Brady or Belichick

[RPGenerate]

I think it’s laughable that some think that Brady wouldn’t be the competitor that he is if Bill wasn’t his coach.That’s like saying Jordan wouldn’t have been a great competitor without Phil. Maybe Tom doesn’t win 6 rings without Bill, but I believe he would have gotten 5 on another team with a good coach like an Andy Reid or a Sean Peyton. Put Brady on the Saints, Chiefs, Rams, Steelers, Bills, 49ers this year and that team immediately becomes the favorite to win the SB. Very first year on Tampa, with no training camp, no preseason games and he wins it all.

I think Bill is the greatest defensive coach of all time, but there Are two sides of the field. He’s done a very good job drafting defensive players, but overall has been bad in terms of drafting offensive players. McDaniels has been the OC for all but one SB win and I feel like people discount Josh’s role in running the offense over the years. I believe Brady had a far larger role in the Patriots success and feel as though Belichick’s legacy will be diminished if he is unable to win 1 Super Bowl without having the greatest quarterback of all time on his team.

That's a terrible analogy. Jordan was a top 3 pick and runaway rookie of the year, all star in his first season. Jordan was always going to be an all-time great no matter what. Brady's path was completely different.

I think what you say about Belichick being a defensive coach is a good point. Maybe Belichick coaching some great defenses gave Brady opportunities to learn on the biggest stages he might not have had under other coaches. Maybe because Belichick was more defensive minded he let Brady have the reigns on offense in ways another coach wouldn't have allowed.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Brady, he's the GOAT. That discussion is put to bed. My question (and it is a question, not a statement) is about the conditions that got him to where he is now. He was never a forgone conclusion like a Jordan or a Peyton Manning. It's completely fair to ask what role Bill had in shaping Brady.

I don't think this part is remotely provable. Brady became Brady because of he was a psycho competitor with one of the best minds in football history.

[Big333223]

I think it’s laughable that some think that Brady wouldn’t be the competitor that he is if Bill wasn’t his coach.That’s like saying Jordan wouldn’t have been a great competitor without Phil. Maybe Tom doesn’t win 6 rings without Bill, but I believe he would have gotten 5 on another team with a good coach like an Andy Reid or a Sean Peyton. Put Brady on the Saints, Chiefs, Rams, Steelers, Bills, 49ers this year and that team immediately becomes the favorite to win the SB. Very first year on Tampa, with no training camp, no preseason games and he wins it all.

I think Bill is the greatest defensive coach of all time, but there Are two sides of the field. He’s done a very good job drafting defensive players, but overall has been bad in terms of drafting offensive players. McDaniels has been the OC for all but one SB win and I feel like people discount Josh’s role in running the offense over the years. I believe Brady had a far larger role in the Patriots success and feel as though Belichick’s legacy will be diminished if he is unable to win 1 Super Bowl without having the greatest quarterback of all time on his team.

That's a terrible analogy. Jordan was a top 3 pick and runaway rookie of the year, all star in his first season. Jordan was always going to be an all-time great no matter what. Brady's path was completely different.

I think what you say about Belichick being a defensive coach is a good point. Maybe Belichick coaching some great defenses gave Brady opportunities to learn on the biggest stages he might not have had under other coaches. Maybe because Belichick was more defensive minded he let Brady have the reigns on offense in ways another coach wouldn't have allowed.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Brady, he's the GOAT. That discussion is put to bed. My question (and it is a question, not a statement) is about the conditions that got him to where he is now. He was never a forgone conclusion like a Jordan or a Peyton Manning. It's completely fair to ask what role Bill had in shaping Brady.

I’m not comparing Brady’s career or journey to Jordan’s. I’m just talking about them as fierce competitors. You can’t teach competitiveness. You can’t coach it. It’s either part of your DNA or it’s not. Whether Phil, Pat, or Pop coached Jordan, he would still have been a fierce competitor. Just like Brady would have been if his coach was Payton, Reid, Parcells.

There are lots of fierce competitors who don't have success at the highest levels. Competitiveness is only one element.

[Big333223]

I think it’s laughable that some think that Brady wouldn’t be the competitor that he is if Bill wasn’t his coach.That’s like saying Jordan wouldn’t have been a great competitor without Phil. Maybe Tom doesn’t win 6 rings without Bill, but I believe he would have gotten 5 on another team with a good coach like an Andy Reid or a Sean Peyton. Put Brady on the Saints, Chiefs, Rams, Steelers, Bills, 49ers this year and that team immediately becomes the favorite to win the SB. Very first year on Tampa, with no training camp, no preseason games and he wins it all.

I think Bill is the greatest defensive coach of all time, but there Are two sides of the field. He’s done a very good job drafting defensive players, but overall has been bad in terms of drafting offensive players. McDaniels has been the OC for all but one SB win and I feel like people discount Josh’s role in running the offense over the years. I believe Brady had a far larger role in the Patriots success and feel as though Belichick’s legacy will be diminished if he is unable to win 1 Super Bowl without having the greatest quarterback of all time on his team.

That's a terrible analogy. Jordan was a top 3 pick and runaway rookie of the year, all star in his first season. Jordan was always going to be an all-time great no matter what. Brady's path was completely different.

I think what you say about Belichick being a defensive coach is a good point. Maybe Belichick coaching some great defenses gave Brady opportunities to learn on the biggest stages he might not have had under other coaches. Maybe because Belichick was more defensive minded he let Brady have the reigns on offense in ways another coach wouldn't have allowed.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Brady, he's the GOAT. That discussion is put to bed. My question (and it is a question, not a statement) is about the conditions that got him to where he is now. He was never a forgone conclusion like a Jordan or a Peyton Manning. It's completely fair to ask what role Bill had in shaping Brady.

I don't think this part is remotely provable. Brady became Brady because of he was a psycho competitor with one of the best minds in football history.

I agree with that. But a mind isn't just dropped into a head fully formed. How much did Brady benefit from Belichick's football mind? Or from the experience of having so much success so early?

It's not taking anything away from Brady to acknowledge that the greats, and even The GOAT, are to some degree shaped by their surroundings and their coaches.

[Goldstar88]

I think it’s laughable that some think that Brady wouldn’t be the competitor that he is if Bill wasn’t his coach.That’s like saying Jordan wouldn’t have been a great competitor without Phil. Maybe Tom doesn’t win 6 rings without Bill, but I believe he would have gotten 5 on another team with a good coach like an Andy Reid or a Sean Peyton. Put Brady on the Saints, Chiefs, Rams, Steelers, Bills, 49ers this year and that team immediately becomes the favorite to win the SB. Very first year on Tampa, with no training camp, no preseason games and he wins it all.

I think Bill is the greatest defensive coach of all time, but there Are two sides of the field. He’s done a very good job drafting defensive players, but overall has been bad in terms of drafting offensive players. McDaniels has been the OC for all but one SB win and I feel like people discount Josh’s role in running the offense over the years. I believe Brady had a far larger role in the Patriots success and feel as though Belichick’s legacy will be diminished if he is unable to win 1 Super Bowl without having the greatest quarterback of all time on his team.

That's a terrible analogy. Jordan was a top 3 pick and runaway rookie of the year, all star in his first season. Jordan was always going to be an all-time great no matter what. Brady's path was completely different.

I think what you say about Belichick being a defensive coach is a good point. Maybe Belichick coaching some great defenses gave Brady opportunities to learn on the biggest stages he might not have had under other coaches. Maybe because Belichick was more defensive minded he let Brady have the reigns on offense in ways another coach wouldn't have allowed.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Brady, he's the GOAT. That discussion is put to bed. My question (and it is a question, not a statement) is about the conditions that got him to where he is now. He was never a forgone conclusion like a Jordan or a Peyton Manning. It's completely fair to ask what role Bill had in shaping Brady.

I’m not comparing Brady’s career or journey to Jordan’s. I’m just talking about them as fierce competitors. You can’t teach competitiveness. You can’t coach it. It’s either part of your DNA or it’s not. Whether Phil, Pat, or Pop coached Jordan, he would still have been a fierce competitor. Just like Brady would have been if his coach was Payton, Reid, Parcells.

There are lots of fierce competitors who don't have success at the highest levels. Competitiveness is only one element.

It’s one of the main ingredients of what makes a great player. Pretty important element, no?

[jbpats]

I think last season gave us our answer

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Brady all day. Bill even admits after winning Super Bowls that the players play the game.

If we have to make a choice, I'm going with Tom Brady. I still think Belichick is a great coach, but I don't see him winning a Super Bowl this year with Mac. If he does, I think we can re-open this discussion.

[nickagneta]

Brady all day. Bill even admits after winning Super Bowls that the players play the game.

If we have to make a choice, I'm going with Tom Brady. I still think Belichick is a great coach, but I don't see him winning a Super Bowl this year with Mac. If he does, I think we can re-open this discussion.

What if Bill goes on to win 2-3 more Super Bowls with Mac over the next say 5-7 years? Does that change things?

As I said earlier, it's a chicken and egg conundrum. Both are the best ever at what they do and neither would have had the success over the last 20 years without the other.

[Redz]

I really think it's impossible to separate either of them.  I know you can argue Brady won in Tampa and Belichik hasn't done won a SB without Brady, but neither one reaches their legendary status without the other.  I don't think Brady becomes the QB he is without the opportunity he had with the Pats those first few years. 

It's ok to not choose.  It really is.

[Goldstar88]

Brady all day. Bill even admits after winning Super Bowls that the players play the game.

If we have to make a choice, I'm going with Tom Brady. I still think Belichick is a great coach, but I don't see him winning a Super Bowl this year with Mac. If he does, I think we can re-open this discussion.

What if Bill goes on to win 2-3 more Super Bowls with Mac over the next say 5-7 years? Does that change things?

As I said earlier, it's a chicken and egg conundrum. Both are the best ever at what they do and neither would have had the success over the last 20 years without the other.

Nick, do you think Bill win A championship with Mac before he retires? Feel like at best he has a 50/50 shot to win one over the next 5-7 years. I would probably bet against it if I had to. First year without Brady and the Pats were a disaster. This year they Look like a 10-7 team, maybe?

Brady went to Tampa with no training camp, no preseason games and won a Super Bowl his first year. He would have had success On a team with a good(not great)coach and defense, IMO.

[nickagneta]

Brady all day. Bill even admits after winning Super Bowls that the players play the game.

If we have to make a choice, I'm going with Tom Brady. I still think Belichick is a great coach, but I don't see him winning a Super Bowl this year with Mac. If he does, I think we can re-open this discussion.

What if Bill goes on to win 2-3 more Super Bowls with Mac over the next say 5-7 years? Does that change things?

As I said earlier, it's a chicken and egg conundrum. Both are the best ever at what they do and neither would have had the success over the last 20 years without the other.

Nick, do you think Bill win A championship with Mac before he retires? Feel like at best he has a 50/50 shot to win one over the next 5-7 years. I would probably bet against it if I had to. First year without Brady and the Pats were a disaster. This year they Look like a 10-7 team, maybe?

Brady went to Tampa with no training camp, no preseason games and won a Super Bowl his first year. He would have had success On a team with a good(not great)coach and defense, IMO.

Lots of looking at things last year without context and with a bit of salesmanship type slant on the facts.

1. Bruce Arians is not just a great coach, he is a pretty amazing coach. He's won a SB as a head coach and twice as an assistant coach. He is a 2 time NFL Coach of the Year and yet, his best coaching job was last year, as he had to meld Brady's needs to be successful with his system and doing it all around Covid restrictions and protocols. This helped Brady get that title.

2. By year's end Arians had his defense playing at an elite level. It was a great defense. This helped Brady get that title.

3. That title wasn't all because of Tom and, quite honestly, there wasn't a better situation Tom could have stepped into because that team, especially offensive, was STACKED with stars and talent. So Brady could have gone elsewhere, but I don't remember any other team he was rumored to be looking at that would have resulted in Tom winning a title.

4. The Pats were able to spin off 3 titles in 5 years and maintain a dynasty because they used the NFL salary cap rules in such a way as to keep pushing off dead salary money until the following year. That bill came due last year. There was no money to refit the club and their best talent kept going elsewhere because NE couldn't pay them. Add that to losing more players to Covid opt outs than any other team and only being able to afford a dirt cheap Can Newton as a QB that came in last second, got Covid and showed his arm was shot and 7-9 looks like a good coaching job to me.

Tom is the greatest. But so is Belichick. It's okay to admit that they both wouldn't have been as great without the other.

[Goldstar88]

Brady all day. Bill even admits after winning Super Bowls that the players play the game.

If we have to make a choice, I'm going with Tom Brady. I still think Belichick is a great coach, but I don't see him winning a Super Bowl this year with Mac. If he does, I think we can re-open this discussion.

What if Bill goes on to win 2-3 more Super Bowls with Mac over the next say 5-7 years? Does that change things?

As I said earlier, it's a chicken and egg conundrum. Both are the best ever at what they do and neither would have had the success over the last 20 years without the other.

Nick, do you think Bill win A championship with Mac before he retires? Feel like at best he has a 50/50 shot to win one over the next 5-7 years. I would probably bet against it if I had to. First year without Brady and the Pats were a disaster. This year they Look like a 10-7 team, maybe?

Brady went to Tampa with no training camp, no preseason games and won a Super Bowl his first year. He would have had success On a team with a good(not great)coach and defense, IMO.

Lots of looking at things last year without context and with a bit of salesmanship type slant on the facts.

1. Bruce Arians is not just a great coach, he is a pretty amazing coach. He's won a SB as a head coach and twice as an assistant coach. He is a 2 time NFL Coach of the Year and yet, his best coaching job was last year, as he had to meld Brady's needs to be successful with his system and doing it all around Covid restrictions and protocols. This helped Brady get that title.

2. By year's end Arians had his defense playing at an elite level. It was a great defense. This helped Brady get that title.

3. That title wasn't all because of Tom and, quite honestly, there wasn't a better situation Tom could have stepped into because that team, especially offensive, was STACKED with stars and talent. So Brady could have gone elsewhere, but I don't remember any other team he was rumored to be looking at that would have resulted in Tom winning a title.

4. The Pats were able to spin off 3 titles in 5 years and maintain a dynasty because they used the NFL salary cap rules in such a way as to keep pushing off dead salary money until the following year. That bill came due last year. There was no money to refit the club and their best talent kept going elsewhere because NE couldn't pay them. Add that to losing more players to Covid opt outs than any other team and only being able to afford a dirt cheap Can Newton as a QB that came in last second, got Covid and showed his arm was shot and 7-9 looks like a good coaching job to me.

Tom is the greatest. But so is Belichick. It's okay to admit that they both wouldn't have been as great without the other.

I agree, both wouldn’t have been as successful without the other. Question is, can one win a SB without the other. Brady proved that he can. Do you think Bill will be able win at least one super bowl without Tom before he retires? If he is the greatest coach of all time he should be able to.

[nickagneta]

Brady all day. Bill even admits after winning Super Bowls that the players play the game.

If we have to make a choice, I'm going with Tom Brady. I still think Belichick is a great coach, but I don't see him winning a Super Bowl this year with Mac. If he does, I think we can re-open this discussion.

What if Bill goes on to win 2-3 more Super Bowls with Mac over the next say 5-7 years? Does that change things?

As I said earlier, it's a chicken and egg conundrum. Both are the best ever at what they do and neither would have had the success over the last 20 years without the other.

Nick, do you think Bill win A championship with Mac before he retires? Feel like at best he has a 50/50 shot to win one over the next 5-7 years. I would probably bet against it if I had to. First year without Brady and the Pats were a disaster. This year they Look like a 10-7 team, maybe?

Brady went to Tampa with no training camp, no preseason games and won a Super Bowl his first year. He would have had success On a team with a good(not great)coach and defense, IMO.

Lots of looking at things last year without context and with a bit of salesmanship type slant on the facts.

1. Bruce Arians is not just a great coach, he is a pretty amazing coach. He's won a SB as a head coach and twice as an assistant coach. He is a 2 time NFL Coach of the Year and yet, his best coaching job was last year, as he had to meld Brady's needs to be successful with his system and doing it all around Covid restrictions and protocols. This helped Brady get that title.

2. By year's end Arians had his defense playing at an elite level. It was a great defense. This helped Brady get that title.

3. That title wasn't all because of Tom and, quite honestly, there wasn't a better situation Tom could have stepped into because that team, especially offensive, was STACKED with stars and talent. So Brady could have gone elsewhere, but I don't remember any other team he was rumored to be looking at that would have resulted in Tom winning a title.

4. The Pats were able to spin off 3 titles in 5 years and maintain a dynasty because they used the NFL salary cap rules in such a way as to keep pushing off dead salary money until the following year. That bill came due last year. There was no money to refit the club and their best talent kept going elsewhere because NE couldn't pay them. Add that to losing more players to Covid opt outs than any other team and only being able to afford a dirt cheap Can Newton as a QB that came in last second, got Covid and showed his arm was shot and 7-9 looks like a good coaching job to me.

Tom is the greatest. But so is Belichick. It's okay to admit that they both wouldn't have been as great without the other.

I agree, both wouldn’t have been as successful without the other. Question is, can one win a SB without the other. Brady proved that he can. Do you think Bill will be able win at least one super bowl without Tom before he retires?

Yup. I do.

[tstorey_97]

I agree with nick.  The legacy of both is secure.  Both would have won without the other, but neither would have won as much.

Well said, lads!

[Goldstar88]

I agree with nick.  The legacy of both is secure.  Both would have won without the other, but neither would have won as much.

Well said, lads!

Luckily we don’t have to ponder hypotheticals. Tom already did win and now Bill has the next 5-7 years to do the same. Luckily for Belichick, he seems to have his QB of the future with Mac, and now we get to see what he’s able to do in the post Brady era. Hopefully he gets one more, but I’m not super confident in that given he has a losing record as a head coach without TB12. If Bill wins one without Brady, he is hands down the greatest coach of all time. If not, I believe his legacy will be tarnished.

[nickagneta]

I agree with nick.  The legacy of both is secure.  Both would have won without the other, but neither would have won as much.

Well said, lads!

Luckily we don’t have to ponder hypotheticals. Tom already did win and now Bill has the next 5-7 years to do the same. Luckily for Belichick, he seems to have his QB of the future with Mac, and now we get to see what he’s able to do in the post Brady era. Hopefully he gets one more, but I’m not super confident in that given he has a losing record as a head coach without TB12. If Bill wins one without Brady, he is hands down the greatest coach of all time. If not, I believe his legacy will be tarnished.

A guy with 8 Super Bowl rings, 17 division titles and the third most wins in NFL history will have a tarnished record if he doesn't win another Super Bowl? Do you even read the stuff you type before posting it.

I get it. You're a TB guy and have little love for Belichick. Because of their public personas, Tom is an easy guy to like and Bill isn't. I get that. But thinking Bill has a tarnished legacy because he doesn't win another title before retiring is a bit disrespectful to what he has accomplished.