Poll

Should we get Vooch for his last 6 months of this contract?

Baynes, Bird, Yabu, first
5 (18.5%)
Rozier, Ojeleye, Yabu, cash and first
6 (22.2%)
Morris, Rozier, Cash (no pick)
2 (7.4%)
No way
11 (40.7%)
Trade for Aaron Gordon instead...
3 (11.1%)

Total Members Voted: 27

Author Topic: Vucevic Rental  (Read 7342 times)

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Re: Vucevic Rental
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2018, 09:21:20 AM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Pass. His defense is still pretty weak, slow footed, unable to defend pick and rolls.

Sure, he's been masterful offensively, but if he was much better the Magic wouldn't be 14-18, chalk it up to missing a competent PG, but a reason for our success on defensive end is due to our ability to defend and switch. Vuvecic has always been a horrible defender, and this year has proved that hasn't changed.
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Re: Vucevic Rental
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2018, 11:05:55 AM »

Offline Big333223

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Why would Orlando do it for Yabu and a mid first? Vucevic is on 12m this year?

Yes, I tried to adjust the poll to give some more realistic scenarios, involving more players and cash.. but generally, I think ORL pull the trigger on a deal because they won't pay him next year.
I know he's having a career year but why would someone suggest that he's a buy-out candidate?
And why wouldn't Orlando pay him? He's a FA but I doubt he'll command anything that Orlando couldn't afford to keep him and I doubt someone would spend crazy $ on him just because they have a lot of cap space. Anything is possible, I guess, but I don't think he gets traded unless Orlando gets a nice offer.

Yeah, this is a weird thread. People saying he's so good so we should try to get him with our worst assets? If he's so good why would Orlando be unwilling to pay him? He's in conversations to make the all star team this year.
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Re: Vucevic Rental
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2018, 04:25:15 PM »

Offline Spicoli

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Would be a nice big off the bench for this team. He can really score and that's exactly what this team needs is guys who can actually put the ball in the hole with consistency. Only Kyrie and Morris have been ultra reliable in that regard.

Re: Vucevic Rental
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2018, 04:36:00 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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i will be really surprised if he doesn't make the all star team this year

Re: Vucevic Rental
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2018, 09:39:41 AM »

Online RodyTur10

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i will be really surprised if he doesn't make the all star team this year

He should. But he might not make it, since he's underrated and it's a popularity vote.

Vucevic is easily the second best center in the East.

Re: Vucevic Rental
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2018, 02:39:16 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Vucevic is easily the second best center in the East.

I would still take Horford over him.


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Re: Vucevic Rental
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2018, 03:10:07 PM »

Online RodyTur10

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Vucevic is easily the second best center in the East.

I would still take Horford over him.

I'll admit that I have been very hard on Al since the beginning and he often has proven me wrong, but I don't think you can construct a story to give Horford the benefit of the doubt over Vucevic this season:

Nikola Vucevic (Orlando): 31,2 MPG / 20,2 PPG / 11,8 REB / 3,6 ASS / 2,1 TO / 1,0 ST / 1,1 BL  - Shooting: 52%/39%/82% and + 1,8 Net Rating.

Al Horford (Boston): 29,6 MPG / 12,0 PPG / 6,5 REB / 3,5 ASS / 1,5 TO / 0,8 ST / 1,6 BL  - Shooting: 49%/32%/70% and + 3,6 Net Rating.

Re: Vucevic Rental
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2018, 03:37:02 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Vucevic is easily the second best center in the East.

I would still take Horford over him.

Yeah, Vucevic is wildly overrated. He's putting up good numbers but for the most part it's just empty calories. He provides little impact on winning, and is an atrocious defender.

Horford, even slowed down a step, is still an immensely more valuable player.

Re: Vucevic Rental
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2018, 04:05:58 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Vucevic is easily the second best center in the East.

I would still take Horford over him.

I'll admit that I have been very hard on Al since the beginning and he often has proven me wrong, but I don't think you can construct a story to give Horford the benefit of the doubt over Vucevic this season:

Nikola Vucevic (Orlando): 31,2 MPG / 20,2 PPG / 11,8 REB / 3,6 ASS / 2,1 TO / 1,0 ST / 1,1 BL  - Shooting: 52%/39%/82% and + 1,8 Net Rating.

Al Horford (Boston): 29,6 MPG / 12,0 PPG / 6,5 REB / 3,5 ASS / 1,5 TO / 0,8 ST / 1,6 BL  - Shooting: 49%/32%/70% and + 3,6 Net Rating.

I think it’s fairly easy to argue for Al. You just include defense in your argument, along with looking at offensive usage.


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Re: Vucevic Rental
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2018, 04:11:05 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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It'd be great if we could put Vooch and Al together.  I doubt there's a package both teams would like, though.
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Re: Vucevic Rental
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2018, 04:23:54 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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Vucevic is easily the second best center in the East.

I would still take Horford over him.

Yeah, Vucevic is wildly overrated. He's putting up good numbers but for the most part it's just empty calories. He provides little impact on winning, and is an atrocious defender.

Horford, even slowed down a step, is still an immensely more valuable player.

TP to you.

When will people understand that stats are not 2k ratings. Generally, you can't do a comparison of stats to figure out who is the better player, especially when one player is on a winning team and one is on a losing team.

Because the Magic do not have another good option, they run all of their offense through him. The result is a lottery team. Sure, he puts up some good stats, but good stats on lottery teams does not mean he would have good stats on a good team, especially when his role changes and the offense doesn't run through him as much.

A great example of this is Spencer Hawes from when they Sixers started tanking. The Sixers were awful, but Hawes averaged 13 points, 9 rebounds, 3 assists, and 1 blocks. Everyone said, "Look! A stretch 5! Such and such a team would benefit from his presence greatly!"

3 years later, he was out of the league, having never made a significant dent in any winning team's rotation the rest of his career.

I think Vucevic is a better player than Hawes. I do think he can help a winning team, but there are definite parallels between Hawes and Vucevic. His ideal role on a winning team is very similar to Brook Lopez this year. He would stretch the floor, set picks outside, run hand-offs and the occasional backdoor, and rarely take advantage of mismatches inside. I think he can be better than Lopez, but his role would be similar. On a winning team, I'd expect his production to be less than Nurkic, because Nurkic is a much better defender, but better than Lopez, because Vucevic is a much better rebounder.

How likely is it that Vucevic would be willing to accept a lesser role like Lopez did? How likely is it that he would be as efficient in a lesser role? If he played for a winning team, wouldn't he be hunted by opposing offenses in the playoffs? I know Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, and Tatum would hunt him.

You can't hunt Horford in significant ways. I know he's not as good this year as he has been in previous years, but he's still a very versatile defender inside and outside. Horford has also been an integral part of top offenses in the NBA for the last decade. He knows how to play his role. He knows how to pick his spots. He knows how to play with the ball and without the ball.

Maybe Vucevic continues to add to his game and develop as a defender. If that happens, as Horford declines, there may come a point when Vucevic is better than Horford, but stats won't ever dictate that.

I would always rather have a guy that contributed to winning in the playoffs than an empty stat guy on a lottery team.

Re: Vucevic Rental
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2018, 04:56:58 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Vucevic is not just putting up empty stats per Lowe hey fall apart whenever he sits. Orlando has outscored opponents by 4.5 points per 100 possessions with Vucevic on the floor, but opponents have obliterated them by almost a dozen points per 100 possessions when he rests. The difference -- plus-16.2 -- is the 11th-fattest among all rotation players, per NBA.com.

Vucevic ranks seventh overall in player efficiency rating, snug between LeBron James and James Harden. Orlando is 12-13 against the toughest schedule of any Eastern Conference team so far. If they hang around .500, Vucevic may garner enough support for his first All-Star appearance. He's deserving.

Re: Vucevic Rental
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2018, 04:59:11 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Also this from the ringer https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/11/28/18116202/nikola-vucevic-orlando-magic-improvement

I mean no disrespect but I think the people not
Giving him respect this year have not really been watching him

Re: Vucevic Rental
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2018, 08:02:56 PM »

Offline Who

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I haven't been hot on Vucevic over the last few years but he has been awesome this year. He has developed his passing over the last two years to become a well above average passer. Then he added a 3 point shot to his repertoire. Adding to an already dangerous post game and midrange scorer ... making Vucevic one of the finest offensive centers in the league.

His offensive game is so impressive now that it makes up for his lousy defense. Making Vucevic a valuable starter (at last!).

Orlando have been relying heavily on him. I'd be shocked if Vucevic was available for anything near the low price that he was 12 months ago. I don't see Orlando moving him. I think they will want too much in return. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Orlando re-sign Vucevic in the summer. Furthermore, I cannot see Ainge sacrificing the long term assets it would now take to get Vucevic for a rental player. That would be a very bad long term decision.

Re: Vucevic Rental
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2018, 02:23:46 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Vucevic is easily the second best center in the East.

I would still take Horford over him.

Yeah, Vucevic is wildly overrated. He's putting up good numbers but for the most part it's just empty calories. He provides little impact on winning, and is an atrocious defender.

Horford, even slowed down a step, is still an immensely more valuable player.
The Magic are 17.4 points per 100 possession worse when Vucevic is on the bench.  That 17.4 is elite level of on/off.   And while he isn't a great defender, he does have by far the best DRTG on the Magic (he also has the best ORTG, putting him in rare company as a player that has both the best ORTG and DRTG on his team). 

It is hard to make the argument that he is an empty calorie player given that.

And whenever these come up, who is to say he would be a rental.  I see no reason why Boston couldn't bring him back.  Sure it depends on what he wants contract wise, but he is certainly worth and Boston would probably pay him at least what he is making this year.
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