Did we underrate Al Horford

[Moranis]

The above is correct:  if Al plays out the year, he receives $26.5 million, period.  The $14.5 million is the least he can make, it cut.

Incidentally, the best thing to do may be to waive him, stretch him, and re-sign him to a new contract that lets him retire in Boston.

A player that is bought out cannot resign or be claimed by the team that bought him out until one year or after the end of the bought out contract, whichever comes first.

If a player is bought out, he cannot resign with the same team.  I do not recall that there was ever a case where a team waived a player and then resigned them to a lesser contract.  It just doesn't seem like this would be allowable.

I suppose that Horford and the Celtics could renegotiate the contract but usually in those cases, any remaining years on the contract stay as is, meaning that he would get the $26.5M but added years at significantly less.  So say it is $26.5M, $5M, $5M so a total of $36.5M over 3 years but with a big upfront payment.  This is good for Al as he doesn't need to go find another contract and he can stay in Boston.  Maybe good for Boston, tough that first year but then good.  He would have to get 3 years and $22M to add to his $14.5M "buy out" to beat this on the market.

I have a hunch that they would not be able to waive him, stretch him, and resign him.  I can't find the specific rule but this just seems too convoluted as a way to get around paying a player his contract.  Maybe some others know the rules better.

You can waive players and resign them, so long as you don’t buy them out.

And if you waive him, you'd just run the risk that someone else would pick him up at his current salary?  Is that correct?

Yes, but that is not a risk with Horford.

[Big333223]

Btw, there's no universe where the Celtics cut Horford next year to save some money. The reason the guarantee matters is that if they're looking to build salary for a trade, it's attractive to tell the other team, he can count as $26.5 mil for the trade but you can cut him and only have to pay $14 mil.

If I understand the situation right. 

[Celtics2021]

Btw, there's no universe where the Celtics cut Horford next year to save some money. The reason the guarantee matters is that if they're looking to build salary for a trade, it's attractive to tell the other team, he can count as $26.5 mil for the trade but you can cut him and only have to pay $14 mil.

If I understand the situation right.

Not right.  He only counts as his guarantee for the trade.

[jambr380]

Al's contract isn't bad if the Celtics don't go to the Finals this year. If the C's don't make it to the Finals, Al's guarantee is only $14.5 million next year, meaning his contract is only $41.5 million for 2 years. Not a great contract, but if Al gives this team 26 MPG with 11 PPG, 6 RPG and 3 APG with good shooting splits and solid defense, all very reasonable expectations, that's not a bad contract.

That is not what anybody is reporting, though. From my understanding, Al will get his full contract amount if we keep him and only $14.5M if he cut. If we do the latter, that is a 1yr, $41.5M contract, which is pretty brutal. I suppose there is a chance we eat the $14.5M and re-sign him for the minimum, but Al would REALLY have to love Boston to do that.

Excluding the scenario where we make the finals, you are right, this is either a 1 year $41.5M or a 2 year $53.5M contract.  It won't hit the cap exactly that way if we do buy him out after 1 season but that is the cash cost of the contract.  The only thing you can say about that is it isn't as bad as what Kemba had left on his contract where we were on the hook for $73M over two more seasons.

And as far as buying him out and then resigning him, I am not sure we can do that.  I may be wrong but I recall there was some rule to prevent that.

Kemba is better than Al though and we gave up a 1st round pick to do that.

Yeah, we basically either gave up Sengun or the two 1sts OKC got in return. Kemba was also bought out for ~$50M, so if we keep Al for one year, we only save like $8.5M, and if we keep Al for two years, we actually pay more than Kemba's buy-out. Yes, we get a year or two of service from Al, but this wasn't as much as a slam dunk as people are making it out to be.

Kemba is a legit 3rd scorer/star type when relatively healthy. I hate that we need to root against him just so we can feel like we didn't get ripped off. Kemba is such a great person.

[Goldstar88]

Al's contract isn't bad if the Celtics don't go to the Finals this year. If the C's don't make it to the Finals, Al's guarantee is only $14.5 million next year, meaning his contract is only $41.5 million for 2 years. Not a great contract, but if Al gives this team 26 MPG with 11 PPG, 6 RPG and 3 APG with good shooting splits and solid defense, all very reasonable expectations, that's not a bad contract.

That is not what anybody is reporting, though. From my understanding, Al will get his full contract amount if we keep him and only $14.5M if he cut. If we do the latter, that is a 1yr, $41.5M contract, which is pretty brutal. I suppose there is a chance we eat the $14.5M and re-sign him for the minimum, but Al would REALLY have to love Boston to do that.

Excluding the scenario where we make the finals, you are right, this is either a 1 year $41.5M or a 2 year $53.5M contract.  It won't hit the cap exactly that way if we do buy him out after 1 season but that is the cash cost of the contract.  The only thing you can say about that is it isn't as bad as what Kemba had left on his contract where we were on the hook for $73M over two more seasons.

And as far as buying him out and then resigning him, I am not sure we can do that.  I may be wrong but I recall there was some rule to prevent that.

Kemba is better than Al though and we gave up a 1st round pick to do that.

Yeah, we basically either gave up Sengun or the two 1sts OKC got in return. Kemba was also bought out for ~$50M, so if we keep Al for one year, we only save like $8.5M, and if we keep Al for two years, we actually pay more than Kemba's buy-out. Yes, we get a year or two of service from Al, but this wasn't as much as a slam dunk as people are making it out to be.

Kemba is a legit 3rd scorer/star type when relatively healthy. I hate that we need to root against him just so we can feel like we didn't get ripped off. Kemba is such a great person.

If this were true, he would still be here. He was relatively healthy last year and it still didn’t work. He was a negative asset and we are lucky that OKC was willing to take him and the only way that was going to happen was by giving up the 1st round pick. OKC tried to move him and there were literally no takers. Thus the buyout. Then he goes to the Knicks for $9m a year which is what his worth is at this stage of his career. Brad was doing damage control and he’s done a great job cleaning up the roster.

[Moranis]

Al's contract isn't bad if the Celtics don't go to the Finals this year. If the C's don't make it to the Finals, Al's guarantee is only $14.5 million next year, meaning his contract is only $41.5 million for 2 years. Not a great contract, but if Al gives this team 26 MPG with 11 PPG, 6 RPG and 3 APG with good shooting splits and solid defense, all very reasonable expectations, that's not a bad contract.

That is not what anybody is reporting, though. From my understanding, Al will get his full contract amount if we keep him and only $14.5M if he cut. If we do the latter, that is a 1yr, $41.5M contract, which is pretty brutal. I suppose there is a chance we eat the $14.5M and re-sign him for the minimum, but Al would REALLY have to love Boston to do that.

Excluding the scenario where we make the finals, you are right, this is either a 1 year $41.5M or a 2 year $53.5M contract.  It won't hit the cap exactly that way if we do buy him out after 1 season but that is the cash cost of the contract.  The only thing you can say about that is it isn't as bad as what Kemba had left on his contract where we were on the hook for $73M over two more seasons.

And as far as buying him out and then resigning him, I am not sure we can do that.  I may be wrong but I recall there was some rule to prevent that.

Kemba is better than Al though and we gave up a 1st round pick to do that.

Yeah, we basically either gave up Sengun or the two 1sts OKC got in return. Kemba was also bought out for ~$50M, so if we keep Al for one year, we only save like $8.5M, and if we keep Al for two years, we actually pay more than Kemba's buy-out. Yes, we get a year or two of service from Al, but this wasn't as much as a slam dunk as people are making it out to be.

Kemba is a legit 3rd scorer/star type when relatively healthy. I hate that we need to root against him just so we can feel like we didn't get ripped off. Kemba is such a great person.

If this were true, he would still be here. He was relatively healthy last year and it still didn’t work. He was a negative asset and we are lucky that OKC was willing to take him and the only way that was going to happen was by giving up the 1st round pick. OKC tried to move him and there were literally no takers. Thus the buyout. Then he goes to the Knicks for $9m a year which is what his worth is at this stage of his career. Brad was doing damage control and he’s done a great job cleaning up the roster.

Boston was 2.6 points per 100 possessions with Kemba playing then when Kemba was on the bench last year.  Of the regular rotation that ranked him 3rd behind Tatum and Smart.  In other words, Boston was much better with Kemba than without Kemba last year.  I didn't like signing Kemba because I thought the team had better options (mostly for age, fit, and contract size), but Kemba didn't disappoint nearly as much as this board has made it seem of late.  His health is an issue, but his actual play was just fine.

[Big333223]

Btw, there's no universe where the Celtics cut Horford next year to save some money. The reason the guarantee matters is that if they're looking to build salary for a trade, it's attractive to tell the other team, he can count as $26.5 mil for the trade but you can cut him and only have to pay $14 mil.

If I understand the situation right.

Not right.  He only counts as his guarantee for the trade.

Ah. I didn't know that.

I still think there's no way the Celtics cut him next year just to save some money.

[Celtics2021]

Btw, there's no universe where the Celtics cut Horford next year to save some money. The reason the guarantee matters is that if they're looking to build salary for a trade, it's attractive to tell the other team, he can count as $26.5 mil for the trade but you can cut him and only have to pay $14 mil.

If I understand the situation right.

Not right.  He only counts as his guarantee for the trade.

Ah. I didn't know that.

I still think there's no way the Celtics cut him next year just to save some money.

I’m operating under the assumption his deal is fully guaranteed anyway.

[GreenlyGreeny]

Here’s the deal: Big Al was one of the first big free agents to ever come to Boston. We made it far with him most every season we had him. He earned this contract and we should have paid him to begin with. We’re now making things right and paying him these next two years. We’re not going to cut him unless it’s to renegotiate a long-term deal better for us and him, or a trade comes up that we just cannot pass on (very unlikely).

These are not basketball cards being acquired/traded. Brad realizes that, but Danny did not. Time to change the mindset. Al is basically a future HOFer and is our gentler version of Roy Kent at this stage. Frankly, when his playing career is over I will not be the least bit surprised if he becoems an assistant coach for us.

[nickagneta]

Here’s the deal: Big Al was one of the first big free agents to ever come to Boston. We made it far with him most every season we had him. He earned this contract and we should have paid him to begin with. We’re now making things right and paying him these next two years. We’re not going to cut him unless it’s to renegotiate a long-term deal better for us and him, or a trade comes up that we just cannot pass on (very unlikely).

These are not basketball cards being acquired/traded. Brad realizes that, but Danny did not. Time to change the mindset. Al is basically a future HOFer and is our gentler version of Roy Kent at this stage. Frankly, when his playing career is over I will not be the least bit surprised if he becoems an assistant coach for us.

Al should not be a Hall of Famer. Great career. Some nice numbers. But outside of HOF worthiness.

[timpiker]

Ask me after 60 games

[Big333223]

Here’s the deal: Big Al was one of the first big free agents to ever come to Boston. We made it far with him most every season we had him. He earned this contract and we should have paid him to begin with. We’re now making things right and paying him these next two years. We’re not going to cut him unless it’s to renegotiate a long-term deal better for us and him, or a trade comes up that we just cannot pass on (very unlikely).

These are not basketball cards being acquired/traded. Brad realizes that, but Danny did not. Time to change the mindset. Al is basically a future HOFer and is our gentler version of Roy Kent at this stage. Frankly, when his playing career is over I will not be the least bit surprised if he becoems an assistant coach for us.

Al should not be a Hall of Famer. Great career. Some nice numbers. But outside of HOF worthiness.

Yeah. 5 all star teams, only 1 all nba team (plus 1 all defense), never made a finals, never won a significant award... hard to make a HoF case.

[Neurotic Guy]

Here’s the deal: Big Al was one of the first big free agents to ever come to Boston. We made it far with him most every season we had him. He earned this contract and we should have paid him to begin with. We’re now making things right and paying him these next two years. We’re not going to cut him unless it’s to renegotiate a long-term deal better for us and him, or a trade comes up that we just cannot pass on (very unlikely).

These are not basketball cards being acquired/traded. Brad realizes that, but Danny did not. Time to change the mindset. Al is basically a future HOFer and is our gentler version of Roy Kent at this stage. Frankly, when his playing career is over I will not be the least bit surprised if he becoems an assistant coach for us.

Al should not be a Hall of Famer. Great career. Some nice numbers. But outside of HOF worthiness.

Yeah. 5 all star teams, only 1 all nba team (plus 1 all defense), never made a finals, never won a significant award... hard to make a HoF case.

But if he’d played here through his prime he’d be a top 15 Celtic.

[GreenlyGreeny]

If Kukoc is a HOFer, so is Al for what he’s done for basketball in the Caribbean.

[Vermont Green]

Yeah, we basically either gave up Sengun or the two 1sts OKC got in return. Kemba was also bought out for ~$50M, so if we keep Al for one year, we only save like $8.5M, and if we keep Al for two years, we actually pay more than Kemba's buy-out. Yes, we get a year or two of service from Al, but this wasn't as much as a slam dunk as people are making it out to be.

Kemba is a legit 3rd scorer/star type when relatively healthy. I hate that we need to root against him just so we can feel like we didn't get ripped off. Kemba is such a great person.

You are leaving out that we got Moses Brown who we then traded for Josh Richardson.  So if you want to do proper accounting, we got Al Horford and Josh Richardson for Kemba and the 1st (that became two firsts for OKC).  Plus there was some second round pick swaps that will probably end up favoring Boston, but it is second round picks so no big deal.

When we had Moses Brown, I was excited about that.  People seemed to treat him as a worthless throw in and only focused on the pick we gave up.  That worthless throw in then became Josh Richardson and people still seem to discount that.  Moses Brown was value and Josh Richardson is value.  That is what we got for the first round pick.

You can debate Kemba vs. Horford, that is fair, but we did not give up a first just to dump Kemba.  That debate would be the first vs. Josh Richardson.  I am pretty happy with getting Josh Richardson for the 16th Pick.