Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[green_bballers13]

I wasn't aware that he still chokes women. I thought he did that once. I guess I'm the idiot for not knowing this.

Joe is a rookie NBA head coach. I see no reason to try to compare him to guys that have been coaching for much longer.

Why should a championship contender settle for a poor coach just because he's a rookie?  Also, roomie coach Ime wasn't nearly this bad.

And, violent abusers don't get much forgiveness from me.  It's a sign he's a coward.

No arguments from me on abusing women. I guess its a semantics thing- I thought you were saying that he actively chokes women.

Eh, Udoka was heavily criticized when the results weren't good. I'm not sure what you want Brad to do at this point. Fire him during the Philly series?

I'm ok if they want to bring in a more experienced coach next year. Until then, I'm going to root for Joe during this playoff run.

[green_bballers13]

What are the obstacles to hiring Nick Nurse? Contracts were made to be broken- look at the NFL.

Wyc needs to pay Nurse, and needs to pay Joe to get out of a contract? Is this it? If so, this should happen the day after the season ends (even if we win it).

[angryguy77]

You can't even make this stuff up.

The layups were nice, but they did get the Celtics away from what they do best. They took 26 3-pointers, their second-lowest total over the last two years. “I don’t think 26 3s is a recipe for our success as a team," Mazzulla said.

We lost last night because...  we didn't shoot enough threes! 

Not the 16 turnovers, not the atrocious defense.  In spite of the 58.7% shooting and easy layups, it's the lack of threes that cost us the game.

I swear, if I was Wyc I'd fire him today.

This quote does seem strange.  It is true that PHI had 38 3PA to our 26.   PHI made 45%, we made 38.5%.  That is 51 points to 30 points from 3.  That is a big difference.  Joe didn't say this very well but it is a point of strategy.  We need to defend so that they get fewer 3s and attack so we get more 3s, at least more than the ratio in this game.  I am OK with that.

More concerning to me though is the 89 overall shot attempts by PHI to 75 by BOS.   Those 14 extra shots for PHI, many of them turning out to be 3s, is where the meat is.  Most of these extra shots are due to turnovers (16 to 6).  FTs/fouls (18 FTA to 12) was a factor also, we had more possessions that resulted in FTs, reducing our FGAs, which is OK, the good side of attacking.  To me, this is where the main coaching focus should be, take care of the ball!  Attacking to draw fouls is good too, but many of our "attacks" resulted in sloppy turnovers.  Executing the offense to get a few more 3s is a secondary (to reducing TOs) focus, at best.  But I would rather jack a 3 than dribble into a crowd that results in a TO.  I think that is Mazzulla's point.  Hopefully he can communicate this better to the players than he sounded in the quote to the reporter.

Yeah, I think he's just wrong, for the reasons you articulated.  If we took the exact same shots, we would have won going away if we had either played some semblance of defense, or lowered our turnovers.  The shot selection wasn't the issue, as our offense was extremely efficient.

I worry that Joe is preaching to the team that they somehow did something wrong by attacking the basket and getting a bunch of layups. Only an idiot coach would be disappointed with his team getting so many inside shots and baskets, and yet here we are.

yup and that really worries me.

So, for the people calling Joe an “idiot coach”.

The team finished the year under this “idiot coach” with the second best record in the league, a top-5 offense and defense. He helped keep their heads on straight in what could have been a disaster pi’s off-season. You’ll say he’s a basketball idiot, but he could run rings around you in his knowledge of the game. Walking on his hands.

And since we are going to talk about race, I’ve seen too many posts calling him into question as an affirmative action coach. Apparently,  he’s got to work twice as hard to prove himself because of his race.  If there is affirmative action in the NBA coaching ranks, then for a very long time it has been heavily in favor of white coaches.

You think Budenholzer is a better coach than Pop or Spo? He guided his team to a better record, and it wasn't close. If record is such a measure, then I'd like to know how he isn't a better coach.

He inherited a finals team that improved its roster over the summer. You don't have to be an amazing coach to rack up wins with the amount of talent this team has.

Yeah, he helped keep their heads on straight as long as the team wasn't playing against a weakened opponent. TBF, those games are not all his fault, but it keeps happening and he's yet to hold them accountable. That doesn't make him stupid however, just ineffective in this area. If he's going to remain coach, he has to figure out a way to get these guys to not take nights off during the playoffs.

He's called an idiot because he's the same guy that inexplicably allows his team to sink while hoarding TO's while also believing shooting more 3's is more important than good defense and taking care of the ball. IDK how to think differently because that's his main focus.

I'll never understand those who think that certain professionals are beyond reproach. If you take your car into be fixed and it never runs right, are you going to say "Well can't question the work because the mechanic know more about cars?" Think for yourself and stop worshiping authority.

I don’t worship authority. I am morally certain that if the people who call him an idiot went into a room with him, and we asked everyone 100 questions about basketball – things like how to coach a player and how to respond to the way the other team is playing you - his answers would be infinitely better than the commenters.

I don’t have any problem with specific criticisms of specific decisions. Have at it. But if we want to talk about the way to approach life, how about not calling other people idiots who plainly aren’t?

The way you characterize his position is a gross distortion. As he said yesterday, he doesn't want the team to chuck up every bad three they see. He wants to see good threes taken after a good process. And if you look at the turnovers, the team had Dash which probably cost than the game – they came because they were forcing the ball in after the Sixers had jammed the paint. That was the time to play a drive and kick game and, yes, take more threes unless the Sixers re-opened the paint.

As Roy pointed out, he's being called an idiot in comparison to his peers. When your defense is "well he's in a position you're not" you definitely are deferring because of what he does. That's not a valid defense of someone. It's a lazy way to tell someone their opinion is wrong. Despite his job title, he's a human and no human is perfect. Many people hold jobs they are not qualified for.

Instead of just reminding us plebs of his title, tell us why he looks smart for listing lack of 3's as a reason for the loss on Monday over defense and turnovers. I would love to hear why that was mentioned before defense.

In a raw moment after the game, that's the fist thing that comes to mind? You cannot defend someone's Bball IQ after statements like that.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

You can't even make this stuff up.

The layups were nice, but they did get the Celtics away from what they do best. They took 26 3-pointers, their second-lowest total over the last two years. “I don’t think 26 3s is a recipe for our success as a team," Mazzulla said.

We lost last night because...  we didn't shoot enough threes! 

Not the 16 turnovers, not the atrocious defense.  In spite of the 58.7% shooting and easy layups, it's the lack of threes that cost us the game.

I swear, if I was Wyc I'd fire him today.

This quote does seem strange.  It is true that PHI had 38 3PA to our 26.   PHI made 45%, we made 38.5%.  That is 51 points to 30 points from 3.  That is a big difference.  Joe didn't say this very well but it is a point of strategy.  We need to defend so that they get fewer 3s and attack so we get more 3s, at least more than the ratio in this game.  I am OK with that.

More concerning to me though is the 89 overall shot attempts by PHI to 75 by BOS.   Those 14 extra shots for PHI, many of them turning out to be 3s, is where the meat is.  Most of these extra shots are due to turnovers (16 to 6).  FTs/fouls (18 FTA to 12) was a factor also, we had more possessions that resulted in FTs, reducing our FGAs, which is OK, the good side of attacking.  To me, this is where the main coaching focus should be, take care of the ball!  Attacking to draw fouls is good too, but many of our "attacks" resulted in sloppy turnovers.  Executing the offense to get a few more 3s is a secondary (to reducing TOs) focus, at best.  But I would rather jack a 3 than dribble into a crowd that results in a TO.  I think that is Mazzulla's point.  Hopefully he can communicate this better to the players than he sounded in the quote to the reporter.

Yeah, I think he's just wrong, for the reasons you articulated.  If we took the exact same shots, we would have won going away if we had either played some semblance of defense, or lowered our turnovers.  The shot selection wasn't the issue, as our offense was extremely efficient.

I worry that Joe is preaching to the team that they somehow did something wrong by attacking the basket and getting a bunch of layups. Only an idiot coach would be disappointed with his team getting so many inside shots and baskets, and yet here we are.

yup and that really worries me.

So, for the people calling Joe an “idiot coach”.

The team finished the year under this “idiot coach” with the second best record in the league, a top-5 offense and defense. He helped keep their heads on straight in what could have been a disaster pi’s off-season. You’ll say he’s a basketball idiot, but he could run rings around you in his knowledge of the game. Walking on his hands.

And since we are going to talk about race, I’ve seen too many posts calling him into question as an affirmative action coach. Apparently,  he’s got to work twice as hard to prove himself because of his race.  If there is affirmative action in the NBA coaching ranks, then for a very long time it has been heavily in favor of white coaches.

You think Budenholzer is a better coach than Pop or Spo? He guided his team to a better record, and it wasn't close. If record is such a measure, then I'd like to know how he isn't a better coach.

He inherited a finals team that improved its roster over the summer. You don't have to be an amazing coach to rack up wins with the amount of talent this team has.

Yeah, he helped keep their heads on straight as long as the team wasn't playing against a weakened opponent. TBF, those games are not all his fault, but it keeps happening and he's yet to hold them accountable. That doesn't make him stupid however, just ineffective in this area. If he's going to remain coach, he has to figure out a way to get these guys to not take nights off during the playoffs.

He's called an idiot because he's the same guy that inexplicably allows his team to sink while hoarding TO's while also believing shooting more 3's is more important than good defense and taking care of the ball. IDK how to think differently because that's his main focus.

I'll never understand those who think that certain professionals are beyond reproach. If you take your car into be fixed and it never runs right, are you going to say "Well can't question the work because the mechanic know more about cars?" Think for yourself and stop worshiping authority.

I don’t worship authority. I am morally certain that if the people who call him an idiot went into a room with him, and we asked everyone 100 questions about basketball – things like how to coach a player and how to respond to the way the other team is playing you - his answers would be infinitely better than the commenters.

I don’t have any problem with specific criticisms of specific decisions. Have at it. But if we want to talk about the way to approach life, how about not calling other people idiots who plainly aren’t?

The way you characterize his position is a gross distortion. As he said yesterday, he doesn't want the team to chuck up every bad three they see. He wants to see good threes taken after a good process. And if you look at the turnovers, the team had Dash which probably cost than the game – they came because they were forcing the ball in after the Sixers had jammed the paint. That was the time to play a drive and kick game and, yes, take more threes unless the Sixers re-opened the paint.

As Roy pointed out, he's being called an idiot in comparison to his peers. When your defense is "well he's in a position you're not" you definitely are deferring because of what he does. That's not a valid defense of someone. It's a lazy way to tell someone their opinion is wrong. Despite his job title, he's a human and no human is perfect. Many people hold jobs they are not qualified for.

Instead of just reminding us plebs of his title, tell us why he looks smart for listing lack of 3's as a reason for the loss on Monday over defense and turnovers. I would love to hear why that was mentioned before defense.

In a raw moment after the game, that's the fist thing that comes to mind? You cannot defend someone's Bball IQ after statements like that.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Birdman]

Celtics lose, fire Joe..Celtics win, he coach of the year…gotta love sports

[Neurotic Guy]

I wasn't aware that he still chokes women. I thought he did that once. I guess I'm the idiot for not knowing this.

Joe is a rookie NBA head coach. I see no reason to try to compare him to guys that have been coaching for much longer.

Once is still absolutely beyond the acceptable limit (barring whatever private life one might live)

At the risk of getting destroyed here, an impulsive moment of violence in some cases is something I could forgive. When I was about 10 I got smacked by my mom out of anger - much to her regret.  I forgave her - in fact rather easily as she was a wonderful mother.  I have a friend who admitted to me (when we were around 20) that he slapped his girlfriend.  It was horrifying to him (a person who witnessed his own dad hit his mom frequently).  I don’t believe he ever did that again (of course I don’t know for sure).  Violence is an impossible thing to adequately defend, but we are all human - we do all have challenges from time to time with emotions - and we do all make mistakes. After mistakes, we have the rest of our time on Earth to do better.  I understand no forgiveness, I also understand forgiveness.

[Roy H.]

I wasn't aware that he still chokes women. I thought he did that once. I guess I'm the idiot for not knowing this.

Joe is a rookie NBA head coach. I see no reason to try to compare him to guys that have been coaching for much longer.

Why should a championship contender settle for a poor coach just because he's a rookie?  Also, roomie coach Ime wasn't nearly this bad.

And, violent abusers don't get much forgiveness from me.  It's a sign he's a coward.

No arguments from me on abusing women. I guess its a semantics thing- I thought you were saying that he actively chokes women.

Eh, Udoka was heavily criticized when the results weren't good. I'm not sure what you want Brad to do at this point. Fire him during the Philly series?

I'm ok if they want to bring in a more experienced coach next year. Until then, I'm going to root for Joe during this playoff run.

I'm rooting for him, in the sense that he fumbles his way too a title.

But, I'd love to see the team fire him, even if he wins a title.  I just don't think you will ever be a good coach.  I don't think the team will do that, but barring that, I'd like to see the team bring in some top notch assistants.  Give me Vogel, Silas and Larranaga.

[Roy H.]

I wasn't aware that he still chokes women. I thought he did that once. I guess I'm the idiot for not knowing this.

Joe is a rookie NBA head coach. I see no reason to try to compare him to guys that have been coaching for much longer.

Once is still absolutely beyond the acceptable limit (barring whatever private life one might live)

At the risk of getting destroyed here, an impulsive moment of violence in some cases is something I could forgive. When I was about 10 I got smacked by my mom out of anger - much to her regret.  I forgave her - in fact rather easily as she was a wonderful mother.  I have a friend who admitted to me (when we were around 20) that he slapped his girlfriend.  It was horrifying to him (a person who witnessed his own dad hit his mom frequently).  I don’t believe he ever did that again (of course I don’t know for sure).  Violence is an impossible thing to adequately defend, but we are all human - we do all have challenges from time to time with emotions - and we do all make mistakes. After mistakes, we have the rest of our time on Earth to do better.  I understand no forgiveness, I also understand forgiveness.

For whatever it's worth, Joe had two separate incidents involving felony level violence. A year before the domestic battery, he was charged with aggravated assault. 

[Goldstar88]

You can't even make this stuff up.

The layups were nice, but they did get the Celtics away from what they do best. They took 26 3-pointers, their second-lowest total over the last two years. “I don’t think 26 3s is a recipe for our success as a team," Mazzulla said.

We lost last night because...  we didn't shoot enough threes! 

Not the 16 turnovers, not the atrocious defense.  In spite of the 58.7% shooting and easy layups, it's the lack of threes that cost us the game.

I swear, if I was Wyc I'd fire him today.

This quote does seem strange.  It is true that PHI had 38 3PA to our 26.   PHI made 45%, we made 38.5%.  That is 51 points to 30 points from 3.  That is a big difference.  Joe didn't say this very well but it is a point of strategy.  We need to defend so that they get fewer 3s and attack so we get more 3s, at least more than the ratio in this game.  I am OK with that.

More concerning to me though is the 89 overall shot attempts by PHI to 75 by BOS.   Those 14 extra shots for PHI, many of them turning out to be 3s, is where the meat is.  Most of these extra shots are due to turnovers (16 to 6).  FTs/fouls (18 FTA to 12) was a factor also, we had more possessions that resulted in FTs, reducing our FGAs, which is OK, the good side of attacking.  To me, this is where the main coaching focus should be, take care of the ball!  Attacking to draw fouls is good too, but many of our "attacks" resulted in sloppy turnovers.  Executing the offense to get a few more 3s is a secondary (to reducing TOs) focus, at best.  But I would rather jack a 3 than dribble into a crowd that results in a TO.  I think that is Mazzulla's point.  Hopefully he can communicate this better to the players than he sounded in the quote to the reporter.

Yeah, I think he's just wrong, for the reasons you articulated.  If we took the exact same shots, we would have won going away if we had either played some semblance of defense, or lowered our turnovers.  The shot selection wasn't the issue, as our offense was extremely efficient.

I worry that Joe is preaching to the team that they somehow did something wrong by attacking the basket and getting a bunch of layups. Only an idiot coach would be disappointed with his team getting so many inside shots and baskets, and yet here we are.

yup and that really worries me.

So, for the people calling Joe an “idiot coach”.

The team finished the year under this “idiot coach” with the second best record in the league, a top-5 offense and defense. He helped keep their heads on straight in what could have been a disaster pi’s off-season. You’ll say he’s a basketball idiot, but he could run rings around you in his knowledge of the game. Walking on his hands.

And since we are going to talk about race, I’ve seen too many posts calling him into question as an affirmative action coach. Apparently,  he’s got to work twice as hard to prove himself because of his race.  If there is affirmative action in the NBA coaching ranks, then for a very long time it has been heavily in favor of white coaches.

Luke Walton had the Warriors start something like 24-0 and 41-3.  He's objectively a bad coach by NBA standards.  He's probably an idiot compared to other NBA coaches, as well, but I am not aware of him ever having a philosophy as dumb as "shoot more threes" after a historically efficient performance. 

And, why do people never mention last year's team, when talking about the record and the offense / defense?  Over the second half of last year, we had a historically good point differential.  They finished the season 33-10, a 63 win.  After a hot start, this team finished on a 52 win pace, despite adding Brogdon, Hauser and a better Derrick White.

Walton did that as a head coach? I’m seeing that his best season in the NBA as a HC was 37-45. I think Joe is already a better coach than Luke Walton.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

I wasn't aware that he still chokes women. I thought he did that once. I guess I'm the idiot for not knowing this.

Joe is a rookie NBA head coach. I see no reason to try to compare him to guys that have been coaching for much longer.

Once is still absolutely beyond the acceptable limit (barring whatever private life one might live)

At the risk of getting destroyed here, an impulsive moment of violence in some cases is something I could forgive. When I was about 10 I got smacked by my mom out of anger - much to her regret.  I forgave her - in fact rather easily as she was a wonderful mother.  I have a friend who admitted to me (when we were around 20) that he slapped his girlfriend.  It was horrifying to him (a person who witnessed his own dad hit his mom frequently).  I don’t believe he ever did that again (of course I don’t know for sure).  Violence is an impossible thing to adequately defend, but we are all human - we do all have challenges from time to time with emotions - and we do all make mistakes. After mistakes, we have the rest of our time on Earth to do better.  I understand no forgiveness, I also understand forgiveness.

For whatever it's worth, Joe had two separate incidents involving felony level violence. A year before the domestic battery, he was charged with aggravated assault.

wow. did not know that.

yeah we have seen many coaches in many sports have a team who won a title in spite of their coaching. then they retained said coach and they were exposed that it was the players and not the coach. but yeah for our sake let us win a title in spite of joe then we can replace him with a nick nurse type. one can dream.

[Kernewek]

I wasn't aware that he still chokes women. I thought he did that once. I guess I'm the idiot for not knowing this.

Joe is a rookie NBA head coach. I see no reason to try to compare him to guys that have been coaching for much longer.

Why should a championship contender settle for a poor coach just because he's a rookie?  Also, roomie coach Ime wasn't nearly this bad.

And, violent abusers don't get much forgiveness from me.  It's a sign he's a coward.

No arguments from me on abusing women. I guess its a semantics thing- I thought you were saying that he actively chokes women.

Eh, Udoka was heavily criticized when the results weren't good. I'm not sure what you want Brad to do at this point. Fire him during the Philly series?

I'm ok if they want to bring in a more experienced coach next year. Until then, I'm going to root for Joe during this playoff run.

I'm rooting for him, in the sense that he fumbles his way too a title.

But, I'd love to see the team fire him, even if he wins a title.  I just don't think you will ever be a good coach.  I don't think the team will do that, but barring that, I'd like to see the team bring in some top notch assistants.  Give me Vogel, Silas and Larranaga.

It would take a special kind of terrible behaviour to get fired in the off-season after you win a title.

Indifferent to Mazulla but this thread is an absolute bin fire.

[Phantom255x]

Every time we have a coach, there's people begging us to fire him

Brad Stevens, Ime, now Joe. I'm sure even before I joined here, people were calling for Doc to be fired for many years before he ultimately was 

We can fire Joe, hire Nurse and I bet you months later there'd be a "Fire Nick" thread

[Roy H.]

Every time we have a coach, there's people begging us to fire him

Brad Stevens, Ime, now Joe. I'm sure even before I joined here, people were calling for Doc to be fired for many years before he ultimately was 

We can fire Joe, hire Nurse and I bet you months later there'd be a "Fire Nick" thread

Is this a defense of Joe?  Because, even fickle fans are right sometimes.

[Phantom255x]

Every time we have a coach, there's people begging us to fire him

Brad Stevens, Ime, now Joe. I'm sure even before I joined here, people were calling for Doc to be fired for many years before he ultimately was 

We can fire Joe, hire Nurse and I bet you months later there'd be a "Fire Nick" thread

Is this a defense of Joe?  Because, even fickle fans are right sometimes.

Not at all. But like what perfect coach is out there? Even guys like Spo and Popovich aren't perfect.

Ime wasn't perfect either even though I loved him and wished the offseason drama didn't occur

[Roy H.]

It would take a special kind of terrible behaviour to get fired in the off-season after you win a title. [

David Blatt got fired after taking his team to the Finals, and then having his team on pace for 60 wins the following season.

Dwayne Casey got fired a few weeks into the season after winning COTY.  George Karl was fired 29 days after being named COTY.  I think Sam Mitchell was in a similar situation.

Ime obviously got fired after taking this team to the Finals, for behavior that apparently wasn't particularly egregious.

Teams have continuously shown they'll fire coaches based upon perceived talent, rather than wins.  I only hope the team does so.  If we win a title in spite of Joe, I don't think we should continue the experiment.