Author Topic: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill  (Read 8761 times)

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Re: Welcome to the Treadmill
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2019, 05:29:46 AM »

Offline Androslav

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I would like to apologize. I was going through serious denial because the thought of Irving and KD, following believing for months we were going to have Irving and AD, was just too alluring.

I’ve taken this time off and become a HUGE fan of Kemba. Sportsman of the year in 2017-2018. Furthermore, he may not be as good one-on-one as Kyrie, but I have no doubt he is going to outperform Kyrie and lift up his teammates in Brad Stevens’ system. If Kawhi heads west, why not us?

I can envision Kemba and Tatum leading us to the promised land.
TP for owning your past takes and your optimism going forward.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 05:35:08 AM by Androslav »
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Re: Welcome to the Treadmill
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2019, 06:52:39 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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If guys don't take a leap it is the treadmill for a while. Hopefully guys will get better and DA gets lucky with the Grizz pick.

Re: Welcome to the Treadmill
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2019, 10:28:12 AM »

Offline kmart12

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While the initial post was a strong take, I don't think it's necessarily off-base. We, like several other teams in this league, are waiting on a set of variables to play out and none of us can predict the future. There are definitely certainties, such as Kemba Walker being an All-NBA point guard and Enes Kanter bringing our team some much needed rebounding and offensive interior presence; however, we rely heavily on players who have promising trajectories but are not fully established.

Imagine if a guy like Tatum, for example, takes the leap this year and turns into the second coming of (insert All-NBA player)? That completely changes the dynamic of this team and how our future will play out. Similarly, what if Gordon Hayward breaks out of his shell and returns to All-Star caliber pre-Celtics form? Again, you're looking at a different team if something that significant, yet not entirely out-of-reach, happens. It's all a possibility, but the opposite is equally as possible and that's challenging part of accepting our team as is.

Re: Welcome to the Treadmill
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2019, 10:38:23 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Treadmill implies they're locked in. They're not.

If this doesn't work they can easily trade any of these guys. They could all out tank if they wanted to.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: Welcome to the Treadmill
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2019, 10:40:23 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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I would like to apologize. I was going through serious denial because the thought of Irving and KD, following believing for months we were going to have Irving and AD, was just too alluring.

I’ve taken this time off and become a HUGE fan of Kemba. Sportsman of the year in 2017-2018. Furthermore, he may not be as good one-on-one as Kyrie, but I have no doubt he is going to outperform Kyrie and lift up his teammates in Brad Stevens’ system. If Kawhi heads west, why not us?

I can envision Kemba and Tatum leading us to the promised land.
I going to take this as sincerity and not passive aggressive sarcasm due to your "time off". It's good to admit when you are wrong.

I was for a while saying I thought sign and trades were dead and really criticized sign and trade proposals. Turns out 2019 turned into the summer of sign and trades....from outta nowhere. I was completely wrong. Props to those that believed sign and trades were going to happen. I am happy to eat my crow.

Re: Welcome to the Treadmill
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2019, 10:42:02 AM »

Offline BringToughnessBack

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I would rather be on a treadmill then being dragged behind a speeding car with myself tied to the trunk. I was a huge supporter of Kyrie but I learned my lesson and have finally come around. You just cannot please him and he simply did not lead like a leader has to do.

 One of your two top stars on your team needs to assume the leadership role...take players out to dinner, spend time with them, teach them what to do and what not to do....Kyrie had his chance to take Brown and Tatum both under his wing. He had a chance to lead by example.

I should have shot more comment is not how you unite a team in a crucial playoff series. How about together as a team, we will get this thing figured out with tireless work and adjustments and unselfish play. That is what a leader does...A leader comes out of the locker room when injured and finds a way back on the court..A leader brings their team back from insurmountable odds. A leader does not simply put up amazing regular season stats...he is a uniter....a teacher...a lead by example person

I think Kemba could be our new leader. Brown or Tatum eventually when they get a bit more seasoned.

There will never be any appeasing Kyrie...it wont show first year in NJ but it will show within a few years. Wait for it....He will not retire in Brooklyn and that coach will not survive Kyrie’s wrath.

In a perfect flat world, Kyrie is the King......but we all know the world is not flat and Kyrie is not a King. Kyrie already served under his king and that was Lebron.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 10:51:22 AM by BringToughnessBack »

Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2019, 03:17:31 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Around the league this offseason it's clear that there are buyers and sellers, contending teams and rebuilding teams. The contending teams are offloading massive assets to compete in what looks to be the most open field in years. The rebuilding teams are selling, collecting assets and taking advantage of the most desperate buyers with trades that make the Nets deal look like a box of flaming garbage.

I am extremely concerned that the Celtics are determined to be among the "buyers" with no clear path forward. They still have assets but are no longer leading the pack in that department. At this point, they could easily be outbid for the next star to get on the market. Actually, it may not even be in Ainge's nature to ever make a clearance-house type deal that LAC and LAL have made recently. Even in the Garnett deal the only really consequential piece they lost was Jefferson.

I know that the Celtics' policy is to consistently be competitive and I don't disagree with signing Kemba as an asset, but they need to be wary of the position they are currently in. The future of the franchise is heavily dependent on the development of Tatum and Brown right now, and they are 7-8 years younger than Kemba and Hayward. More and more teams are being run competently these days and are setting themselves up with strong young nuclei that may outclass our present duo. Teams like Memphis, Atlanta, Dallas, New Orleans, even Sacramento.

If we can't claim to have one of the best young cores while also having one of the weaker max combos of Hayward and Kemba, that is not an enviable position. If it becomes clear there are no moves to make in the near future, they will seriously need to consider moving assets and taking a step back as opposed to futile steps forward.

I expect most fans will disagree with this post, but I'm just saying the Celtics brass needs to be extremely careful with how they proceed. The league has recalibrated itself this offseason for at least the next two years. They need to take a hard look at exactly where they stand in this new landscape.

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2019, 03:30:00 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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I trust Ainge more than some random poster on a forum. These guys know more than we know, and it doesn't surprise me a bit that what we see isn't what they see as well. They are certainly operating under different information than us.

If you told me before that the Celtics would lose both Horford and Kyrie, I would certainly not say that we could get Kanter and Kemba at least.

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2019, 03:45:19 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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I trust Ainge more than some random poster on a forum. These guys know more than we know, and it doesn't surprise me a bit that what we see isn't what they see as well. They are certainly operating under different information than us.

If you told me before that the Celtics would lose both Horford and Kyrie, I would certainly not say that we could get Kanter and Kemba at least.

Um, exactly what do you think internet forums are for? Why do you read anybody's opinion at all if it ultimately doesn't matter? We're all on this board because we like to read and offer opinions, aren't we? Or are we here to just root, root, root for the home team and never second-guess anything?

Also, you could say the Celtics losing Horford and Kyrie for nothing and steadfastly operating under an AD targeting plan when he wanted nothing to do with us show they aren't necessarily the best predictors either, even with all the "inside info."


Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2019, 05:00:29 AM »

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What exactly could they have done? Trading for Kawhi would have been a mistake, knowing that he is departing for LA. One title is not enough for me. Even the Big 3 should have won at least one more title. We would have been left with nothing. It's better to consistently be competitive and in a position to take advantage of injuries or meltdowns (see: Toronto 2019). What would you say about Toronto's gamble if Durant remained healthy and GS won?

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2019, 07:08:49 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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What exactly could they have done? Trading for Kawhi would have been a mistake, knowing that he is departing for LA. One title is not enough for me. Even the Big 3 should have won at least one more title. We would have been left with nothing. It's better to consistently be competitive and in a position to take advantage of injuries or meltdowns (see: Toronto 2019). What would you say about Toronto's gamble if Durant remained healthy and GS won?

Where did you get the idea I thought trading for Kawhi was smart? I always thought he wanted to go to LA, now we know just how important it was to him. He left a team that won the title!

My original post is more about where the league is now and how to move forward. Unless you draft incredibly well (like, think GS and OKC with Curry/Green/Thompson and Harden/Durant/Westbrook - not really a realistic goal to have for even teams great at drafting) you are going to be at the mercy of stars choosing to come to your organization.

Kyrie was our lure to get one of those players, because stars are not clamoring to team up with Horford or Hayward or even Kemba. So we've missed out on this cycle, how do we make sure we don't miss on the next one?

One of the issues with missing this superstar cycle is that soon the window in which to add talent while Tatum and Brown are on their rookie deals is running out. The other issue is that the cost of acquiring a superstar in trade has skyrocketed, and we're no longer the only team with a collection of valuable assets. Previously everybody considered the Celtics to have the ability to outbid anybody in a superstar trade. That's no longer the case.

Being a good organization certainly has value, but being a consistent winner is slightly overrated IMO. BKN and LAC were not consistent winners. They drafted or traded well, cleared most of their cap space, and were just attractive enough (in addition to being in major cities) to lure star free agents over. We are not in that position because we have Hayward and Kemba eating huge chunk of our cap, and now Brown is slated to eat up more.

The next superstar who might move is Giannis. Beal or Westbrook do not really fit with our team considering what we already have here. Towns seems OK in Minnie now, but even if he became unhappy I don't think he can be the no 1 option on a contender. At his maturity level, I see him more likely ending up on a team with an established alpha veteran star, similar to what Davis did. Turner or Sabonis might become available, but neither are really elite.

So, how do we create a scenario where Giannis might agree to come here in a potential trade? Let's assume for the purposes of this exercise that he doesn't pull a Davis/Kawhi, i.e. is hell-bent on signing with a team like LAL or NYK when he's unrestricted. I really don't believe we would have either the best team or the best offer. New Orleans could easily say, we'll give you Hayes, Ingram, Ball, our 2020 pick, and a bunch of the Lakers' picks. You get to play with Zion and Holiday. GS could say, come play with Green, Curry, and Thompson, we'll deal D'Angelo Russell and a bunch of future picks (remember, convincing Giannis is the first part of the equation. The return doesn't matter if Giannis won't express a willingness to re-sign). The Hawks could say, come play with Trae Young. We'll deal Collins, our own pick, BKNs pick, and throw in one of Reddish, Huerter, or Hunter.

Maybe Kemba, Hayward, and one remaining of Brown/Tatum could be enough of a lure, but it's no slam dunk. I will say that if the goal is to be attractive enough to lure Giannis, actually dealing for Beal might be a risk you should take. If you can say you get to play with Kemba and Beal at the guard spots, and Hayward and/or whoever is left out of Tatum and Brown, you've got a really attractive win-now location for a player like Giannis, even if he doesn't really like playing the 5. [EDIT: Oops, I didn't subtract what it would take to deal for Giannis. So it would probably be like only one of the three of Hayward, Brown, and Tatum remaining, not 2 out of the 3. One thing is also for certain, we desperately need the Memphis pick to become a big asset]

« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 07:24:37 AM by obnoxiousmime »

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2019, 07:14:19 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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What exactly could they have done? Trading for Kawhi would have been a mistake, knowing that he is departing for LA. One title is not enough for me. Even the Big 3 should have won at least one more title. We would have been left with nothing. It's better to consistently be competitive and in a position to take advantage of injuries or meltdowns (see: Toronto 2019). What would you say about Toronto's gamble if Durant remained healthy and GS won?

Where did you get the idea I thought trading for Kawhi was smart? I always thought he wanted to go to LA, now we know just how important it was to him. He left a team that won the title!

My original post is more about where the league is now and how to move forward. Unless you draft incredibly well (like, think GS and OKC with Curry/Green/Thompson and Harden/Durant/Westbrook - not really a realistic goal to have for even teams great at drafting) you are going to be at the mercy of stars choosing to come to your organization.

Kyrie was our lure to get one of those players, because stars are not clamoring to team up with Horford or Hayward or even Kemba. So we've missed out on this cycle, how do we make sure we don't miss on the next one?

One of the issues with missing this superstar cycle is that soon the window in which to add talent while Tatum and Brown are on their rookie deals is running out. The other issue is that the cost of acquiring a superstar in trade has skyrocketed, and we're no longer the only team with a collection of valuable assets. Previously everybody considered the Celtics to have the ability to outbid anybody in a superstar trade. That's no longer the case.

Being a good organization certainly has value, but being a consistent winner is slightly overrated IMO. BKN and LAC were not consistent winners. They drafted or traded well, cleared most of their cap space, and were just attractive enough (in addition to being in major cities) to lure star free agents over. We are not in that position because we have Hayward and Kemba eating huge chunk of our cap, and now Brown is slated to eat up more.

The next superstar who might move is Giannis. Beal or Westbrook do not really fit with our team considering what we already have here. Towns seems OK in Minnie now, but even if he became unhappy I don't think he can be the no 1 option on a contender. At his maturity level, I see him more likely ending up on a team with an established alpha veteran star, similar to what Davis did. Turner or Sabonis might become available, but neither are really elite.

So, how do we create a scenario where Giannis might agree to come here in a potential trade? Let's assume for the purposes of this exercise that he doesn't pull a Davis/Kawhi, i.e. is hell-bent on signing with a team like LAL or NYK when he's unrestricted. I really don't believe we would have either the best team or the best offer. New Orleans could easily say, we'll give you Hayes, Ingram, Ball, our 2020 pick, and a bunch of the Lakers' picks. You get to play with Zion and Holiday. GS could say, come play with Green, Curry, and Thompson, we'll deal D'Angelo Russell and a bunch of future picks (remember, convincing Giannis is the first part of the equation. The return doesn't matter if Giannis won't express a willingness to re-sign). The Hawks could say, come play with Trae Young. We'll deal Collins, our own pick, BKNs pick, and throw in one of Reddish, Huerter, or Hunter.

Maybe Kemba, Hayward, and one remaining of Brown/Tatum could be enough of a lure, but it's no slam dunk. I will say that if the goal is to be attractive enough to lure Giannis, actually dealing for Beal might be a risk you should take. If you can say you get to play with Kemba and Beal at the guard spots, and Hayward and/or whoever is left out of Tatum and Brown, you've got a really attractive win-now location for a player like Giannis, even if he doesn't really like playing the 5.

But good teams comes with good management. Sean Marks and Jerry West are far cry from Billy King and Doc the GM or any previous Clippers management.

Nets made a fantastic job of getting free from the disaster that Billy King and the Nets owner caused. Jerry West knew that Blake Griffin won't get them anywhere so they sent him to Pistons for a retool. It only helps that Steve Balmer isn't meddling with any of the team's transactions.

Nets has been consistently going upward. And never doubt Jerry West on handling teams. His resume speak volumes. So the narrative that neither Clippers or Nets weren't consistently good are false. If it was the Lakers, I would definitely agree.

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2019, 07:27:00 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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I trust Ainge more than some random poster on a forum. These guys know more than we know, and it doesn't surprise me a bit that what we see isn't what they see as well. They are certainly operating under different information than us.

If you told me before that the Celtics would lose both Horford and Kyrie, I would certainly not say that we could get Kanter and Kemba at least.

Um, exactly what do you think internet forums are for? Why do you read anybody's opinion at all if it ultimately doesn't matter? We're all on this board because we like to read and offer opinions, aren't we? Or are we here to just root, root, root for the home team and never second-guess anything?

Also, you could say the Celtics losing Horford and Kyrie for nothing and steadfastly operating under an AD targeting plan when he wanted nothing to do with us show they aren't necessarily the best predictors either, even with all the "inside info."

Lol the mere fact that they didn't trade for AD means that they already knew Kyrie wasn't staying. Just because nobody told you doesnt mean that they didnt know.

Sure, they cant 100% predict whats gonna happen, but they can make the better informed choice than our random hypothesis and speculations.

The Lakers just lost on Kawhi. Clearly they didnt know the outcome. So should they not try instead?

When opportunity presents itself, you go for it. If you fail, you must have plan b, plan c or plan d. And Kemba Walker while still maintaining assets and flexibility is a dang good one.

Some view that an asset like kyrie walkig for nothing is a mess up on our managements part. I dont. We traded an injured IT for him, it was the best we couldve done with the misfortune of injuries.

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2019, 07:37:43 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
I trust Ainge more than some random poster on a forum.

Amen. TP

Re: Concerned that the Celtics seem determined to stay on the treadmill
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2019, 07:52:44 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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But good teams comes with good management. Sean Marks and Jerry West are far cry from Billy King and Doc the GM or any previous Clippers management.

Nets made a fantastic job of getting free from the disaster that Billy King and the Nets owner caused. Jerry West knew that Blake Griffin won't get them anywhere so they sent him to Pistons for a retool. It only helps that Steve Balmer isn't meddling with any of the team's transactions.

Nets has been consistently going upward. And never doubt Jerry West on handling teams. His resume speak volumes. So the narrative that neither Clippers or Nets weren't consistently good are false. If it was the Lakers, I would definitely agree.

But good teams comes with good management. Sean Marks and Jerry West are far cry from Billy King and Doc the GM or any previous Clippers management.

Nets made a fantastic job of getting free from the disaster that Billy King and the Nets owner caused. Jerry West knew that Blake Griffin won't get them anywhere so they sent him to Pistons for a retool. It only helps that Steve Balmer isn't meddling with any of the team's transactions.

Nets has been consistently going upward. And never doubt Jerry West on handling teams. His resume speak volumes. So the narrative that neither Clippers or Nets weren't consistently good are false. If it was the Lakers, I would definitely agree.
[/quote]

That wasn't really what I was saying and nor do their situations match our own. What the Celtics have done is already use up their space with stars like Kemba and Hayward while supplementing that with young guys like Brown and Tatum. They can't easily clear up that space to facilitate a FA star signing here, it would have to be through a trade.

What I was more or less saying is taking a step back is not necessarily a bad move. The Griffin deal meant the Clippers were bad one year and it allowed them to draft SGA. Brooklyn cleared out their cap space and drafted well, and even sold their space to acquire pieces like Russell. The point is, if the Celtics took this path (trade Hayward, never signed Kemba) it would have been a step back for one year in terms of wins and losses, but it would be resetting our team back to before Hayward and Horford signed, which is a young overachieving team that maybe makes the playoffs and is ready for FAs to sign into our available cap space.

Of course, I wouldn't necessarily do that for next year's offseason because it happens to be a horrible FA class, and also Boston is not a location where guys like Kawhi will telegraph they are coming a year in advance like he did with LAC, or like how Lebron to LA went down. Though, I suppose you could say Hayward rumored to want to reunite with Stevens throughout his last season in Indy to be kind of a similar thing (if only Hayward was a little better...).