions. Edwards was coming off screens to get the ball in plays that were designated for him, Timelord was getting the ball in the high post to facilitate (not even necessarily DHOs, he was there as a passing hub) and Ojeleye (as you said) was isolating with the ball in his hands - while Brown was being utilised as a floor spacer and screen setter. That's on the coaching staff, Brown's not going to steal the ball from his teammates because you want him to be more aggressive. This really isn't building straw men, this has actually happened for a full game in the Celtic offence where Brown was playing an off-ball role even when the players handling the ball were arguably worse than him.

I'm not putting all the blame on Stevens and the coaching staff (if at all), I'm just giving credit to Brown for making the most out of a situation that's not all that ideal for him, as well as saying that the coaching staff was not mainly responsible for his improvement.
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Re: Jaylen Brown Most Improved Player?
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2019, 11:24:51 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Did anyone else notice Brown's confidence in his mid range shot tonight? He hit 3 or 4 mid to long range twos last night and looked like he had been hitting them for years.
I did, and to be fair he HAS been hitting them for years - remember posters noting his mid post game and that MJ-esque fadeaway? Again Brad's misuse of Jaylen has really made him underrated.

Umm. Disagree. Brown's shooting was highly suspect when he came in the NBA, but now he is a good three point shooter. CBS gave him confidence and reps. Now, under CBS coaching, he has become a premier two-way player at a position of scarcity in the NBA. Does Stevens get any credit for that?

Would you rather he follows the Andrew Wiggins development arch? Because both he and Tatum might have.

CBS is far from perfect. So is Brown, but the narrative that he has somehow held his guys back is patently false. He's one of the premier talent development coaches in the NBA. He's managed to develop talent while being semi-contenders every year. That's something no other coach in the NBA has been able to consistently do.
"Umm", I also disagree with your opinion. Brown's shooting was highly suspect when he was in college, but he was a respectable 3 point shooter from day one. Stevens has never "given" him confidence and reps in the sense that he fed him minutes when he wasn't good enough to earn minutes to develop him, Brown earned every minute and rep he got under a very tight leash, and he definitely did not develop the skills he has now because of Brad (Stevens is a coach, not a trainer). You're just giving a lot of unwarranted credit to Brad while diminishing what Jaylen himself has done to improve his game.

Or would you rather Brad receive praise for every thing that's related to our players? Did Tatum grow an inch because Brad allowed him to exercise sufficiently by giving him significant playing time in his rookie season? Because he might be credited for that under your logic and reasoning.

Brown is far from perfect. So is Stevens, but the narrative that he has let a player like Brown grow by sticking him in the corner is "patently false". He's not a bad coach when it comes to developing young talent, but he has a tendency to stick promising young players into off-ball roles that don't develop their on-ball skills.

Yikes. Hot-takey. Brown deserves a ton of credit too. I'm not taking anything from him. A lot of things have to go right to develop a player. The player has to work hard. The training staff has to keep him healthy. The coaches have to put them in positions to succeed. The trainers have to identify how to sure up weaknesses and maximize strengths. All of that has happened, resulting in Brown's success this year.

Brown didn't have consistency as a ball-handler or finisher to have the ball in his hands a lot in his first few years. Forcing him into that role might have resulted (and often does with players like his skill set) in a loss of confidence. Take Hezonja, Mudiay, Jabari Parker, Ben Mclemore, Stanley Johnson, Derrick Williams, and Tyreke Evans for example. You can identify issues with each player AND each organization that they were drafted into. It takes so much work to help a player succeed. It's an art. CBS has previously helped players like Bradley, Crowder, Thomas, Olynyk, Rozier, Theis, and Turner succeed by developing them and putting them in the right places. He's currently doing that with players like Brown, Tatum, Williams, Williams, Ojeleye, and Edwards.

I think we all recognize last year was a mess, but I don't pin that on CBS only. Over the course of his short NBA career CBS has been one of the premier player development coaches in the NBA (that includes his staff and organization as well).
Yikes, 180 turnaround-turny. Brown deserves a ton of credit for his improvement this year (although I actually noted that his leap wasn't as big as what people would like to believe, he was really good last year), as well as the training staff and organisation for believing in his potential, but not Brad Stevens. I think Brown's production this season is on the low side for how good he actually is, up till recently (and arguably even now) he was stuck into the corner to space the floor, or was tasked to come out and set picks. It was a miracle that Brown squeezed 20 PPG on good efficiency out of such a role without hogging the ball whenever he got it, not Brad Stevens turning water into wine in his development of young players.

Brown didn't have the consistency or skill to be a main ballhandler in his first couple of seasons, but by the 2018 playoffs he was smooth and skilled enough to get some plays run for him as a creator. Yet his third season had him spending most of his time standing in the corner, there was no attempt to slowly feed him a possession or two handling the ball to get him reps under the flow of the offence to let him build the necessary confidence and experience that young players need to improve as an on-ball creator. All of the examples you listed got touches like a major figurehead of an offence, and I'm not suggesting that for Brown. Whatever "art" that is involved with developing young players, Stevens has only shown the art of freezing a player out with his handling of Jaylen Brown.

I never pinned last year's failure on Stevens, I believe that a certain point guard in Brooklyn deserves the lion's share of the blame. But we can be supportive of our coach while not losing sight of his strengths and weaknesses, and his handling of Jaylen Brown has been a black mark on his track record of developing young players imo.

I never said CBS was turning water into wine. CBS has not frozen anyone out. These is pretty ridiculous exaggerations and straw-man arguments.

Jaylen Brown is my favorite Celtic. I'm thrilled with his success. This growing dissatisfaction with one of the best coaches in the league is dumbfounding. I don't mind critiquing things he actually does (even if I normally support his decisions after I think about), but this thing where we put too much blame on him for how our young players are playing inconsistently--that's pretty ridiculous.
Then critiquing him misusing Jaylen Brown should be fine with you, I never blamed him for Jaylen's inconsistencies, I critiqued him not feeding Jaylen the on-ball opportunities a young wing of his calibre would get on any other team.
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Re: Jaylen Brown Most Improved Player?
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2019, 11:48:49 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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And a few games ago he was completely frozen out of the offence by the coaching staff, he was setting picks and standing in the corner for the entire game. My point was that Stevens deserves little to no credit for Brown's development as he has never given Brown "the reps and opportunity" to develop until Brown made it clear to him that he was more than ready for game time. Brown being able to make lemonade out of lemons doesn't mean that his coach helped him with that, if anything he was the one who put Brown in such a poor situation to begin with.

I'm actually kind of with you on that, but I watched that game too. I would like them to force-feed Brown a bit more, but Brown wasn't doing much to be aggressive that game either. It felt like he was coasting (it felt like the entire team was coasting) after Thanksgiving. His defense that game wasn't great either, and we could have used high level defense against Brooklyn when they were scoring all over us.

The coaching staff could do more to get Brown engaged in the game, but Brown needs to be aggressive in the roles he can control--defense and offensive rebounds. I thought he also passed up some open threes that game. He was trying a bit too hard to let the game come to him.
It's difficult to be 100% engaged when you have legends like Carsen Edwards, Semi Ojeleye and Robert Williams getting to handle the ball while you're standing in the corner, especially when you're a young forward eager to prove that you're worth your new big extension. I think the coaching staff needs to take responsibility in feeding Jaylen the necessary touches to get him going in his development, especially when a main ballhandler in Hayward is out.

I'd like to see the same thing, but I like the pace of his development and his usage for the most part. He's putting up the easiest 20 points a game in the NBA right now.

Ojeleye doesn't get to handle the ball unless he tries to go one-on-one (which he does too much). Williams only handles the ball in dhos, which is part of the offense--he'd be doing that with Brown too. Edwards largely plays off-ball in the same position as Brown, even though Edwards gets up a lot of shots in that role (too many probably, but I want him to find his rhythm).

It seems like you a building straw men and then tearing them down.

I actually would like to see the coaching staff force-feed Brown more, but you don't have to put all the blame on Stevens, malign the coaching staff, or build straw men about how our back-up center shouldn't be doing dhos in order to make that point.
I wasn't building straw men at all. That game had those players handling the ball while Jaylen was standing in the corner in some possessions. Edwards was coming off screens to get the ball in plays that were designated for him, Timelord was getting the ball in the high post to facilitate (not even necessarily DHOs, he was there as a passing hub) and Ojeleye (as you said) was isolating with the ball in his hands - while Brown was being utilised as a floor spacer and screen setter. That's on the coaching staff, Brown's not going to steal the ball from his teammates because you want him to be more aggressive. This really isn't building straw men, this has actually happened for a full game in the Celtic offence where Brown was playing an off-ball role even when the players handling the ball were arguably worse than him.

I'm not putting all the blame on Stevens and the coaching staff (if at all), I'm just giving credit to Brown for making the most out of a situation that's not all that ideal for him, as well as saying that the coaching staff was not mainly responsible for his improvement.
I saw the same thing in that game Somebody. See, here is the thing: the last two years under Stevens he has run this three man weave at the top of the key with two decoys in the corner sitting there waiting for the kickout off a drive or the swing of the ball around the court after a drive or long rebound. In those years he had Brown and Tatum as those corner guys a whole lot. Even Hayward last year was that corner guy.

Now when the players doing the weave and/or PnR are Kyrie, Horford, Smart, Morris, Baynes, okay, use the kids in the corner. But both Tatum and Brown have grown and Kyrie, Horford, Baynes, Morris and Rozier are gone. So stop using Brown in the corner. In that Brooklyn game Stevens definitely had people like both Williams', Edwards, Semi, Kanter playing in the 3 man game while Brown sat in the corner. Brown's touches and time of possession were down 30% from his average and down over 40% from previous games where he shined. Brown is probably one of the most consistent and efficient scorers on the team this year but Brad was setting up offense for much lesser players.

Brown can't, as Somebody said, go steal the ball from his team mates or go rogue and not play within the offensive system. It's up to Stevens to put Brown in the best position to succeed and in that game, Stevens didn't.

I don't to think it a coincidence that Stevens went away from Brown standing in the corner as much the last two games. And the man has shined.

Funny enough in the post game last night Stevens mentioned that players complain when they have to be in those corner positions but when the offense is run right those positions are very important. Here's the thing, if you are using Wanamaker, Edwards and one of the Williams' in the three man play up top while Tatum and Brown sit in the corner, you offense probably isn't going to run right. Stick Edwards in the corner and have Brown or Tatum up top. Then maybe the offense will run right.

Re: Jaylen Brown Most Improved Player?
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2019, 12:19:29 PM »

Offline Somebody

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And a few games ago he was completely frozen out of the offence by the coaching staff, he was setting picks and standing in the corner for the entire game. My point was that Stevens deserves little to no credit for Brown's development as he has never given Brown "the reps and opportunity" to develop until Brown made it clear to him that he was more than ready for game time. Brown being able to make lemonade out of lemons doesn't mean that his coach helped him with that, if anything he was the one who put Brown in such a poor situation to begin with.

I'm actually kind of with you on that, but I watched that game too. I would like them to force-feed Brown a bit more, but Brown wasn't doing much to be aggressive that game either. It felt like he was coasting (it felt like the entire team was coasting) after Thanksgiving. His defense that game wasn't great either, and we could have used high level defense against Brooklyn when they were scoring all over us.

The coaching staff could do more to get Brown engaged in the game, but Brown needs to be aggressive in the roles he can control--defense and offensive rebounds. I thought he also passed up some open threes that game. He was trying a bit too hard to let the game come to him.
It's difficult to be 100% engaged when you have legends like Carsen Edwards, Semi Ojeleye and Robert Williams getting to handle the ball while you're standing in the corner, especially when you're a young forward eager to prove that you're worth your new big extension. I think the coaching staff needs to take responsibility in feeding Jaylen the necessary touches to get him going in his development, especially when a main ballhandler in Hayward is out.

I'd like to see the same thing, but I like the pace of his development and his usage for the most part. He's putting up the easiest 20 points a game in the NBA right now.

Ojeleye doesn't get to handle the ball unless he tries to go one-on-one (which he does too much). Williams only handles the ball in dhos, which is part of the offense--he'd be doing that with Brown too. Edwards largely plays off-ball in the same position as Brown, even though Edwards gets up a lot of shots in that role (too many probably, but I want him to find his rhythm).

It seems like you a building straw men and then tearing them down.

I actually would like to see the coaching staff force-feed Brown more, but you don't have to put all the blame on Stevens, malign the coaching staff, or build straw men about how our back-up center shouldn't be doing dhos in order to make that point.
I wasn't building straw men at all. That game had those players handling the ball while Jaylen was standing in the corner in some possessions. Edwards was coming off screens to get the ball in plays that were designated for him, Timelord was getting the ball in the high post to facilitate (not even necessarily DHOs, he was there as a passing hub) and Ojeleye (as you said) was isolating with the ball in his hands - while Brown was being utilised as a floor spacer and screen setter. That's on the coaching staff, Brown's not going to steal the ball from his teammates because you want him to be more aggressive. This really isn't building straw men, this has actually happened for a full game in the Celtic offence where Brown was playing an off-ball role even when the players handling the ball were arguably worse than him.

I'm not putting all the blame on Stevens and the coaching staff (if at all), I'm just giving credit to Brown for making the most out of a situation that's not all that ideal for him, as well as saying that the coaching staff was not mainly responsible for his improvement.
I saw the same thing in that game Somebody. See, here is the thing: the last two years under Stevens he has run this three man weave at the top of the key with two decoys in the corner sitting there waiting for the kickout off a drive or the swing of the ball around the court after a drive or long rebound. In those years he had Brown and Tatum as those corner guys a whole lot. Even Hayward last year was that corner guy.

Now when the players doing the weave and/or PnR are Kyrie, Horford, Smart, Morris, Baynes, okay, use the kids in the corner. But both Tatum and Brown have grown and Kyrie, Horford, Baynes, Morris and Rozier are gone. So stop using Brown in the corner. In that Brooklyn game Stevens definitely had people like both Williams', Edwards, Semi, Kanter playing in the 3 man game while Brown sat in the corner. Brown's touches and time of possession were down 30% from his average and down over 40% from previous games where he shined. Brown is probably one of the most consistent and efficient scorers on the team this year but Brad was setting up offense for much lesser players.

Brown can't, as Somebody said, go steal the ball from his team mates or go rogue and not play within the offensive system. It's up to Stevens to put Brown in the best position to succeed and in that game, Stevens didn't.

I don't to think it a coincidence that Stevens went away from Brown standing in the corner as much the last two games. And the man has shined.

Funny enough in the post game last night Stevens mentioned that players complain when they have to be in those corner positions but when the offense is run right those positions are very important. Here's the thing, if you are using Wanamaker, Edwards and one of the Williams' in the three man play up top while Tatum and Brown sit in the corner, you offense probably isn't going to run right. Stick Edwards in the corner and have Brown or Tatum up top. Then maybe the offense will run right.
TP.
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Re: Jaylen Brown Most Improved Player?
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2019, 12:30:55 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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And a few games ago he was completely frozen out of the offence by the coaching staff, he was setting picks and standing in the corner for the entire game. My point was that Stevens deserves little to no credit for Brown's development as he has never given Brown "the reps and opportunity" to develop until Brown made it clear to him that he was more than ready for game time. Brown being able to make lemonade out of lemons doesn't mean that his coach helped him with that, if anything he was the one who put Brown in such a poor situation to begin with.

I'm actually kind of with you on that, but I watched that game too. I would like them to force-feed Brown a bit more, but Brown wasn't doing much to be aggressive that game either. It felt like he was coasting (it felt like the entire team was coasting) after Thanksgiving. His defense that game wasn't great either, and we could have used high level defense against Brooklyn when they were scoring all over us.

The coaching staff could do more to get Brown engaged in the game, but Brown needs to be aggressive in the roles he can control--defense and offensive rebounds. I thought he also passed up some open threes that game. He was trying a bit too hard to let the game come to him.
It's difficult to be 100% engaged when you have legends like Carsen Edwards, Semi Ojeleye and Robert Williams getting to handle the ball while you're standing in the corner, especially when you're a young forward eager to prove that you're worth your new big extension. I think the coaching staff needs to take responsibility in feeding Jaylen the necessary touches to get him going in his development, especially when a main ballhandler in Hayward is out.

I'd like to see the same thing, but I like the pace of his development and his usage for the most part. He's putting up the easiest 20 points a game in the NBA right now.

Ojeleye doesn't get to handle the ball unless he tries to go one-on-one (which he does too much). Williams only handles the ball in dhos, which is part of the offense--he'd be doing that with Brown too. Edwards largely plays off-ball in the same position as Brown, even though Edwards gets up a lot of shots in that role (too many probably, but I want him to find his rhythm).

It seems like you a building straw men and then tearing them down.

I actually would like to see the coaching staff force-feed Brown more, but you don't have to put all the blame on Stevens, malign the coaching staff, or build straw men about how our back-up center shouldn't be doing dhos in order to make that point.
I wasn't building straw men at all. That game had those players handling the ball while Jaylen was standing in the corner in some possessions. Edwards was coming off screens to get the ball in plays that were designated for him, Timelord was getting the ball in the high post to facilitate (not even necessarily DHOs, he was there as a passing hub) and Ojeleye (as you said) was isolating with the ball in his hands - while Brown was being utilised as a floor spacer and screen setter. That's on the coaching staff, Brown's not going to steal the ball from his teammates because you want him to be more aggressive. This really isn't building straw men, this has actually happened for a full game in the Celtic offence where Brown was playing an off-ball role even when the players handling the ball were arguably worse than him.

I'm not putting all the blame on Stevens and the coaching staff (if at all), I'm just giving credit to Brown for making the most out of a situation that's not all that ideal for him, as well as saying that the coaching staff was not mainly responsible for his improvement.
I saw the same thing in that game Somebody. See, here is the thing: the last two years under Stevens he has run this three man weave at the top of the key with two decoys in the corner sitting there waiting for the kickout off a drive or the swing of the ball around the court after a drive or long rebound. In those years he had Brown and Tatum as those corner guys a whole lot. Even Hayward last year was that corner guy.

Now when the players doing the weave and/or PnR are Kyrie, Horford, Smart, Morris, Baynes, okay, use the kids in the corner. But both Tatum and Brown have grown and Kyrie, Horford, Baynes, Morris and Rozier are gone. So stop using Brown in the corner. In that Brooklyn game Stevens definitely had people like both Williams', Edwards, Semi, Kanter playing in the 3 man game while Brown sat in the corner. Brown's touches and time of possession were down 30% from his average and down over 40% from previous games where he shined. Brown is probably one of the most consistent and efficient scorers on the team this year but Brad was setting up offense for much lesser players.

Brown can't, as Somebody said, go steal the ball from his team mates or go rogue and not play within the offensive system. It's up to Stevens to put Brown in the best position to succeed and in that game, Stevens didn't.

I don't to think it a coincidence that Stevens went away from Brown standing in the corner as much the last two games. And the man has shined.

Funny enough in the post game last night Stevens mentioned that players complain when they have to be in those corner positions but when the offense is run right those positions are very important. Here's the thing, if you are using Wanamaker, Edwards and one of the Williams' in the three man play up top while Tatum and Brown sit in the corner, you offense probably isn't going to run right. Stick Edwards in the corner and have Brown or Tatum up top. Then maybe the offense will run right.
TP - solid observation Nick

Re: Jaylen Brown Most Improved Player?
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2019, 12:40:25 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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Doncic, Siakim, Graham, VanFleet, Ingram, Brown are all solid choices to me.

Re: Jaylen Brown Most Improved Player?
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2019, 01:37:11 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Hopefully Brown's improvement will shut down the idiotic Jeff Green 2.0 comparisons and comments.

Re: Jaylen Brown Most Improved Player?
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2019, 07:50:58 PM »

Offline Fierce1

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Hopefully Brown's improvement will shut down the idiotic Jeff Green 2.0 comparisons and comments.

Jaylen is more Andre Iguodala 2.0.

Re: Jaylen Brown Most Improved Player?
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2019, 07:54:43 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Hopefully Brown's improvement will shut down the idiotic Jeff Green 2.0 comparisons and comments.

Jaylen is more Andre Iguodala 2.0.
I don't get this at all. Iggy was a play-making guard who played nearly 40MPG, whose peak was what JB is currently averaging, and he also could not shoot a 3 to save himself in his prime. Brown is much more efficient than peak Iggy, and much more prolific than late-career Iggy, but will in all likelihood never be the passer Iggy was
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Re: Jaylen Brown Most Improved Player?
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2019, 07:58:21 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Hopefully Brown's improvement will shut down the idiotic Jeff Green 2.0 comparisons and comments.

Jaylen is more Andre Iguodala 2.0.
I don't get this at all. Iggy was a play-making guard who played nearly 40MPG, whose peak was what JB is currently averaging, and he also could not shoot a 3 to save himself in his prime. Brown is much more efficient than peak Iggy, and much more prolific than late-career Iggy, but will in all likelihood never be the passer Iggy was
Not seeing they Iggy comparison at all. Jimmy Butler? I could get behind that comp.