Author Topic: Coronavirus Concerns  (Read 487135 times)

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Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6390 on: October 13, 2021, 09:32:30 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I find it strange that those in the medical community are so adverse to getting the Covid vaccine when, just to be hired by most medical facilities you have to be up to date or get vaccinated against things like MMR, Hepatitis A and B and rabies. I can't help but think that the distaste for vaccination from Covid, in most of those in that community, is down to politics and nothing else. Which is sad.

I don't think it is politics. Nurses in other countries have been hesitant about the vaccine also. So it is not a USA issue.

I'd guess it is more down to working in the medical world and seeing consequences of drug side-effects and over-medication + concerns about a vaccine being fast-tracked into the market and wanting to wait longer to make sure it is safe.
It's not many that are hesitant. Even in the US, where vaccine hesitancy is relatively high, 88% of nurses and 96% of physicians have been vaccinated or intend to be (per the American Nurses Association and American Medical Association). It just so happens that the small majority is incredibly vocal.

But I definitely do think it's politics. Politics transcends borders in these times. I mean, had one American guy in here lying about an Australian Member of Parliament misspeaking, trying to use it as evidence that vaccines don't work. The internet has made ideas spread verrrry quickly

How is THAT line not enough.

The overwhelming majority of people that have studied and worked in the field that specialises in this area, chooses to get it.

Yet we go onto a basketball forum to ask others "should I get the jab".

I just don't understand human thinking anymore. It's like people don't realise that as a human being, you can not understand every single thing that happens in our lives anymore.

We gotta relinquish some of that, on occasion. Rely on the people that are trained and experienced in a field.

It's why we don't build our own websites but get someone to do it for us. It's why we hire a car mechanic. It's why we get a lawyer.

Media has bred us to be a scared, paranoid bunch.

In the mid-2000s I was critical of a local pediatric office for liberal prescription of antibiotics based on some info I was reading at the time that made sense to me. Early 2010s I found they had changed their protocol and were hesitant to prescribe antibiotics unless they felt they were definitely necessary. I was amazed they could be so far behind, being doctors and experts and me being just a guy with a brain.

As an aside:  same thing with opiates.


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Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6391 on: October 13, 2021, 11:03:40 PM »

Online nickagneta

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I find it strange that those in the medical community are so adverse to getting the Covid vaccine when, just to be hired by most medical facilities you have to be up to date or get vaccinated against things like MMR, Hepatitis A and B and rabies. I can't help but think that the distaste for vaccination from Covid, in most of those in that community, is down to politics and nothing else. Which is sad.

Could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that COVID is not those other diseases and the COVID vaccines are not the MMR, Hepatitis and rabies vaccines?
Isn't that exactly my point? Not sure what you are getting at here.

I thought your point was that it came down to politics and nothing else. Not that people might evaluate diseases and vaccines individually.
That's the point. And, as medical professionals they should see little difference in getting a vaccine for other diseases vs Covid. That they don't, to me, signifies they have been influenced politically. Sorry if you disagree, but that is the way I see it, especially given the numbers from the ANA and AMA and some of the stories I have seen that  much of these medical professionals are located in Red states. Not all. But a whole bunch.

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6392 on: October 14, 2021, 02:53:37 AM »

Offline Kiorrik

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I find it strange that those in the medical community are so adverse to getting the Covid vaccine when, just to be hired by most medical facilities you have to be up to date or get vaccinated against things like MMR, Hepatitis A and B and rabies. I can't help but think that the distaste for vaccination from Covid, in most of those in that community, is down to politics and nothing else. Which is sad.

I don't think it is politics. Nurses in other countries have been hesitant about the vaccine also. So it is not a USA issue.

I'd guess it is more down to working in the medical world and seeing consequences of drug side-effects and over-medication + concerns about a vaccine being fast-tracked into the market and wanting to wait longer to make sure it is safe.
It's not many that are hesitant. Even in the US, where vaccine hesitancy is relatively high, 88% of nurses and 96% of physicians have been vaccinated or intend to be (per the American Nurses Association and American Medical Association). It just so happens that the small majority is incredibly vocal.

But I definitely do think it's politics. Politics transcends borders in these times. I mean, had one American guy in here lying about an Australian Member of Parliament misspeaking, trying to use it as evidence that vaccines don't work. The internet has made ideas spread verrrry quickly

How is THAT line not enough.

The overwhelming majority of people that have studied and worked in the field that specialises in this area, chooses to get it.

Yet we go onto a basketball forum to ask others "should I get the jab".

I just don't understand human thinking anymore. It's like people don't realise that as a human being, you can not understand every single thing that happens in our lives anymore.

We gotta relinquish some of that, on occasion. Rely on the people that are trained and experienced in a field.

It's why we don't build our own websites but get someone to do it for us. It's why we hire a car mechanic. It's why we get a lawyer.

Media has bred us to be a scared, paranoid bunch.

In the mid-2000s I was critical of a local pediatric office for liberal prescription of antibiotics based on some info I was reading at the time that made sense to me. Early 2010s I found they had changed their protocol and were hesitant to prescribe antibiotics unless they felt they were definitely necessary. I was amazed they could be so far behind, being doctors and experts and me being just a guy with a brain.

And I can disagree with a mechanic on whether I need a new battery or new headlights.

I won't disagree when over 90% of all mechanics says that though.

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6393 on: October 14, 2021, 04:24:53 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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I think the metaphor is losing focus of some key points here: antibiotic and opioid over-prescription is a very different beast than what we are seeing here.

There are people out there who feel hesitant because most of the Covid vaccines are delivered in a way that most vaccines have not been - it's literally new technology implemented on a large scale for the first time. This is a reasonable hesitancy, but (in a perfect world) opinions change as the information changes, and we would suspect by now that the efficacy would have shifted opinions if the hesitancy was really based on that.
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6394 on: October 14, 2021, 07:11:19 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Read an article that blames covid in part for record number of drug overdose death in 2020 . 
93K died in USA

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6395 on: October 14, 2021, 07:31:54 AM »

Offline gift

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I think the metaphor is losing focus of some key points here: antibiotic and opioid over-prescription is a very different beast than what we are seeing here.

There are people out there who feel hesitant because most of the Covid vaccines are delivered in a way that most vaccines have not been - it's literally new technology implemented on a large scale for the first time. This is a reasonable hesitancy, but (in a perfect world) opinions change as the information changes, and we would suspect by now that the efficacy would have shifted opinions if the hesitancy was really based on that.

It wasn't being used to compare to COVID. It was used as an example of how doctors and experts can lag behind better protocol (for one reason or another) and how a good portion of "laypeople" can grasp that problem using good info and sound reasoning. It essentially is just one example of why you don't necessarily want to appeal to experts.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 07:47:57 AM by gift »

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6396 on: October 14, 2021, 07:35:30 AM »

Offline gift

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I find it strange that those in the medical community are so adverse to getting the Covid vaccine when, just to be hired by most medical facilities you have to be up to date or get vaccinated against things like MMR, Hepatitis A and B and rabies. I can't help but think that the distaste for vaccination from Covid, in most of those in that community, is down to politics and nothing else. Which is sad.

I don't think it is politics. Nurses in other countries have been hesitant about the vaccine also. So it is not a USA issue.

I'd guess it is more down to working in the medical world and seeing consequences of drug side-effects and over-medication + concerns about a vaccine being fast-tracked into the market and wanting to wait longer to make sure it is safe.
It's not many that are hesitant. Even in the US, where vaccine hesitancy is relatively high, 88% of nurses and 96% of physicians have been vaccinated or intend to be (per the American Nurses Association and American Medical Association). It just so happens that the small majority is incredibly vocal.

But I definitely do think it's politics. Politics transcends borders in these times. I mean, had one American guy in here lying about an Australian Member of Parliament misspeaking, trying to use it as evidence that vaccines don't work. The internet has made ideas spread verrrry quickly

How is THAT line not enough.

The overwhelming majority of people that have studied and worked in the field that specialises in this area, chooses to get it.

Yet we go onto a basketball forum to ask others "should I get the jab".

I just don't understand human thinking anymore. It's like people don't realise that as a human being, you can not understand every single thing that happens in our lives anymore.

We gotta relinquish some of that, on occasion. Rely on the people that are trained and experienced in a field.

It's why we don't build our own websites but get someone to do it for us. It's why we hire a car mechanic. It's why we get a lawyer.

Media has bred us to be a scared, paranoid bunch.

In the mid-2000s I was critical of a local pediatric office for liberal prescription of antibiotics based on some info I was reading at the time that made sense to me. Early 2010s I found they had changed their protocol and were hesitant to prescribe antibiotics unless they felt they were definitely necessary. I was amazed they could be so far behind, being doctors and experts and me being just a guy with a brain.

And I can disagree with a mechanic on whether I need a new battery or new headlights.

I won't disagree when over 90% of all mechanics says that though.

And you don't have to. But you also shouldn't discount others when they do. They might be right (for a variety of reasons), they might be in a better decision to utilize the mechanic's input (fix the car vs. buy a new one), or it might just be their right to be wrong. What makes you an expert on abilities of others when you can't even decide what to do with your own car?

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6397 on: October 14, 2021, 07:38:43 AM »

Offline gift

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I find it strange that those in the medical community are so adverse to getting the Covid vaccine when, just to be hired by most medical facilities you have to be up to date or get vaccinated against things like MMR, Hepatitis A and B and rabies. I can't help but think that the distaste for vaccination from Covid, in most of those in that community, is down to politics and nothing else. Which is sad.

Could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that COVID is not those other diseases and the COVID vaccines are not the MMR, Hepatitis and rabies vaccines?
Isn't that exactly my point? Not sure what you are getting at here.

I thought your point was that it came down to politics and nothing else. Not that people might evaluate diseases and vaccines individually.
That's the point. And, as medical professionals they should see little difference in getting a vaccine for other diseases vs Covid. That they don't, to me, signifies they have been influenced politically. Sorry if you disagree, but that is the way I see it, especially given the numbers from the ANA and AMA and some of the stories I have seen that  much of these medical professionals are located in Red states. Not all. But a whole bunch.

I don't even have a problem with your conclusion. The logic is faulty. You observe that this group of people should know enough to make X decision. They don't make that decision. Your assumption is that they are wrong and therefore politics is to blame. That's certainly an opinion, but a weakly supported one. Why wouldn't it occur to you, if you were to accept the premise that the group is positioned to be well-informed, that they made informed decisions and that there are good reasons for their decisions?

Sometimes your answer is in your question. But you won't find it if you assume the conclusion.

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6398 on: October 14, 2021, 08:47:07 AM »

Online Roy H.

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One of the guys in our friend group died of Covid last night.  Yes, he had health issues — he was around 300 pounds — but he also wasn’t even 45 yet.

It gets frustrating when I hear only 85 year olds die from Covid.


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Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6399 on: October 14, 2021, 09:36:09 AM »

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One of the guys in our friend group died of Covid last night.  Yes, he had health issues — he was around 300 pounds — but he also wasn’t even 45 yet.

It gets frustrating when I hear only 85 year olds die from Covid.

I'm sorry to hear that. We lost a close family friend in her 40's back in March. One of the nicest people you could ever meet, a true asset to this world (and I don't say things like this lightly). She had similar health issues as your friend plus an immune condition. She was high risk, but probably didn't think of herself that way because most of the people around her were relatively low risk.

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6400 on: October 14, 2021, 09:59:14 AM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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I find it strange that those in the medical community are so adverse to getting the Covid vaccine when, just to be hired by most medical facilities you have to be up to date or get vaccinated against things like MMR, Hepatitis A and B and rabies. I can't help but think that the distaste for vaccination from Covid, in most of those in that community, is down to politics and nothing else. Which is sad.

Could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that COVID is not those other diseases and the COVID vaccines are not the MMR, Hepatitis and rabies vaccines?
Isn't that exactly my point? Not sure what you are getting at here.

I thought your point was that it came down to politics and nothing else. Not that people might evaluate diseases and vaccines individually.
That's the point. And, as medical professionals they should see little difference in getting a vaccine for other diseases vs Covid. That they don't, to me, signifies they have been influenced politically. Sorry if you disagree, but that is the way I see it, especially given the numbers from the ANA and AMA and some of the stories I have seen that  much of these medical professionals are located in Red states. Not all. But a whole bunch.

I don't even have a problem with your conclusion. The logic is faulty. You observe that this group of people should know enough to make X decision. They don't make that decision. Your assumption is that they are wrong and therefore politics is to blame. That's certainly an opinion, but a weakly supported one. Why wouldn't it occur to you, if you were to accept the premise that the group is positioned to be well-informed, that they made informed decisions and that there are good reasons for their decisions?

Sometimes your answer is in your question. But you won't find it if you assume the conclusion.

Are there legitimate reasons not to get the vaccine? I haven't seen one.

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6401 on: October 14, 2021, 11:14:38 AM »

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I find it strange that those in the medical community are so adverse to getting the Covid vaccine when, just to be hired by most medical facilities you have to be up to date or get vaccinated against things like MMR, Hepatitis A and B and rabies. I can't help but think that the distaste for vaccination from Covid, in most of those in that community, is down to politics and nothing else. Which is sad.

Could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that COVID is not those other diseases and the COVID vaccines are not the MMR, Hepatitis and rabies vaccines?
Isn't that exactly my point? Not sure what you are getting at here.

I thought your point was that it came down to politics and nothing else. Not that people might evaluate diseases and vaccines individually.
That's the point. And, as medical professionals they should see little difference in getting a vaccine for other diseases vs Covid. That they don't, to me, signifies they have been influenced politically. Sorry if you disagree, but that is the way I see it, especially given the numbers from the ANA and AMA and some of the stories I have seen that  much of these medical professionals are located in Red states. Not all. But a whole bunch.

I don't even have a problem with your conclusion. The logic is faulty. You observe that this group of people should know enough to make X decision. They don't make that decision. Your assumption is that they are wrong and therefore politics is to blame. That's certainly an opinion, but a weakly supported one. Why wouldn't it occur to you, if you were to accept the premise that the group is positioned to be well-informed, that they made informed decisions and that there are good reasons for their decisions?

Sometimes your answer is in your question. But you won't find it if you assume the conclusion.

Are there legitimate reasons not to get the vaccine? I haven't seen one.

That's a separate discussion that I won't derail this particular chain of conversation with.

My point here is simply about the flaw in looking at people who you think should have a certain level of understanding about something, and yet concluding something different than you as being indicative of them being influenced by politics and little else. That itself seems like a potentially politically influenced conclusion, or at least just flawed reasoning. Because if you accept that they are in positions to have a certain level of understanding, it stands that their conclusions might indicate merit on the part of those conclusions.

I don't think it's true that health care workers necessarily are better positioned to make health decisions. But if they are, when they make counter-intuitive ones, you can't simply conclude that they are wrong if you're also attributing the conclusions of those you agree with to their standing in the medical field.

Basically: Nurse agrees with me- I must be correct if I agree with this nurse. Nurse doesn't agree with me- what's wrong with this nurse?

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6402 on: October 14, 2021, 11:17:38 AM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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I find it strange that those in the medical community are so adverse to getting the Covid vaccine when, just to be hired by most medical facilities you have to be up to date or get vaccinated against things like MMR, Hepatitis A and B and rabies. I can't help but think that the distaste for vaccination from Covid, in most of those in that community, is down to politics and nothing else. Which is sad.

Could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that COVID is not those other diseases and the COVID vaccines are not the MMR, Hepatitis and rabies vaccines?
Isn't that exactly my point? Not sure what you are getting at here.

I thought your point was that it came down to politics and nothing else. Not that people might evaluate diseases and vaccines individually.
That's the point. And, as medical professionals they should see little difference in getting a vaccine for other diseases vs Covid. That they don't, to me, signifies they have been influenced politically. Sorry if you disagree, but that is the way I see it, especially given the numbers from the ANA and AMA and some of the stories I have seen that  much of these medical professionals are located in Red states. Not all. But a whole bunch.

I don't even have a problem with your conclusion. The logic is faulty. You observe that this group of people should know enough to make X decision. They don't make that decision. Your assumption is that they are wrong and therefore politics is to blame. That's certainly an opinion, but a weakly supported one. Why wouldn't it occur to you, if you were to accept the premise that the group is positioned to be well-informed, that they made informed decisions and that there are good reasons for their decisions?

Sometimes your answer is in your question. But you won't find it if you assume the conclusion.

Are there legitimate reasons not to get the vaccine? I haven't seen one.

That's a separate discussion that I won't derail this particular chain of conversation with.

My point here is simply about the flaw in looking at people who you think should have a certain level of understanding about something, and yet concluding something different than you as being indicative of them being influenced by politics and little else. That itself seems like a potentially politically influenced conclusion, or at least just flawed reasoning. Because if you accept that they are in positions to have a certain level of understanding, it stands that their conclusions might indicate merit on the part of those conclusions.

I don't think it's true that health care workers necessarily are better positioned to make health decisions. But if they are, when they make counter-intuitive ones, you can't simply conclude that they are wrong if you're also attributing the conclusions of those you agree with to their standing in the medical field.

Basically: Nurse agrees with me- I must be correct if I agree with this nurse. Nurse doesn't agree with me- what's wrong with this nurse?

It sounds like you don't want to open yourself up to criticism for making unsubstantiated claims about the efficacy of vaccines.

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6403 on: October 14, 2021, 11:23:12 AM »

Online Moranis

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I find it strange that those in the medical community are so adverse to getting the Covid vaccine when, just to be hired by most medical facilities you have to be up to date or get vaccinated against things like MMR, Hepatitis A and B and rabies. I can't help but think that the distaste for vaccination from Covid, in most of those in that community, is down to politics and nothing else. Which is sad.

Could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that COVID is not those other diseases and the COVID vaccines are not the MMR, Hepatitis and rabies vaccines?
Isn't that exactly my point? Not sure what you are getting at here.

I thought your point was that it came down to politics and nothing else. Not that people might evaluate diseases and vaccines individually.
That's the point. And, as medical professionals they should see little difference in getting a vaccine for other diseases vs Covid. That they don't, to me, signifies they have been influenced politically. Sorry if you disagree, but that is the way I see it, especially given the numbers from the ANA and AMA and some of the stories I have seen that  much of these medical professionals are located in Red states. Not all. But a whole bunch.

I don't even have a problem with your conclusion. The logic is faulty. You observe that this group of people should know enough to make X decision. They don't make that decision. Your assumption is that they are wrong and therefore politics is to blame. That's certainly an opinion, but a weakly supported one. Why wouldn't it occur to you, if you were to accept the premise that the group is positioned to be well-informed, that they made informed decisions and that there are good reasons for their decisions?

Sometimes your answer is in your question. But you won't find it if you assume the conclusion.

Are there legitimate reasons not to get the vaccine? I haven't seen one.

That's a separate discussion that I won't derail this particular chain of conversation with.

My point here is simply about the flaw in looking at people who you think should have a certain level of understanding about something, and yet concluding something different than you as being indicative of them being influenced by politics and little else. That itself seems like a potentially politically influenced conclusion, or at least just flawed reasoning. Because if you accept that they are in positions to have a certain level of understanding, it stands that their conclusions might indicate merit on the part of those conclusions.

I don't think it's true that health care workers necessarily are better positioned to make health decisions. But if they are, when they make counter-intuitive ones, you can't simply conclude that they are wrong if you're also attributing the conclusions of those you agree with to their standing in the medical field.

Basically: Nurse agrees with me- I must be correct if I agree with this nurse. Nurse doesn't agree with me- what's wrong with this nurse?
The whole line of this post chain goes exactly to the reasons why people wouldn't get a vaccine and now you don't want to talk about it.  Come on man, do better.  Nick's point is the reason they aren't getting it is political, you want to challenge that notion, but then offer no other reasons that it isn't political.  You are just spewing nonsense that you can't support.  Either support the position or stop talking about it.
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Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6404 on: October 14, 2021, 11:55:52 AM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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I find it strange that those in the medical community are so adverse to getting the Covid vaccine when, just to be hired by most medical facilities you have to be up to date or get vaccinated against things like MMR, Hepatitis A and B and rabies. I can't help but think that the distaste for vaccination from Covid, in most of those in that community, is down to politics and nothing else. Which is sad.

Could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that COVID is not those other diseases and the COVID vaccines are not the MMR, Hepatitis and rabies vaccines?
Isn't that exactly my point? Not sure what you are getting at here.

I thought your point was that it came down to politics and nothing else. Not that people might evaluate diseases and vaccines individually.
That's the point. And, as medical professionals they should see little difference in getting a vaccine for other diseases vs Covid. That they don't, to me, signifies they have been influenced politically. Sorry if you disagree, but that is the way I see it, especially given the numbers from the ANA and AMA and some of the stories I have seen that  much of these medical professionals are located in Red states. Not all. But a whole bunch.

I don't even have a problem with your conclusion. The logic is faulty. You observe that this group of people should know enough to make X decision. They don't make that decision. Your assumption is that they are wrong and therefore politics is to blame. That's certainly an opinion, but a weakly supported one. Why wouldn't it occur to you, if you were to accept the premise that the group is positioned to be well-informed, that they made informed decisions and that there are good reasons for their decisions?

Sometimes your answer is in your question. But you won't find it if you assume the conclusion.

Are there legitimate reasons not to get the vaccine? I haven't seen one.

That's a separate discussion that I won't derail this particular chain of conversation with.

My point here is simply about the flaw in looking at people who you think should have a certain level of understanding about something, and yet concluding something different than you as being indicative of them being influenced by politics and little else. That itself seems like a potentially politically influenced conclusion, or at least just flawed reasoning. Because if you accept that they are in positions to have a certain level of understanding, it stands that their conclusions might indicate merit on the part of those conclusions.

I don't think it's true that health care workers necessarily are better positioned to make health decisions. But if they are, when they make counter-intuitive ones, you can't simply conclude that they are wrong if you're also attributing the conclusions of those you agree with to their standing in the medical field.

Basically: Nurse agrees with me- I must be correct if I agree with this nurse. Nurse doesn't agree with me- what's wrong with this nurse?
The whole line of this post chain goes exactly to the reasons why people wouldn't get a vaccine and now you don't want to talk about it.  Come on man, do better.  Nick's point is the reason they aren't getting it is political, you want to challenge that notion, but then offer no other reasons that it isn't political.  You are just spewing nonsense that you can't support.  Either support the position or stop talking about it.

This is spot on. Few want to defend Kyrie's flat earth theory b/c they realize how dumb the defense will sound. Very few want to discuss the efficacy of the vaccine for this same reason.

Instead, people want to focus on the politics of a mandate, because they don't want the government telling them what to do.

Is there a cogent argument anywhere in this universe that states that the vast majority of people shouldn't get vaccinated?