New York rejects Denver's asking price for Carmelo

[Celts17Pride]

Per Marc Stein's Twitter: "Rising belief around NBA that some sort of franchise tag on way, along w/Melo's open lust for extension by June 30, changing tune out there"

[Fafnir]

I don't see the value in Chauncey Billups for NY. He is too old.

NY would still need to make further additions to their squad to be a title contender after this trade ... and Chauncey simply won't be an elite player for long enough to give them a long enough window at a title.

He is only under contract until 2012, the same year chris paul and deron williams could be free agents.

They would be able to offer either of those guys a max contract.

No they won't, they'll have Amar'e and Melo under max deals at that point right?

They won't have cap room to get another max level FA.

It depends.  Amare's salary would be around $20 million, Carmelo's will probably be similar.  Let's assume the cap is somewhere between $60 and $65 million.  Assuming that the Knicks clear the deck and don't add any contracts, they should be able to fit CP3 under their cap.  It leaves them with a three man roster, but it's a pretty dang good one that they could fill in using the MLE, draft picks, etc.

They'd have 40 millions for two guys, plus the roster cap holds for 10 other players for another 5 million. That's $45 million of salary assuming they've cleared out everyone else. That's cutting it close if the cap is around 60 million, and that's assuming they dump everyone.

[Fafnir]

Per Marc Stein's Twitter: "Rising belief around NBA that some sort of franchise tag on way, along w/Melo's open lust for extension by June 30, changing tune out there"

Honestly given the amount of leaking and counter leakign going on I'm not sure how much credence I give people on this sort of thing.

I'm sure owners are pushing for a franchise tag, I doubt players will give in on it.

[Celts17Pride]

Per Marc Stein's Twitter: "Rising belief around NBA that some sort of franchise tag on way, along w/Melo's open lust for extension by June 30, changing tune out there"

Honestly given the amount of leaking and counter leakign going on I'm not sure how much credence I give people on this sort of thing.

I'm sure owners are pushing for a franchise tag, I doubt players will give in on it.

thus, lockout.

[PosImpos]

Per Marc Stein's Twitter: "Rising belief around NBA that some sort of franchise tag on way, along w/Melo's open lust for extension by June 30, changing tune out there"

Honestly given the amount of leaking and counter leakign going on I'm not sure how much credence I give people on this sort of thing.

I'm sure owners are pushing for a franchise tag, I doubt players will give in on it.

The owners are gonna lock out the players until they get some kind of mechanism in place that guarantees they won't suffer any more Bosh / LeBron situations.

Owners are not interested in drafting and developing superstars only to have them bolt town after 5-6 years and leave the franchise with nothing.

Also, the players surely like this current situation where they have the power to practically orchestrate multi-team trades and ensure they end up on a particular team with certain other players.  However, you can be sure the owners don't want this stuff to continue.  There will have to be serious concessions by the players to prevent more Miami Thrice situations from popping up.  As we can see with Melo and rumblings about CP3, Dwight, and D-Will, things are getting bad around the NBA.  Superstars are practically holding their teams hostage.

In short, expect the owners to gain back a lot of the power they've lost to the players in recent years.  Right now the players seem to be in more control than the owners are, and that's not something I expect to continue.

[Fafnir]

Per Marc Stein's Twitter: "Rising belief around NBA that some sort of franchise tag on way, along w/Melo's open lust for extension by June 30, changing tune out there"

Honestly given the amount of leaking and counter leakign going on I'm not sure how much credence I give people on this sort of thing.

I'm sure owners are pushing for a franchise tag, I doubt players will give in on it.

The owners are gonna lock out the players until they get some kind of mechanism in place that guarantees they won't suffer any more Bosh / LeBron situations.

Owners are not interested in drafting and developing superstars only to have them bolt town after 5-6 years and leave the franchise with nothing.

Also, the players surely like this current situation where they have the power to practically orchestrate multi-team trades and ensure they end up on a particular team with certain other players.  However, you can be sure the owners don't want this stuff to continue.  There will have to be serious concessions by the players to prevent more Miami Thrice situations from popping up.  As we can see with Melo and rumblings about CP3, Dwight, and D-Will, things are getting bad around the NBA.  Superstars are practically holding their teams hostage.

In short, expect the owners to gain back a lot of the power they've lost to the players in recent years.  Right now the players seem to be in more control than the owners are, and that's not something I expect to continue.

How are players get to choose where they'd like to play!

I don't think power is any more out of whack than before. Elite players have been pulling this sort of thing for years. Forcing trades, firing coaches, etc....

I'm not a fan of the a franchise tag preventing a player from leaving a bad situation. I suppose it wouldn't be so bad if it was RFA type tag, instead of a one year NFL style deal.

[xmuscularghandix]

I think that's a steep price and i agree with them rejecting it regardless. IMO New York is the only team that is really in the hunt, LA isn't going to happen. Why would The Knicks go through with a deal they think is too high when they aren't competing against any other offers?

If your town has two super markets then you'll get better prices because they must compete, if there's only one then they can jack up the price as much as they want.

If you have to get rid of something, and there's only one buyer... the buyer can pay whatever they want because they KNOW you have to get rid of it.



On the other side, Chauncey Billups would definitely work nice with Mike D'Antoni's system. He is excellent at shooting in transition.

Billups
Carmelo
Stoudemire      it doesn't scare me unless Knicks have defensive minded players at the other 2 starting positions. Landry is still a rookie but is a decent defender... Mozgov... i don't know.  Then again is ANYBODY a good defender if their coach is Mike D'Antoni?

[pearljammer10]

That asking price is too high. NY needs enough leftover to net Chris Paul. My feeling is, Walsh wants CP and Anthony this season before the deadline.

CP is not getting traded this season.  It wasn't happening before the Hornets became an NBA owned team, and it certainly isn't going to happen now.  Nobody is going to buy the Hornets if CP3 is traded away.

Yeah this is a very good point here. The NBA owns the Hornets, they arent going to trade away their franchise superstar and quite possibly the best point guard in the league to a hot market. There is no way the Knicks get both Melo and Paul this year. Paul isnt getting traded.

[Moranis]

Per Marc Stein's Twitter: "Rising belief around NBA that some sort of franchise tag on way, along w/Melo's open lust for extension by June 30, changing tune out there"

Honestly given the amount of leaking and counter leakign going on I'm not sure how much credence I give people on this sort of thing.

I'm sure owners are pushing for a franchise tag, I doubt players will give in on it.

The owners are gonna lock out the players until they get some kind of mechanism in place that guarantees they won't suffer any more Bosh / LeBron situations.

Owners are not interested in drafting and developing superstars only to have them bolt town after 5-6 years and leave the franchise with nothing.

Also, the players surely like this current situation where they have the power to practically orchestrate multi-team trades and ensure they end up on a particular team with certain other players.  However, you can be sure the owners don't want this stuff to continue.  There will have to be serious concessions by the players to prevent more Miami Thrice situations from popping up.  As we can see with Melo and rumblings about CP3, Dwight, and D-Will, things are getting bad around the NBA.  Superstars are practically holding their teams hostage.

In short, expect the owners to gain back a lot of the power they've lost to the players in recent years.  Right now the players seem to be in more control than the owners are, and that's not something I expect to continue.

I could see the players agreeing to some sort of franchise system if it could only be used once per team per player, only guaranteed 1 more year, and the salary was something like maximum plus 50% (so if the max was 20 million, they would get a 1 year contract for 30 million).

[Fafnir]

Per Marc Stein's Twitter: "Rising belief around NBA that some sort of franchise tag on way, along w/Melo's open lust for extension by June 30, changing tune out there"

Honestly given the amount of leaking and counter leakign going on I'm not sure how much credence I give people on this sort of thing.

I'm sure owners are pushing for a franchise tag, I doubt players will give in on it.

The owners are gonna lock out the players until they get some kind of mechanism in place that guarantees they won't suffer any more Bosh / LeBron situations.

Owners are not interested in drafting and developing superstars only to have them bolt town after 5-6 years and leave the franchise with nothing.

Also, the players surely like this current situation where they have the power to practically orchestrate multi-team trades and ensure they end up on a particular team with certain other players.  However, you can be sure the owners don't want this stuff to continue.  There will have to be serious concessions by the players to prevent more Miami Thrice situations from popping up.  As we can see with Melo and rumblings about CP3, Dwight, and D-Will, things are getting bad around the NBA.  Superstars are practically holding their teams hostage.

In short, expect the owners to gain back a lot of the power they've lost to the players in recent years.  Right now the players seem to be in more control than the owners are, and that's not something I expect to continue.

I could see the players agreeing to some sort of franchise system if it could only be used once per team per player, only guaranteed 1 more year, and the salary was something like maximum plus 50% (so if the max was 20 million, they would get a 1 year contract for 30 million).

Yeah if it was a one time, one year tag maybe it could get passed.

[Moranis]

Per Marc Stein's Twitter: "Rising belief around NBA that some sort of franchise tag on way, along w/Melo's open lust for extension by June 30, changing tune out there"

Honestly given the amount of leaking and counter leakign going on I'm not sure how much credence I give people on this sort of thing.

I'm sure owners are pushing for a franchise tag, I doubt players will give in on it.

The owners are gonna lock out the players until they get some kind of mechanism in place that guarantees they won't suffer any more Bosh / LeBron situations.

Owners are not interested in drafting and developing superstars only to have them bolt town after 5-6 years and leave the franchise with nothing.

Also, the players surely like this current situation where they have the power to practically orchestrate multi-team trades and ensure they end up on a particular team with certain other players.  However, you can be sure the owners don't want this stuff to continue.  There will have to be serious concessions by the players to prevent more Miami Thrice situations from popping up.  As we can see with Melo and rumblings about CP3, Dwight, and D-Will, things are getting bad around the NBA.  Superstars are practically holding their teams hostage.

In short, expect the owners to gain back a lot of the power they've lost to the players in recent years.  Right now the players seem to be in more control than the owners are, and that's not something I expect to continue.

I could see the players agreeing to some sort of franchise system if it could only be used once per team per player, only guaranteed 1 more year, and the salary was something like maximum plus 50% (so if the max was 20 million, they would get a 1 year contract for 30 million).

Yeah if it was a one time, one year tag maybe it could get passed.

another thing that might get passed is a restricted free agent tag, wherein if the player signs with another team, his original team has the ability to match, but the match also increases the salary 25% (or whatever) per season.  So if I'm tagged and sign a 4 year, 40 million dollar contract, my old team can match by signing me to a 4 year, 50 million dollar contract.  They could only tag me once.

[Rondo2287]

Per Marc Stein's Twitter: "Rising belief around NBA that some sort of franchise tag on way, along w/Melo's open lust for extension by June 30, changing tune out there"

Honestly given the amount of leaking and counter leakign going on I'm not sure how much credence I give people on this sort of thing.

I'm sure owners are pushing for a franchise tag, I doubt players will give in on it.

The owners are gonna lock out the players until they get some kind of mechanism in place that guarantees they won't suffer any more Bosh / LeBron situations.

Owners are not interested in drafting and developing superstars only to have them bolt town after 5-6 years and leave the franchise with nothing.

Also, the players surely like this current situation where they have the power to practically orchestrate multi-team trades and ensure they end up on a particular team with certain other players.  However, you can be sure the owners don't want this stuff to continue.  There will have to be serious concessions by the players to prevent more Miami Thrice situations from popping up.  As we can see with Melo and rumblings about CP3, Dwight, and D-Will, things are getting bad around the NBA.  Superstars are practically holding their teams hostage.

In short, expect the owners to gain back a lot of the power they've lost to the players in recent years.  Right now the players seem to be in more control than the owners are, and that's not something I expect to continue.

I could see the players agreeing to some sort of franchise system if it could only be used once per team per player, only guaranteed 1 more year, and the salary was something like maximum plus 50% (so if the max was 20 million, they would get a 1 year contract for 30 million).

Yeah if it was a one time, one year tag maybe it could get passed.

another thing that might get passed is a restricted free agent tag, wherein if the player signs with another team, his original team has the ability to match, but the match also increases the salary 25% (or whatever) per season.  So if I'm tagged and sign a 4 year, 40 million dollar contract, my old team can match by signing me to a 4 year, 50 million dollar contract.  They could only tag me once.

I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater here, this is the only time stars have bolted like this for the same team.  I don't think this will become a huge issue.  No need to change restricted free agency because of it.

[BballTim]

Per Marc Stein's Twitter: "Rising belief around NBA that some sort of franchise tag on way, along w/Melo's open lust for extension by June 30, changing tune out there"

Honestly given the amount of leaking and counter leakign going on I'm not sure how much credence I give people on this sort of thing.

I'm sure owners are pushing for a franchise tag, I doubt players will give in on it.

The owners are gonna lock out the players until they get some kind of mechanism in place that guarantees they won't suffer any more Bosh / LeBron situations.

Owners are not interested in drafting and developing superstars only to have them bolt town after 5-6 years and leave the franchise with nothing.

Also, the players surely like this current situation where they have the power to practically orchestrate multi-team trades and ensure they end up on a particular team with certain other players.  However, you can be sure the owners don't want this stuff to continue.  There will have to be serious concessions by the players to prevent more Miami Thrice situations from popping up.  As we can see with Melo and rumblings about CP3, Dwight, and D-Will, things are getting bad around the NBA.  Superstars are practically holding their teams hostage.

In short, expect the owners to gain back a lot of the power they've lost to the players in recent years.  Right now the players seem to be in more control than the owners are, and that's not something I expect to continue.

I could see the players agreeing to some sort of franchise system if it could only be used once per team per player, only guaranteed 1 more year, and the salary was something like maximum plus 50% (so if the max was 20 million, they would get a 1 year contract for 30 million).

Yeah if it was a one time, one year tag maybe it could get passed.

another thing that might get passed is a restricted free agent tag, wherein if the player signs with another team, his original team has the ability to match, but the match also increases the salary 25% (or whatever) per season.  So if I'm tagged and sign a 4 year, 40 million dollar contract, my old team can match by signing me to a 4 year, 50 million dollar contract.  They could only tag me once.

  It would be easier to just modify the current plan. Now if you leave you get slightly smaller raises and can sign for one less year. Increase the difference between the raises the teams can offer and make the S&T numbers the same as what the player's team can offer but don't let them get that extra year back.

[Assassin70]

I think I would pull the trigger on this one.  As I see it:

Chauncey and Billups aren't much different.  Billups is older, but he's a better shooter, and is a good passer.  With Carmelo there, the ball won't be in a point guard's hands quite as much, anyway.  Plus, Chauncey will have an expiring deal right before 2012, setting New York up well for CP3 or Deron (or potentially Howard).

The #1 picks aren't worth a whole heck of a lot, since they'll presumably be somewhere after 20th in the draft.  Not a huge sacrifice there.

Wilson Chandler is a restricted free agent.  They're not going to be able to sign him and sign Carmelo, so I don't see him as a major asset.

When you look at it that way, the only legitimate asset you're giving up for Carmelo is Gallinari.  That's a fair swap, I'd say, especially since the team will have to say goodbye to Gallinari if they hope to sign a 2012 free agent.

Of course, NY should wait this out a bit to see if Denver caves at all, but if this is the bottom line, I would pull the trigger without any hesitation.

This is what I have been trying to tell people Gallinari & Felton for Melo & Billups is basically what this trade is about.  The rest is really unknown.

Do the trade NOW!

[fairweatherfan]

Chauncey and Billups aren't much different. 

 

I think this is a good deal for the Knicks too.  But a lot hinges on how confident they are that they can get Paul.  Chandler is largely a moot addition because they can't realistically keep him and get Melo.  The other pieces seem pretty consistent with past versions of the deal.

The X-factors as I see it are:  their ability to get Paul; whether Chauncey is willing to leave Denver (he's a Colorado native and seems to want to retire there); and whether Melo would sign an extension with the Nuggets if he isn't traded. 

The last one sounds a little nuts, but Melo desperately wants to sign the extension, as it's probably a lot more lucrative than whatever he'd get under the new CBA.  He has been pretty adamant about not signing it with Denver, but it's possible the Nuggets could successfully call his bluff - and the Knicks' - by not trading him at all.