Have you bought into Lebron HypeMachine???

[housecall]

Lebron is the best player in the game.

He has become just about impossible to guard with his combination of size, speed, shooting (an improving aspect) and vision to hit the open man with a pass. 


And once he decided to play defense, he has become probably the best defensive SF in the NBA, because of his size and speed.


Lebron is ether bigger then his man or faster then his man or (most likely) bigger and faster then his man.



Kobe is still number 2. 


Wade, Melo and Durrant are the next class below.  Durrant has the best chance of jumping up if he ever decided to play defense.

If most games were called on a even playing field(correctly)Lebron wouldn't be as productive offensively...in the 70's,80's Lebron wouldn't be close to the success he's had so far today.I feel he is in a era of players with less talented players,and defense is not top priority to most teams.I think Melo,Durant,Wade,Pierce and a few others would be more successful than James in a different era of players because of  their natural ability without aid from bias officiating.
  

So your saying an era where Lebron will be even bigger and faster by comparision to other SFs and he is allowed to be more physical on defense is a bad thing for him?


He (much like the scorers of that era) would be able to adjust to the more physical play.  He has more then enough size to deal with that. 

He would still be bigger.  He would still be faster.  And he would still have the improving shot and good vision. 


It is a guy like Wade that would have problems.  He would have been injured even more. 

Im saying he wouldn't be coming thru the paint as often,and as successful...he would have developed an outside game quicker than he did in this era.I have heard retired players like Mahorn,Pippens,Lambeire on different NBA talk shows make reference to if Lebron was playing in their day,with quotes like he would be fresh meat(laughing).There were more physical players per team in those days to either shut him down or make him think twice about coming thru the paint.

Is it that he is much better than other players or is some of his success from the way the game is being called these days?...todays officiating has some to do with his success.

I still feel Melo would win 6 out 10 games head to head aganist Lebron and Melo is a better NBA player than James.

Why would Lebron stop attacking the basket?  He is still physically bigger then the man defending him.  Heck, he is probably bigger and stronger then some of the PF back then. 

And in a deeper NBA, he would have better talent around him making it harder to double him all the time, especially with his talent to see and pass the ball. 

And by what measure do you use to say Melo is better?

James has better numbers
James plays better defense.
James has been further in the playoff and has had his team being a true contender for a longer time. 

Apparently you aren't old enough to appreciate the types of defense played in those past eras.If you were an NBA fan(adult)in those days i don't think you would be asking these questions.I see you keep repeating Lebron's size/strength,whereas there were players in the 70's,80's able to slow him down.I would bet money Lebron would have thought twice before driving to the basket like he does in this present day NBA.  

 As far as Melo vs Lebron...my measuring stick is mostly eyeball.Although James might be leading in scoring,assists,rebounds,their stats are probably close in most categories,depending on the week.I do not keep up with stats regularly but i think Melo is close in points.As far as defense,Melo has stepped his defense up this season just as James has.Whenever a team's primetime scorer plays the Nuggets,i see Melo taking on the responsibility of playing one on one defense on him,like James does.Melo has been just as successful as James playing guys like Kobe,Wade.Playoff wise,Lebron has had better players around him until this past season.In the past i say Lebron was better because Melo was going through some maturity issues besides playing with a lot of scrubs,but we are rating them today.Melo is a more complete player today than he was a few seasons ago.Prior to Billups showing up in Denver,he did shoot the ball to much and didn't include his team mates enough.It could be the players around him wasn't that good at the time.The only player i can remember in Denver that was any good(pre-Billups)was AI. 
  I look at the intanglables what both players bring to the table as well...they both are doing the little things for their teams that don't show up in the stat sheets night after night.I don't see Lebron running away with anything in this case either.
  Remember,right before Melo went down with injuries several months ago,he was the leading candidate for MVP.When he returned the media had jumped on the Lebron banwagon for MVP...But Melo has regained his high level of play,like he never left,but the media seems to want Lebron to win no matter what.

Yeah, being 33 means I have never seen a game before Lebron played.

 


And the 70's and 80's were known for defense.   




And Lebron didn't have to deal with any good defense in his career.  He never had to play the Boston Celtics before this season. 

 


Who has Lebron played with that is as good as Billups while still close to his prime?

No, Lebron has actually beaten Billups in the playoffs.


If Lebron had to play in the era of real physical defenses (the early 90's with the Pistons, Knicks and Heat) he (much like Jordan had to) would have been pushed to improve his game to beat those defenses. 


Playing in an era with tougher defense would have pushed today stars to be better then they are.

Its obvious you are purposely reading into my post some things incorrectly so i will leave it be.But i think you got it just don't want to admit it.I wasted to much time on a subject that is not that important to me anyhow.

[wdleehi]

Lebron is the best player in the game.

He has become just about impossible to guard with his combination of size, speed, shooting (an improving aspect) and vision to hit the open man with a pass. 


And once he decided to play defense, he has become probably the best defensive SF in the NBA, because of his size and speed.


Lebron is ether bigger then his man or faster then his man or (most likely) bigger and faster then his man.



Kobe is still number 2. 


Wade, Melo and Durrant are the next class below.  Durrant has the best chance of jumping up if he ever decided to play defense.

If most games were called on a even playing field(correctly)Lebron wouldn't be as productive offensively...in the 70's,80's Lebron wouldn't be close to the success he's had so far today.I feel he is in a era of players with less talented players,and defense is not top priority to most teams.I think Melo,Durant,Wade,Pierce and a few others would be more successful than James in a different era of players because of  their natural ability without aid from bias officiating.
  

So your saying an era where Lebron will be even bigger and faster by comparision to other SFs and he is allowed to be more physical on defense is a bad thing for him?


He (much like the scorers of that era) would be able to adjust to the more physical play.  He has more then enough size to deal with that. 

He would still be bigger.  He would still be faster.  And he would still have the improving shot and good vision. 


It is a guy like Wade that would have problems.  He would have been injured even more. 

Im saying he wouldn't be coming thru the paint as often,and as successful...he would have developed an outside game quicker than he did in this era.I have heard retired players like Mahorn,Pippens,Lambeire on different NBA talk shows make reference to if Lebron was playing in their day,with quotes like he would be fresh meat(laughing).There were more physical players per team in those days to either shut him down or make him think twice about coming thru the paint.

Is it that he is much better than other players or is some of his success from the way the game is being called these days?...todays officiating has some to do with his success.

I still feel Melo would win 6 out 10 games head to head aganist Lebron and Melo is a better NBA player than James.

Why would Lebron stop attacking the basket?  He is still physically bigger then the man defending him.  Heck, he is probably bigger and stronger then some of the PF back then. 

And in a deeper NBA, he would have better talent around him making it harder to double him all the time, especially with his talent to see and pass the ball. 

And by what measure do you use to say Melo is better?

James has better numbers
James plays better defense.
James has been further in the playoff and has had his team being a true contender for a longer time. 

Apparently you aren't old enough to appreciate the types of defense played in those past eras.If you were an NBA fan(adult)in those days i don't think you would be asking these questions.I see you keep repeating Lebron's size/strength,whereas there were players in the 70's,80's able to slow him down.I would bet money Lebron would have thought twice before driving to the basket like he does in this present day NBA.  

 As far as Melo vs Lebron...my measuring stick is mostly eyeball.Although James might be leading in scoring,assists,rebounds,their stats are probably close in most categories,depending on the week.I do not keep up with stats regularly but i think Melo is close in points.As far as defense,Melo has stepped his defense up this season just as James has.Whenever a team's primetime scorer plays the Nuggets,i see Melo taking on the responsibility of playing one on one defense on him,like James does.Melo has been just as successful as James playing guys like Kobe,Wade.Playoff wise,Lebron has had better players around him until this past season.In the past i say Lebron was better because Melo was going through some maturity issues besides playing with a lot of scrubs,but we are rating them today.Melo is a more complete player today than he was a few seasons ago.Prior to Billups showing up in Denver,he did shoot the ball to much and didn't include his team mates enough.It could be the players around him wasn't that good at the time.The only player i can remember in Denver that was any good(pre-Billups)was AI. 
  I look at the intanglables what both players bring to the table as well...they both are doing the little things for their teams that don't show up in the stat sheets night after night.I don't see Lebron running away with anything in this case either.
  Remember,right before Melo went down with injuries several months ago,he was the leading candidate for MVP.When he returned the media had jumped on the Lebron banwagon for MVP...But Melo has regained his high level of play,like he never left,but the media seems to want Lebron to win no matter what.

Yeah, being 33 means I have never seen a game before Lebron played.

 


And the 70's and 80's were known for defense.   




And Lebron didn't have to deal with any good defense in his career.  He never had to play the Boston Celtics before this season. 

 


Who has Lebron played with that is as good as Billups while still close to his prime?

No, Lebron has actually beaten Billups in the playoffs.


If Lebron had to play in the era of real physical defenses (the early 90's with the Pistons, Knicks and Heat) he (much like Jordan had to) would have been pushed to improve his game to beat those defenses. 


Playing in an era with tougher defense would have pushed today stars to be better then they are.

Its obvious you are purposely reading into my post some things incorrectly so i will leave it be.But i think you got it just don't want to admit it.I wasted to much time on a subject that is not that important to me anyhow.

No.  I read your words.  I responded to them. 


You want to not like Lebron.  Therefor, when faced with a strong arguement against your point of view, you try and attack the other person's knowledge.


Thus the following comments.

Apparently you aren't old enough to appreciate the types of defense played in those past eras.If you were an NBA fan(adult)in those days i don't think you would be asking these questions.

Its obvious you are purposely reading into my post some things incorrectly so i will leave it be.But i think you got it just don't want to admit it

So, if that is all you have to add to a discussion, you are probably right, it is time for you to move on from said topic.

[MMacOH]

For the people on here who say Lebron isn't worried about winning yet in his career.  A clip from Brian Windhorst's blog (Cavs beat writer) on Lebron:

* Right about this time every season LeBron James flips a switch. It isn't always easy to see because his play on the floor always looks about the same. But in the middle of March he begins to slowly dial up his intensity as he heads toward the playoffs.

You really start to see it on gamedays. For the last couple of weeks, James has been starting to crank up his routine. He takes more time after shootaround and he prepares more before games. When on the road, there are two busses that come over from the team hotel, an early and a late. Most of the season James comes on the late bus, which is a half hour behind and gets to the arena about two hours before tip off. When he starts his playoff mode, James starts coming on the first bus to get extra shooting and pregame work in.

Before the game with the Hornets, which James takes a little more seriously because it is against close friend Chris Paul, James got his own ride and came to the arena before anyone else on the team to do shooting work. In fact, James did two shooting sessions before he even came out for the standard pregame warmups. Then he went out and went 15-of-22 shooting and scored 38 points.

When the cameras are on and when fans are in the building pregame it can look like James is just messing around, dunking and trying halfcourt shots. At some points in the season he is. But don't just believe what you see, James is working harder than ever.

MMac, do you or Brian Windhorst really think that what LeBron is doing in committing himself to more pregame work and so forth as the playoffs near is really any different than any other superstar in the NBA? I don't think that piece proves anything or separates LeBron in any way from any other very good player in the NBA.

Not sure, but then again, how many other superstars aren't supposedly concerned about winning like Lebron is?

[housecall]

Lebron is the best player in the game.

He has become just about impossible to guard with his combination of size, speed, shooting (an improving aspect) and vision to hit the open man with a pass. 


And once he decided to play defense, he has become probably the best defensive SF in the NBA, because of his size and speed.


Lebron is ether bigger then his man or faster then his man or (most likely) bigger and faster then his man.



Kobe is still number 2. 


Wade, Melo and Durrant are the next class below.  Durrant has the best chance of jumping up if he ever decided to play defense.

If most games were called on a even playing field(correctly)Lebron wouldn't be as productive offensively...in the 70's,80's Lebron wouldn't be close to the success he's had so far today.I feel he is in a era of players with less talented players,and defense is not top priority to most teams.I think Melo,Durant,Wade,Pierce and a few others would be more successful than James in a different era of players because of  their natural ability without aid from bias officiating.
  

So your saying an era where Lebron will be even bigger and faster by comparision to other SFs and he is allowed to be more physical on defense is a bad thing for him?


He (much like the scorers of that era) would be able to adjust to the more physical play.  He has more then enough size to deal with that. 

He would still be bigger.  He would still be faster.  And he would still have the improving shot and good vision. 


It is a guy like Wade that would have problems.  He would have been injured even more. 

Im saying he wouldn't be coming thru the paint as often,and as successful...he would have developed an outside game quicker than he did in this era.I have heard retired players like Mahorn,Pippens,Lambeire on different NBA talk shows make reference to if Lebron was playing in their day,with quotes like he would be fresh meat(laughing).There were more physical players per team in those days to either shut him down or make him think twice about coming thru the paint.

Is it that he is much better than other players or is some of his success from the way the game is being called these days?...todays officiating has some to do with his success.

I still feel Melo would win 6 out 10 games head to head aganist Lebron and Melo is a better NBA player than James.

Why would Lebron stop attacking the basket?  He is still physically bigger then the man defending him.  Heck, he is probably bigger and stronger then some of the PF back then. 

And in a deeper NBA, he would have better talent around him making it harder to double him all the time, especially with his talent to see and pass the ball. 

And by what measure do you use to say Melo is better?

James has better numbers
James plays better defense.
James has been further in the playoff and has had his team being a true contender for a longer time. 

Apparently you aren't old enough to appreciate the types of defense played in those past eras.If you were an NBA fan(adult)in those days i don't think you would be asking these questions.I see you keep repeating Lebron's size/strength,whereas there were players in the 70's,80's able to slow him down.I would bet money Lebron would have thought twice before driving to the basket like he does in this present day NBA.  

 As far as Melo vs Lebron...my measuring stick is mostly eyeball.Although James might be leading in scoring,assists,rebounds,their stats are probably close in most categories,depending on the week.I do not keep up with stats regularly but i think Melo is close in points.As far as defense,Melo has stepped his defense up this season just as James has.Whenever a team's primetime scorer plays the Nuggets,i see Melo taking on the responsibility of playing one on one defense on him,like James does.Melo has been just as successful as James playing guys like Kobe,Wade.Playoff wise,Lebron has had better players around him until this past season.In the past i say Lebron was better because Melo was going through some maturity issues besides playing with a lot of scrubs,but we are rating them today.Melo is a more complete player today than he was a few seasons ago.Prior to Billups showing up in Denver,he did shoot the ball to much and didn't include his team mates enough.It could be the players around him wasn't that good at the time.The only player i can remember in Denver that was any good(pre-Billups)was AI. 
  I look at the intanglables what both players bring to the table as well...they both are doing the little things for their teams that don't show up in the stat sheets night after night.I don't see Lebron running away with anything in this case either.
  Remember,right before Melo went down with injuries several months ago,he was the leading candidate for MVP.When he returned the media had jumped on the Lebron banwagon for MVP...But Melo has regained his high level of play,like he never left,but the media seems to want Lebron to win no matter what.

Yeah, being 33 means I have never seen a game before Lebron played.

 


And the 70's and 80's were known for defense.   




And Lebron didn't have to deal with any good defense in his career.  He never had to play the Boston Celtics before this season. 

 


Who has Lebron played with that is as good as Billups while still close to his prime?

No, Lebron has actually beaten Billups in the playoffs.


If Lebron had to play in the era of real physical defenses (the early 90's with the Pistons, Knicks and Heat) he (much like Jordan had to) would have been pushed to improve his game to beat those defenses. 


Playing in an era with tougher defense would have pushed today stars to be better then they are.

Its obvious you are purposely reading into my post some things incorrectly so i will leave it be.But i think you got it just don't want to admit it.I wasted to much time on a subject that is not that important to me anyhow.

No.  I read your words.  I responded to them. 


You want to not like Lebron.  Therefor, when faced with a strong arguement against your point of view, you try and attack the other person's knowledge.


Thus the following comments.

Apparently you aren't old enough to appreciate the types of defense played in those past eras.If you were an NBA fan(adult)in those days i don't think you would be asking these questions.

Its obvious you are purposely reading into my post some things incorrectly so i will leave it be.But i think you got it just don't want to admit it

So, if that is all you have to add to a discussion, you are probably right, it is time for you to move on from said topic.

First,if you weren't a part of the eras i mentioned,stats alone is not good enough to make accurate comparisons in this argument is what i meant...it wasn't meant to be taken as a personal slam to you,but anyone who wasn't a part of those eras mentioned as a fan.(imo)Next,where did you read in any of my posts where i said that i hated Lebron,just don't agree with him being the best?Thats one of the things im talking about,how you are distorting what i said.

"Yeah being 33 means i never watched a game before Lebron"...where/how did you figure that statement you made from what i wrote?Seems like to me i hit a nerve with you when i mentioned "age" being a criteria for certain things.

70's&80's defense...what facts besides(stats)something read,heard from older people do you have to say there wasn't good defenses played in those eras? Those are the things im talking about when you claim im attacking your"knowledge"of the game.What knowledge of the game do you bring on a  personal level from those eras,besides stats?

[wdleehi]

Basically, you are saying the majority of the posters on this site have inferior basketball knowledge to you because we are not as old as you are?


Well, I see if that logic was truth, you could win any arguement you wanted by saying (I'm older.  I have watched more)


Therefor, I will not bother pointing out the sad arguement that lebron, a SF bigger and faster then all other SF in an era where players are bigger and stronger (overall) then the 70's and 80's would be a lesser player because they would be allowed to play more physical because....


You are older.


I am sure that at least 90% of the posters on this site will agree with the "I'm older therefor I am right" logic going forward. 

[housecall]

Basically, you are saying the majority of the posters on this site have inferior basketball knowledge to you because we are not as old as you are?


Well, I see if that logic was truth, you could win any arguement you wanted by saying (I'm older.  I have watched more)


Therefor, I will not bother pointing out the sad arguement that lebron, a SF bigger and faster then all other SF in an era where players are bigger and stronger (overall) then the 70's and 80's would be a lesser player because they would be allowed to play more physical because....


You are older.


I am sure that at least 90% of the posters on this site will agree with the "I'm older therefor I am right" logic going forward. 

Most posters on this board are intelligent enough to know that im not stating that about them at all.If i felt that way,i probably wouldn't be a member here voluntarily this long.Lets not try to turn this into a me-vs-Celticsblog here.

Older has less to do with this,being a witness to some things in life gives a truer picture than others,nothing more nothing less.

To show what an older guy will do,here's a tp to you,even though i know you are angry.

[wdleehi]

Basically, you are saying the majority of the posters on this site have inferior basketball knowledge to you because we are not as old as you are?


Well, I see if that logic was truth, you could win any arguement you wanted by saying (I'm older.  I have watched more)


Therefor, I will not bother pointing out the sad arguement that lebron, a SF bigger and faster then all other SF in an era where players are bigger and stronger (overall) then the 70's and 80's would be a lesser player because they would be allowed to play more physical because....


You are older.


I am sure that at least 90% of the posters on this site will agree with the "I'm older therefor I am right" logic going forward. 

Most posters on this board are intelligent enough to know that im not stating that about them at all.If i felt that way,i probably wouldn't be a member here voluntarily this long.Lets not try to turn this into a me-vs-Celticsblog here.

Older has less to do with this,being a witness to some things in life gives a truer picture than others,nothing more nothing less.

To show what an older guy will do,here's a tp to you,even though i know you are angry.

I'm not angry.  I am responding to what you are writing.  You want to try and blow off my opinion because in your eyes, I am not old enough to have seen the previous eras, well, that's is really just sad. 



Also, wasn't the 70's NBA known for drugs, selfish players that were more about flash? 


Wasn't that why Bird and Magic were so important to the NBA?


And by the way, I did watch in the 80s. 

[nickagneta]

Having been a viewer of 70's, 80's, 90's and 00's basketball here's my opinion on the difference of defenses between eras.

The 70's and most of the 80's basketball was a running sport with strict man to man defenses and no three point line or high reliance on the three point line. So when games broke down into half court basketball most perimeter players severely back off and played soft on their men because the longer the shot the more difficult and for most of that time, there was no extra reward for shooting a long shot.

This made the post a more cramped area and with the lax rules regarding contact on fouls, usually if players tried to be high flyers(something that wasn't common) and tried dunks on drives, they paid a serious price the next time they tried it. What we rarely see nowadays that we call Flagrant 1 and Flagrant 2 fouls were common place in that time if people tried to show up someone by doing a driving dunk. There was a definite price to be paid.

Defense was more relaxed and less complicated in those days but the inside play and the intensity of contact on fouls inside were definitely at a much different level. Especially against those who tried what people nowadays love to see.

With the advent of the Detroit Bad Boys and the three point line, defenses changed. Clutching and grabbing and became commonplace amongst the better teams. This was the most physical the NBA ever got. Late 80's and early 90's basketball was almost basketbrawl. It was ugly and rough.

But then players started becoming better three point shooters and Jordan's Rules started making their way into the officiating of superstars and Stern relaxed rules regarding zone defenses and strengthened rules regarding the clutching and grabbing and putting your hands on players. That led to defensive systems needing to be devised. Defenses became much more complicated and tricky. The technicality of the defensive schemes being used made defenses much more effective in an NBA that was relying more on the three point shot as a weapon and tougher calls on contact especially to superstars.

Now, does that mean Lebron would have thrived or regressed as a player if put into a different era? I haven't a clue. Most definitely LeBron in a different era would have had a physical advantage over those players. But Lebron also doesn't like being handled physically and would pay a severe price game in and game out if he did his flexing and posing and dunking that he does now back then. No flagrant fouls back then would probably mean Lebron getting bet up pretty bad on a lot of fouls each game. If he flexed even once after dunking, there would have been a fight. No doubt about that whatsoever.

[housecall]

 There is huge difference in players nutrition&development of bodies in 70'&80's as it is today...whats to say Lebron would be as physical&as fast,if he was in those eras?

[Donoghus]

There is huge difference in players nutrition&development of bodies in 70'&80's as it is today...whats to say Lebron would be as physical& and as fast,if he was in those eras?

That's one of the great connundrums when trying to compare athletes of differing eras.

[Who]

LeBron James is an MVP caliber player in any era. Just like Larry Bird would be.

[wdleehi]

There is huge difference in players nutrition&development of bodies in 70'&80's as it is today...whats to say Lebron would be as physical&as fast,if he was in those eras?

First, he isn't the best player in the NBA now because he wouldn't be as good in the 70's and 80's.


Now, you have to reduce his physical skills to make that point. 


Lebron is the physical specimen he is.  In today's NBA, it gives him an advantage over most players. 

[fairweatherfan]

There is huge difference in players nutrition&development of bodies in 70'&80's as it is today...whats to say Lebron would be as physical&as fast,if he was in those eras?

First, he isn't the best player in the NBA now because he wouldn't be as good in the 70's and 80's.


Now, you have to reduce his physical skills to make that point. 


Lebron is the physical specimen he is.  In today's NBA, it gives him an advantage over most players. 

Well there is a certain logic to it - was HGH even invented by the 70s? 

[crownsy]

There is huge difference in players nutrition&development of bodies in 70'&80's as it is today...whats to say Lebron would be as physical&as fast,if he was in those eras?

First, he isn't the best player in the NBA now because he wouldn't be as good in the 70's and 80's.


Now, you have to reduce his physical skills to make that point. 


Lebron is the physical specimen he is.  In today's NBA, it gives him an advantage over most players. 

Well there is a certain logic to it - was HGH even invented by the 70s? 

Dunno, but steroids sure were. not nearly as chemically advanced as they are today, but despite baseball's attempts to pretend every era before the 90's was clear of PED's, steroids were widely available at that time.

no less than 3 books, the most well known being ball four, mention primitive steroid and amphetamine use by major ball players back as far as the 60's (mantle was a heavy user, according to bulton, of "greenies")

I find it hard to credit that athletes in other sports didn't know what the score was.

I think the era's argument has some merit that it was a different time and play style. but to me, a player with lebron's skill set would be extremely dominate in any era. He's a once every 20 year player, and he'll finsh up in the top ten of all time, no doubt.

Doesn't mean you have to like the man, i don't, but acknowledging reality isn't "buying into the hype"

[Fafnir]

Older has less to do with this,being a witness to some things in life gives a truer picture than others,nothing more nothing less.

To show what an older guy will do,here's a tp to you,even though i know you are angry.

So because I'm 26 and therefore haven't seen as much basketball as say, Plamb, my opinions are worth less? Are less informed? Aren't as free of illusion and bias?

What are you saying?