Ime: "We’re not going to be a team that cries the whole time [about ref calls]"

[ozgod]

Crying about fouls is a double edged sword. Do it too much and it looses its effectiveness. Never do it, and you get walked over by bad refs. Coaches need more challenges.

So far I like this coach. Some of these Celtics must be thinking, "Be careful what you wish for, you just may get it."

It's like diving to win a penalty in soccer...if you are seen as a straight up guy, and you pick your moment to dive in the box, probably the referee will give you a penalty. If you dive all the time, when you do actually get legit fouled and fall over they might not give you time of day. Unfortunately JT tends to fall into the latter category - he moans all the time, about all contact. So the refs probably automatically disregard him.

[ozgod]

working the ref is an art, crying to the refs is totally different. Star players can work the refs, it’s part of the game and the entertainment, Scrubs whining - not so much. The problem with Cs under Stevens is he did not work the refs effectively so his players were run over and resorted to whining. The other problem was soft play. Looks like Ime noticed that, and is intent on changing that aspect of team culture.

Totally agree with this - TP. Like my soccer analogy before, if you pick your moments, and do it properly, you can absolutely influence how a ref makes future calls. The best ones at it are the ones where the ref doesn't even realize it's being done. And it doesn't have to be done just on court - you can talk to the league office, leak to the media that you are sending a letter to the NBA Referee Association about certain calls, all things to put pressure. Unfortunately for us we don't have anyone in that category - most of our complaints come across as whining on the spur of the moment to get a call changed that won't be changed unless you burn a review AND that end up p---ing the referees off, AND that distract them from moving on to the next play. That's the point of Ime's mandate IMO - he wants them to move on to the next play and stop dwelling on the injustices of the world that were done to them (the "we wuz robbed" syndrome).

[Erik]

players complain because it works.  When it stops working, players will stop complaining.

That's just not true. It is not a fully rational response.

Players complain because of the intense competitive nature of the situation. I've seen thousands of complaints over the years at various levels, and most of them don't work, I can assure you.

They work for future calls. They point the ref to things they might not have seen.  They don't get the call overturned, but complaining absolutely works.  That is why they do it.

Yep it does. There’s a right way to do it, though. Like most things in life if you’re obnoxious about a suggestion, people turn their ears off. If you politely present it as a “watch out for when he does this” It can be a very effective strategy. Of course that’s hard when you’re tired, caught up in the competition, and feel like things are unjust. People also have a hard time judging their own actions in real time because there is a disconnect in what you think you’ve done and reality as there are so many thoughts in that moment and you rely a lot on muscle memory. Which is why I usually trust the calls because the refs have way less on their minds and they’re generally only going to miss a small %. I’ve been in plenty of on court situations where my immediate reaction was it was a bullEdited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. call but then when I talked to the ref I realized I didn’t even fully understand exactly where I was standing.

It’s a great idea but in reality difficult to turn off.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I hate the whining. Tatum moans and groans after just about every offensive play he's involved in, and it's annoying. And I hate that refs allow themselves to get worked by coaches and players, especially guys like Phil Jackson, LeBron, and Duh-wayne Wade. I know this will never happen, but the refs should start T-ing these guys up with every loud complaint and see how these guys like watching from the bench.

[Celtics4ever]

I hate the whining. Tatum moans and groans after just about every offensive play he's involved in, and it's annoying. And I hate that refs allow themselves to get worked by coaches and players, especially guys like Phil Jackson, LeBron, and Duh-wayne Wade. I know this will never happen, but the refs should start T-ing these guys up with every loud complaint and see how these guys like watching from the bench.

In all honesty, respect is earned.   They miss calls all the time and favor star players.    Out of the big three pro sports, NBA refs are the worst by far.  Sometimes the way they ref looks like WWE.

Make the right calls, no one wants star calls save the league and the stars themselves.   Fans want to see a game equally ref'ed.    Don't get a team in the hole and make it up in the end like they always do.

That being said, I dislike whining as well.    But NBA refs make quite few mistakes compared to the other sports.

[td450]

working the ref is an art, crying to the refs is totally different. Star players can work the refs, it’s part of the game and the entertainment, Scrubs whining - not so much. The problem with Cs under Stevens is he did not work the refs effectively so his players were run over and resorted to whining. The other problem was soft play. Looks like Ime noticed that, and is intent on changing that aspect of team culture.

Let's be clear.

I agree that refs are people, that they can make mistakes, and that they want to be viewed as fair. If you pick your spots and you do it right, you can sense moments when refs are vulnerable and influence their behavior. Being a major star also adds significant weight to a complaint. So, if all we are saying is that appealing to the refs can work episodically, and that there are people in the league that have the ability to sense those opportunities, then yes, I agree.

Where I disagree is that this type of insightful influencing of the refs represents the majority of the whining in the NBA, or that most players have the ability to regulate their behavior accurately based on the results. That is not true.

[celts55]

It kind of reminds me of my mom. She very rarely cursed, so when she did, boy you knew you were wrong.
Tatum for example, cries after almost every play. Many times replay show he was wrong. If I was the ref, I would tune him out. If he only complained once in a while, I might actually listen to him. Ray Allen is a good example. He very rarely complained, so when he did, everyone assumed there was a legitimate reason.
I guess I’m saying, less is more

[dannyboy35]

 I hate that sone players can complain more than others. Certain players get to foul consistently and not get called for it as well because they’ve been grandfathered in with a rugged reputation. Guys like Pj, Marcus Morris etc. GOOD players but they’re also allowed to clutch snd grab more.

[gouki88]

I think reforming the coaches challenge (you don't lose it if you're successful, you get one each half + overtime) would go a long way to helping this

[Kuberski33]

This team has some of the biggest whiners and complainers in the league when it comes to the refs. Even the limited talent guys like Grant Williams whine. However I blame Brad. The guy never worked the refs or stood up for his players when calls would go against them so it's no surprise the players would speak up and kvetch about calls.  Curious to see how Udoka handles this. My guess is that as a former player in the league, he'll stick up for his guys when he has to.

[tenn_smoothie]

Go back and watch one of the very intense playoff games from the 80's, Celts vs Sixers or Celts vs Lakers.

Players hardly say a word to the officials and these are Conference Finals and NBA Finals with hated rivals. It's kinda strange to watch.  Those 70's and 80's legends like Mendy Rudolph, Earl Strom, Jake O'Donnell, Darrel Garretson, Hugh Evans, on and on usually didn't look like former athletes, but they had a feel for the game that the current group of Stepford officials do not. I'm sure there are exchanges going on at times, but it is rarely demonstrative. I remember reading a story about Bird and Earl Strom going back and forth at each other with Strom matching Larry profanity for profanity. But it was brief and neither made a big show of it. 

The NBA of the 60's, 70's, & 80's - when men played the game.

[ozgod]

Ime brought up the fact that tonight's preseason loss to Miami was in large part due to the fact that the players got too preoccupied and upset about perceived non-calls from the referee and Miami capitalized as a result.

MIAMI — Midway through the third quarter of the Celtics’ 121-100 preseason loss against the Heat on Friday, Boston forward Grant Williams was called for an illegal screen and he was not happy about it. He spun around and waved his arms in disbelief, but the officials did not wait for him to protest. They handed the ball to the Heat, and the game rolled on.

Seconds later Bam Adebayo, who was being guarded by Williams, raced up court and threw down a two-handed dunk before Williams could catch up. Celtics coach Ime Udoka said earlier in training camp that he does not want these Celtics to get caught up in complaining to officials. In this case, he instantly called timeout and took Williams out of the game.

“The main thing, I’m telling him to get back and stop worrying about the referee,” Udoka said. “Your guy is bringing it right behind you.”

Udoka said the fact that Williams picked up his fourth foul factored into his decision to send him to the bench, but he acknowledged that the whining was the primary reason. And Williams was not alone. Udoka said Miami’s second-quarter run was the result of the Celtics lack of focus defensively when they were preoccupied with the officiating.

“Just a learning moment,” he said. “You can’t get caught up in that. You have to play through it, just like they did. They played with pace. When we cried about calls, they were running out and got too many easy looks. So something like I said we talked about early in camp. It’s something I’m going to keep hammering away on until we get where we want to be.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/10/15/sports/with-handful-regulars-sidelined-celtics-close-preseason-with-loss-heat/

[MaxAMillion]

This guy is full of it. He loves to hear himself talk. Players will tune out a guy who won’t stop talking to the press. Go look at the Hawks. They were in 11th place at one point last year under a coach they couldn’t stand. They replace him with a guy who keeps quiet and the team takes off.

Brad had a lot of success in Boston. People underestimate how Brad’s style allowed players to flourish. I don’t think the same thing will happen under Udoka.

[footey]

working the ref is an art, crying to the refs is totally different. Star players can work the refs, it’s part of the game and the entertainment, Scrubs whining - not so much. The problem with Cs under Stevens is he did not work the refs effectively so his players were run over and resorted to whining. The other problem was soft play. Looks like Ime noticed that, and is intent on changing that aspect of team culture.

So when a star does it it is art but someone who is not a star (you call a scrub) does it it is whining.

That there is the problem. Fans conceding that a star has greater right to talk to a ref than a nonstar. That’s messed up.

[SHAQATTACK]

Go back and watch one of the very intense playoff games from the 80's, Celts vs Sixers or Celts vs Lakers.

Players hardly say a word to the officials and these are Conference Finals and NBA Finals with hated rivals. It's kinda strange to watch.  Those 70's and 80's legends like Mendy Rudolph, Earl Strom, Jake O'Donnell, Darrel Garretson, Hugh Evans, on and on usually didn't look like former athletes, but they had a feel for the game that the current group of Stepford officials do not. I'm sure there are exchanges going on at times, but it is rarely demonstrative. I remember reading a story about Bird and Earl Strom going back and forth at each other with Strom matching Larry profanity for profanity. But it was brief and neither made a big show of it. 

The NBA of the 60's, 70's, & 80's - when men played the game.

It’s all about the new better world we live in …the world or Kyrie and Lebron