Trade Idea: Ball for Brogdon

[obnoxiousmime]

I think the Bulls are closer to blowing it up than they are to making win-now trades. I realize they've been extending their vets, but that seems more like an attempt to retain them as trade chips than an actual long-term commitment to competing. Weren't there whispers that LaVine was quietly being shopped this offseason?

[Who]

I think the Bulls are closer to blowing it up than they are to making win-now trades. I realize they've been extending their vets, but that seems more like an attempt to retain them as trade chips than an actual long-term commitment to competing. Weren't there whispers that LaVine was quietly being shopped this offseason?

Yeah, they shopped LaVine in the summer. The price was said to be high though. Not trying to get rid of him but trying instead to reshape their team.

They are reportedly trying to sign DeRozan to an extension now. That could be like you to boost his value and trade him later. Or it could be another signal that they are trying to avoid a full rebuild.

It sounds more to me like they just don't care about winning a championship. That their goal is to keep the team in the playoff race, keep ticket sales, keep merchandise sales, keep printing money. Winning a title is not of importance. Money is. They are content with their current place in the league so long as the money keeps rolling on in.

[Who]

It is amazing to think that Chicago have only really had one team that was a title contender in the last 24 years since Michael Jordan retired.

They had those miserable teams when MJ first retired. First with Elton Brand & Ron Artest. Then with kiddies. High schoolers like Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry. Then Scott Skiles comes in, Ben Gordon & Kirk Hinrich are drafted as proven college vets and the Baby Bulls comes about. They couldn't find a way to considate their talent. So that fell apart. Fell from a 45-49 win team to out of the playoffs. They luck their way into D-Rose in the draft. Rebuild around him.

Have a two year run in 2011 and 2012 where they were one of the best teams in the league. Then D-Rose gets hurt in the playoffs. That team falls apart. Struggle for a few years. Then try to hang on with old vets like D-Wade and Rondo. Then blow it up by trading Jimmy Butler for youth (Markkanen, LaVine). Still not winning. Get DeRozan. Get Lonzo. Back in low to mid playoff seed contention. Then Lonzo gets hurt. Back struggling to make the playoffs.

A pretty lousy 20-25 year period since MJ retired.

2 years as a title contender in 24 years.

We are very lucky to have had Danny Ainge as GM, this ownership group and now Brad Stevens as GM to give us so many wonderful years & success over the last 15-20 years. 1 title, 3 Finals appearances, I don't even know how many ECF or playoff finishes we've had. Plenty of both. Very fortunate to have them.

[JSD]

I don't like it for Chicago. I don't like the fit of Brogdon next to DeRozan and LaVine. I believe Brogdon to be too much of a one-on-one player, an iso type player, a ball-dominant player, to fit next to those two. DeRozan is also very much this same style of player.

LaVine is the least of the three of them but he still needs quite a bit of the ball given how prolific a scorer he is. LaVine is ball-dominant too but not as much as the other two. He blends better with other talent than those two do.

DeRozan and Brogdon would clash in a major way. DeRozan with his mid-post isos. Brogdon with his high PnR turning into isos. They would be a your turn, my turn type of offense.

Lonzo Ball was a great fit for Chicago because he was focused on team offense instead of individual offense. He was a passer, floor general and floor spacer first of all. That is why he fit so well next to two ball-dominant scorers. Chicago needs this type of a PG or a low usage type PG like they had with Pat Beverley in the 2nd half of last season. Not a high usage ball dominant PG like Brogdon.

Brogdon would have a similar effect in Chicago as in Boston. Two ball dominant stars only DeRozan is an even worse fit than Tatum or Jaylen are. LaVine is a similar fit. DeRozan's mid-post game fits worse. Brogdon played very well without the two stars on the floor alongside him here in Boston where Brogdon was allowed monopolize the offense but fell back into role player floor spacer mode when they were on the floor next to them because his offensive creation did not function well alongside them. It would be similar in Chicago. No use paying big (firsts, salary) for a guy who fits so badly next to your stars.

That does not even include Vucevic who needs touches and shots as well. I hadn't even thought of him. Worse again. Chicago need a team offense (Lonzo) or low usage style PG (Beverley). Not a medium efficiency high usage PG like Brogdon.

I get what you’re saying and I agree, but what about if Caruso was your main playmaker/point on the wing, I think that offense has good options

[Who]

I don't like it for Chicago. I don't like the fit of Brogdon next to DeRozan and LaVine. I believe Brogdon to be too much of a one-on-one player, an iso type player, a ball-dominant player, to fit next to those two. DeRozan is also very much this same style of player.

LaVine is the least of the three of them but he still needs quite a bit of the ball given how prolific a scorer he is. LaVine is ball-dominant too but not as much as the other two. He blends better with other talent than those two do.

DeRozan and Brogdon would clash in a major way. DeRozan with his mid-post isos. Brogdon with his high PnR turning into isos. They would be a your turn, my turn type of offense.

Lonzo Ball was a great fit for Chicago because he was focused on team offense instead of individual offense. He was a passer, floor general and floor spacer first of all. That is why he fit so well next to two ball-dominant scorers. Chicago needs this type of a PG or a low usage type PG like they had with Pat Beverley in the 2nd half of last season. Not a high usage ball dominant PG like Brogdon.

Brogdon would have a similar effect in Chicago as in Boston. Two ball dominant stars only DeRozan is an even worse fit than Tatum or Jaylen are. LaVine is a similar fit. DeRozan's mid-post game fits worse. Brogdon played very well without the two stars on the floor alongside him here in Boston where Brogdon was allowed monopolize the offense but fell back into role player floor spacer mode when they were on the floor next to them because his offensive creation did not function well alongside them. It would be similar in Chicago. No use paying big (firsts, salary) for a guy who fits so badly next to your stars.

That does not even include Vucevic who needs touches and shots as well. I hadn't even thought of him. Worse again. Chicago need a team offense (Lonzo) or low usage style PG (Beverley). Not a medium efficiency high usage PG like Brogdon.

I get what you’re saying and I agree, but what about if Caruso was your main playmaker/point on the wing, I think that offense has good options

Yes, I think Caruso is the best man for the job. Ideally you'd want someone with a bit more offense than Caruso but I agree he is the best option they got.

Chicago started Dosunmo ahead of him last year though. Not sure why. Both guys are limited offensively. Caruso better defensively. Maybe they just like Caruso as a change-of-pace player off the bench. An energizer.

[Vermont Green]

Why would anyone trade 2 1st round picks for Brogdon

Turning dead cap space into Brogdon has to be worth something. Portland isn’t going to take on $20 Million of dead space for nothing, I don’t think 1 pick is enough.

So let’s say it’s a first and a second. Who says no?

1 first for Brogdon is a fair price.
1 first for taking Lonzo's dead contract is a fair price.

2 firsts in this deal is fair.

This is where I am at.  It is not just about what Brogdon is worth, LAC is reported to have offered Morris, Coffey, and a first, that is only half the deal.  You have to account for someone taking on Ball.

Think for example if the Celtics had a $20M TPE and the Bulls offered us Ball for nothing.  Would you take Ball?  Some will say yes so that you can use his salary in some other trade but I don't buy that.  The Celtics would never take Ball's contract, they are win now and can't afford to just waste that cap space on an unproductive player.  Some other teams might take Ball but only if at least a first round pick was attached.  Portland may be that kind of team that is willing to eat $40M for a half decent first round draft pick.

Now whether Brogdon fits for the Bulls or not is another question.  I think he does fit fine.  I think he would be fine opposite LaVine and DeRozan.  He could respell is name with a upper case letter in the middle, BrOgdon or something to go with LaVine and DeRozan.

[Moranis]

Why would anyone trade 2 1st round picks for Brogdon

Turning dead cap space into Brogdon has to be worth something. Portland isn’t going to take on $20 Million of dead space for nothing, I don’t think 1 pick is enough.

So let’s say it’s a first and a second. Who says no?

1 first for Brogdon is a fair price.
1 first for taking Lonzo's dead contract is a fair price.

2 firsts in this deal is fair.

This is where I am at.  It is not just about what Brogdon is worth, LAC is reported to have offered Morris, Coffey, and a first, that is only half the deal.  You have to account for someone taking on Ball.

Think for example if the Celtics had a $20M TPE and the Bulls offered us Ball for nothing.  Would you take Ball?  Some will say yes so that you can use his salary in some other trade but I don't buy that.  The Celtics would never take Ball's contract, they are win now and can't afford to just waste that cap space on an unproductive player.  Some other teams might take Ball but only if at least a first round pick was attached.  Portland may be that kind of team that is willing to eat $40M for a half decent first round draft pick.

Now whether Brogdon fits for the Bulls or not is another question.  I think he does fit fine.  I think he would be fine opposite LaVine and DeRozan.  He could respell is name with a upper case letter in the middle, BrOgdon or something to go with LaVine and DeRozan.

LA knew what the pick was and also wanted out of of Morris at that point (they cant trade a 1st for years either - only can do draft day which is finalized after draft).  I don't think LA would have made that offer including an unknown future pick.

I don't think Brogdon is going to yield a 1st round pick from anyone at this point.

[Vermont Green]

Why would anyone trade 2 1st round picks for Brogdon

Turning dead cap space into Brogdon has to be worth something. Portland isn’t going to take on $20 Million of dead space for nothing, I don’t think 1 pick is enough.

So let’s say it’s a first and a second. Who says no?

1 first for Brogdon is a fair price.
1 first for taking Lonzo's dead contract is a fair price.

2 firsts in this deal is fair.

This is where I am at.  It is not just about what Brogdon is worth, LAC is reported to have offered Morris, Coffey, and a first, that is only half the deal.  You have to account for someone taking on Ball.

Think for example if the Celtics had a $20M TPE and the Bulls offered us Ball for nothing.  Would you take Ball?  Some will say yes so that you can use his salary in some other trade but I don't buy that.  The Celtics would never take Ball's contract, they are win now and can't afford to just waste that cap space on an unproductive player.  Some other teams might take Ball but only if at least a first round pick was attached.  Portland may be that kind of team that is willing to eat $40M for a half decent first round draft pick.

Now whether Brogdon fits for the Bulls or not is another question.  I think he does fit fine.  I think he would be fine opposite LaVine and DeRozan.  He could respell is name with a upper case letter in the middle, BrOgdon or something to go with LaVine and DeRozan.

LA knew what the pick was and also wanted out of point (they cant trade a 1st for years either - only can do draft day which is finalized after draft).  I don't think LA would have made that offer including an unknown future pick.

I don't think Brogdon is going to yield a 1st round pick at this point.

Why?  What do you think has changed since June?  At that point, there were questions about his health.  Now he is on the court and playing well (by all reports).  Why would his value have gone down?

Smart got 2 firsts and a useful player (that is what MEM gave up).  Holiday got 2 firsts and two useful players (probably a bit over market but that was the deal).  I see Brogdon as a great get for a contending team with the right need.  Maybe that isn't CHI, I don't know, but I think there are teams who if they got Brogdon for a late'ish first (which is what you expect the pick from a contending team to be) that they would feel they won the trade and the team would be clearly better for the trade.

[kraidstar]

In a vacuum Brogdon is easily worth a late 1st.

The problem is that, aside from Miami, the contending teams lack either the picks or the matching contracts to acquire him.

Lowry + a first makes a lot of sense, but the Blazers and Heat probably aren't on the best of terms right now.

I'm guessing Portland keeps Brogdon for now and showcases him for the trade deadline. Maybe an unexpected up-and-coming team will want to make a splash. Or maybe a desperate contender empties out the remnants of the cupboard in a last-ditch effort for a title. By then teams will be also able to trade their recently signed free agents, which will make salary matching easier.

[kraidstar]

If Chicago was smart - which they are not (i pegged them as the dark horse 'Most Hopeless Team' a few tears back), they would gut this team and rebuild.

Dumping Ball for a decent player will be pricey. Remember that it cost Boston the 16th pick in the draft to swap useless Kemba for an old, overpaid Horford.

[Donoghus]

If Chicago was smart - which they are not (i pegged them as the dark horse 'Most Hopeless Team' a few tears back), they would gut this team and rebuild.

Dumping Ball for a decent player will be pricey. Remember that it cost Boston the 16th pick in the draft to swap useless Kemba for an old, overpaid Horford.

Yeah,  I just don't see Chicago doing this.  They're gonna need assets down the road.  Also, they're still crawling out of the Vucevic trade so I think there's some real hesitation in that organization of sending out first rounders again.

[Moranis]

Why would anyone trade 2 1st round picks for Brogdon

Turning dead cap space into Brogdon has to be worth something. Portland isn’t going to take on $20 Million of dead space for nothing, I don’t think 1 pick is enough.

So let’s say it’s a first and a second. Who says no?

1 first for Brogdon is a fair price.
1 first for taking Lonzo's dead contract is a fair price.

2 firsts in this deal is fair.

This is where I am at.  It is not just about what Brogdon is worth, LAC is reported to have offered Morris, Coffey, and a first, that is only half the deal.  You have to account for someone taking on Ball.

Think for example if the Celtics had a $20M TPE and the Bulls offered us Ball for nothing.  Would you take Ball?  Some will say yes so that you can use his salary in some other trade but I don't buy that.  The Celtics would never take Ball's contract, they are win now and can't afford to just waste that cap space on an unproductive player.  Some other teams might take Ball but only if at least a first round pick was attached.  Portland may be that kind of team that is willing to eat $40M for a half decent first round draft pick.

Now whether Brogdon fits for the Bulls or not is another question.  I think he does fit fine.  I think he would be fine opposite LaVine and DeRozan.  He could respell is name with a upper case letter in the middle, BrOgdon or something to go with LaVine and DeRozan.

LA knew what the pick was and also wanted out of point (they cant trade a 1st for years either - only can do draft day which is finalized after draft).  I don't think LA would have made that offer including an unknown future pick.

I don't think Brogdon is going to yield a 1st round pick at this point.

Why?  What do you think has changed since June?  At that point, there were questions about his health.  Now he is on the court and playing well (by all reports).  Why would his value have gone down?

Smart got 2 firsts and a useful player (that is what MEM gave up).  Holiday got 2 firsts and two useful players (probably a bit over market but that was the deal).  I see Brogdon as a great get for a contending team with the right need.  Maybe that isn't CHI, I don't know, but I think there are teams who if they got Brogdon for a late'ish first (which is what you expect the pick from a contending team to be) that they would feel they won the trade and the team would be clearly better for the trade.

He makes a lot of money so matching salaries is more difficult and most of the teams that in theory can use him can't trade a 1st round pick for several years. You don't take that risk on a player like Brogdon.  And over the summer the Clippers were the only team even rumored to be interested in Brogdon and they were dumping Morris and Coffey and trading the 30th pick.  It isn't like they were giving up a whole lot for him. 

Find a trade for Brogdon with a team giving up a 1st.  I suspect you won't find any that would actually get done. I'm sure the Clippers would still trade Morris and Coffey for him, but I think there is almost no way they trade a 2028 1st (or whenever they can trade one) as part of the trade.

Maybe next summer around the draft a team might be more inclined, but that is a long way off.