NBA First Team: Tatum or Edwards?

[Roy H.]

It amazes me that guys like Kendrick Perkins are weighing in on decisions that could drastically affect a player's income.

I loved Perk the player.  ESPN Perk is just not an insightful analyst. 

[Who]

The real debate I have seen is between Tatum and Brunson.  While I think JT gets it, I would not be surprised if Brunson got the nod.

Yep. You can track it here.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/htmlview#

Tatum has 6 of the first 7 votes for All-NBA 1st Team that have been recorded thus far, with Brunson having 2 of 7. Astonishingly, Perkins had both Tatum and Brunson on there with Giannis left off.

That is what I want.

Giannis doesn't deserve First Team All-NBA. His team has been too bad. He has Damian Lillard next to him. Who has Brunson got? Randle who has missed half of a season. Anunoby / RJ Barret who missed half a season. Brunson deserves it over Giannis. Heck, NY even finished 2nd in the East over Milwaukee.

The Knicks finished exactly one game ahead of the Bucks. Giannis finished ahead of Brunson in EPM, BPM, win shares/48 and is a dramatically better defender. I don't really see much of an argument that Brunson should be in over Giannis.

Brunson/Tatum is debatable, but i think being on a 64 win team is a good tiebreaker.

1 game more with his 2nd and 3rd best players missing half a season. His starting center missing 2/3rds or 3/4 of the season.

Meanwhile Giannis has Damian Lillard next to him. You get Damian Lillard as your co-star, and the other guy is missing his not-as-talented co-stars for half season, you gotta win more games. A lot more games.

Giannis did not do that. He does not deserve First Team All-NBA over Brunson.

[Moranis]

The real debate I have seen is between Tatum and Brunson.  While I think JT gets it, I would not be surprised if Brunson got the nod.

Yep. You can track it here.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/htmlview#

Tatum has 6 of the first 7 votes for All-NBA 1st Team that have been recorded thus far, with Brunson having 2 of 7. Astonishingly, Perkins had both Tatum and Brunson on there with Giannis left off.

That is what I want.

Giannis doesn't deserve First Team All-NBA. His team has been too bad. He has Damian Lillard next to him. Who has Brunson got? Randle who has missed half of a season. Anunoby / RJ Barret who missed half a season. Brunson deserves it over Giannis. Heck, NY even finished 2nd in the East over Milwaukee.

The Knicks finished exactly one game ahead of the Bucks. Giannis finished ahead of Brunson in EPM, BPM, win shares/48 and is a dramatically better defender. I don't really see much of an argument that Brunson should be in over Giannis.

Brunson/Tatum is debatable, but i think being on a 64 win team is a good tiebreaker.

1 game more with his 2nd and 3rd best players missing half a season. His starting center missing 2/3rds or 3/4 of the season.

Meanwhile Giannis has Damian Lillard next to him. You get Damian Lillard as your co-star, and the other guy is missing his not-as-talented co-stars for half season, you gotta win more games. A lot more games.

Giannis did not do that. He does not deserve First Team All-NBA over Brunson.

Giannis had better totals/averages and advanced numbers

[Who]

The real debate I have seen is between Tatum and Brunson.  While I think JT gets it, I would not be surprised if Brunson got the nod.

Yep. You can track it here.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/htmlview#

Tatum has 6 of the first 7 votes for All-NBA 1st Team that have been recorded thus far, with Brunson having 2 of 7. Astonishingly, Perkins had both Tatum and Brunson on there with Giannis left off.

That is what I want.

Giannis doesn't deserve First Team All-NBA. His team has been too bad. He has Damian Lillard next to him. Who has Brunson got? Randle who has missed half of a season. Anunoby / RJ Barret who missed half a season. Brunson deserves it over Giannis. Heck, NY even finished 2nd in the East over Milwaukee.

The Knicks finished exactly one game ahead of the Bucks. Giannis finished ahead of Brunson in EPM, BPM, win shares/48 and is a dramatically better defender. I don't really see much of an argument that Brunson should be in over Giannis.

Brunson/Tatum is debatable, but i think being on a 64 win team is a good tiebreaker.

1 game more with his 2nd and 3rd best players missing half a season. His starting center missing 2/3rds or 3/4 of the season.

Meanwhile Giannis has Damian Lillard next to him. You get Damian Lillard as your co-star, and the other guy is missing his not-as-talented co-stars for half season, you gotta win more games. A lot more games.

Giannis did not do that. He does not deserve First Team All-NBA over Brunson.

Giannis had better totals/averages and advanced numbers

That is not everything.

His team success is not there.

[droopdog7]

JT currently behind Brunson for first team all nba.  So very real chance he won’t make it.  What’s a little crazy is that jt not on first, second, or third on two ballots.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/htmlview#

[Roy H.]

JT currently behind Brunson for first team all nba.  So very real chance he won’t make it.  What’s a little crazy is that jt not on first, second, or third on two ballots.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/htmlview#

That wouldn't be crazy, that would be downright corrupt.

But, it looks like the only two ballots that JT was left off of didn't name their second and third teams publicly.

[jpotter33]

JT currently behind Brunson for first team all nba.  So very real chance he won’t make it.  What’s a little crazy is that jt not on first, second, or third on two ballots.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/htmlview#

That wouldn't be crazy, that would be downright corrupt.

But, it looks like the only two ballots that JT was left off of didn't name their second and third teams publicly.

Yeah, was coming here to say this. He’ll no doubt be on second team for those, so he’s slightly ahead in total points 42 to 40.

I am surprised it’s that close, though. A lot of recency bias going into that, as well as a lack of context. And for all the talk of the “Boston media machine”, the Brunson narrative is a product of the much larger “New York media machine”. Even saw one NY guy (Yaya) try to argue for Rose over Stevens for EOTY.

[scaryjerry]

Not only did Jayson Tatum fall out of the MVP race but I think its highly likely he falls out of the first team all nba race, I think he’s becoming one of the more hated and disrespected players in the game and while I’m a big fan of his unfortunately some it’s warranted. He’s a really good player, nothing more….hopefully he proves me wrong this postseason because imo that’s what’s holding us from a championship

[Roy H.]

Not only did Jayson Tatum fall out of the MVP race but I think its highly likely he falls out of the first team all nba race, I think he’s becoming one of the more hated and disrespected players in the game and while I’m a big fan of his unfortunately some it’s warranted. He’s a really good player, nothing more….hopefully he proves me wrong this postseason because imo that’s what’s holding us from a championship

He's a top-five player, particularly when you factor in defense.

[Phantom255x]

Not only did Jayson Tatum fall out of the MVP race but I think its highly likely he falls out of the first team all nba race, I think he’s becoming one of the more hated and disrespected players in the game and while I’m a big fan of his unfortunately some it’s warranted. He’s a really good player, nothing more….hopefully he proves me wrong this postseason because imo that’s what’s holding us from a championship

I don't think he's "hated" but I think Draymond is right, his Finals performance in 2022 is something people will hold against him until he finally gets over the hump. Tatum's already accomplished a lot but he still needs that ring to really put it all together. And while it's definitely not all his fault, there have been other years in recent times where he could have done more to propel the team deep in the playoffs and he didn't. I'd argue same last year, yes he got hurt early in Game 7 unfortunately but why were some of these series going 6-7 games, and why did we fall behind 3-0 to Miami?

I've said this before though, I think Brunson might deserve 1st team all-NBA this season. He's absolutely carried that Knicks team despite all their injuries to the 2 seed and he's put up excellent numbers too. It's not "empty stats" or "stat padding", no they've needed it and he's come through often

[scaryjerry]

Not only did Jayson Tatum fall out of the MVP race but I think its highly likely he falls out of the first team all nba race, I think he’s becoming one of the more hated and disrespected players in the game and while I’m a big fan of his unfortunately some it’s warranted. He’s a really good player, nothing more….hopefully he proves me wrong this postseason because imo that’s what’s holding us from a championship

He's a top-five player, particularly when you factor in defense.

He flirts with top 5 for sure idk I think he’s more top 10

Really good player

[Big333223]

JT currently behind Brunson for first team all nba.  So very real chance he won’t make it.  What’s a little crazy is that jt not on first, second, or third on two ballots.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/htmlview#

That wouldn't be crazy, that would be downright corrupt.

But, it looks like the only two ballots that JT was left off of didn't name their second and third teams publicly.

Yeah, was coming here to say this. He’ll no doubt be on second team for those, so he’s slightly ahead in total points 42 to 40.

I am surprised it’s that close, though. A lot of recency bias going into that, as well as a lack of context. And for all the talk of the “Boston media machine”, the Brunson narrative is a product of the much larger “New York media machine”. Even saw one NY guy (Yaya) try to argue for Rose over Stevens for EOTY.

Yep. Brunson is benefiting from having a bunch of big games that were huge for his team down the stretch while Tatum barely played the last couple of weeks. Credit to Brunson for balling out when he needed to but Tatum doesn't have any recent highlights because he helped his team to such a good record he earned himself a rest. That should count for something.

[Who]

I think Tatum suffers the opposite of the Derrick Rose 2011 MVP problem.

Rose played on a dominant Bulls team that led league in the regular season. He was dominant individually. However, his team was dominant defensively and lacked high level supporting scorers. Boozer was in decline. Deng was useful but not a real 2nd scorer. Noah was a defender / rebounder / passer. A facilitator. And they had a strong bench and great coach. Well the result was that D-Rose got a disproportiante amount of credit for the Bulls success while his teammates got too little credit.

Tatum plays on a similarly dominant regular season team but he plays with more offensively talented teammates. Jaylen Brown and Kristaps Porzingis. Two highly skilled offensive players. Then you have Jrue Holiday who was the 2nd/3rd option in Milwaukee accepting a reduced role as a 4th/5th option. And D White. But these are a talented offensive supporting cast whereas Rose had a talented defensive supporting cast.

So I think voters and people around the league share the credit for Boston's success more around the team than individual-centric on Tatum. The opposite of what they did with D-Rose. And Tatum doesn't get the credit he really deserves for how well he has played this year because of it.

[Moranis]

Not only did Jayson Tatum fall out of the MVP race but I think its highly likely he falls out of the first team all nba race, I think he’s becoming one of the more hated and disrespected players in the game and while I’m a big fan of his unfortunately some it’s warranted. He’s a really good player, nothing more….hopefully he proves me wrong this postseason because imo that’s what’s holding us from a championship

He's a top-five player, particularly when you factor in defense.

Is he?  I mean it seems pretty clear that he is behind Jokic, Giannis, Luka, and SGA at least at this point.  And I think most people would have a hard time calling him a better player than Embiid (obviously he is much healthier than Joel), which makes him no better than 6th.  Then you still have the older guys like Curry, Durant, and Kawhi.  Tatum was definitely trending towards clear top 5, but I think he hit the wall and I'm not sure he is getting over it.  A strong consistent and deep playoff run could certainly swing that tide back some though, so let's all hope that happens.

[Roy H.]

Not only did Jayson Tatum fall out of the MVP race but I think its highly likely he falls out of the first team all nba race, I think he’s becoming one of the more hated and disrespected players in the game and while I’m a big fan of his unfortunately some it’s warranted. He’s a really good player, nothing more….hopefully he proves me wrong this postseason because imo that’s what’s holding us from a championship

He's a top-five player, particularly when you factor in defense.

Is he?  I mean it seems pretty clear that he is behind Jokic, Giannis, Luka, and SGA at least at this point.  And I think most people would have a hard time calling him a better player than Embiid (obviously he is much healthier than Joel), which makes him no better than 6th.  Then you still have the older guys like Curry, Durant, and Kawhi.  Tatum was definitely trending towards clear top 5, but I think he hit the wall and I'm not sure he is getting over it.  A strong consistent and deep playoff run could certainly swing that tide back some though, so let's all hope that happens.

He's a top-five player this year.  Defense, durability and winning matter.