Author Topic: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?  (Read 7382 times)

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Re: What will a package of brown get us
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2018, 07:35:46 AM »

Offline Green-18

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I understand he's still raw and young. But at the same time...something is missing. I'm not seeing a slow steady improvement, never mind a burst of improvement. He disappears in total much too often having no effect on the game. 

I'm hoping for a Victor Oladipo type of surge in the near future.
Brown had a giant burst of improvement last year. It's difficult to show much of an offensive improvement this year as he is being used exclusively as the 5th option on offense with the starters, which is the lineup he plays the most minutes with. He, along with everyone else, is still adjusting to their roles with a healthy Hayward and Irving being back on the team.

And he has definitely improved his defense this year as he is always given the other teams best offensive player to cover and does a stellar job. That doesn't even include the fact he has improved his handle for the second straight year and his passing is way better. He is making the right pass, on the money, almost every time he drives and is closed off for a layups.

Brown has been inconsistent but he has had to adjust more than any other player on the team. He went from a #1 or #2 offensive option last year to a #5 offensive option this year. But the kid is loaded with untapped potential. You don't trade him because he hasn't played like a superstar 15 games into this season. That's a hoorble over reaction move and one Danny Ainge would never make.

To the OP - Who's the other guy you're talking about...Rozier?

He's 22 years old, still raw, and yet has proved he can play at a high level in the playoffs.

It would be foolish to throw him away without getting something very valuable in return.

Precisely.

I wish I had been able to watch the first three quarters today, but couldn't cos of work...but from what I've heard, Brown played fantastic defense of Kawhii during those quarters. Brown has once again showed flashes this year on offense, sporting a cleaner stroke from three.

Down the stretch, Stevens probably went with Mook because of his size on defense against Kawhii and reliableness on offence. This is sensible for a team with finals aspirations - while Brown is far more talented, Mook has certain advantages. Brown is still just 22.
Oops.  Yes, rozier the other guy.  As for brown, we’ll come to a point soon where youth will no longer be used as a crutch for him.  His basketball IQ is crazy bad.  That’s not a good sign for a star.

You keep saying over and over again that Brown's BBIQ is low but just because you say it over and over again doesn't make it true. If his BBIQ was so low he would never have emerged as one of the best defenders in the league at 22. If his IQ was so low his handle and passing wouldn't have improved anywhere near that it has since his rookie year. If his IQ was so low he wouldn't be the best cutter to the basket off the ball on the team. If his IQ was so low he wouldn't be making the proper defensive switches nearly every time. Brown's BBIQ is just fine if not very good.
Let me restate.  Browns feel for the game is awful.  And I keep saying it because it’s true.  I don’t think it’s even a debatable point.

And people keep calling browna future star.  He and Mitchell are basically the same age and their planets apart in terms of skill.
It's completely debateable and I think you're completely wrong. He was exceptional last year playing a role he thrived in. He is being asked to play a completely different role this year and has the least amount of touches of the starting 5. He's just been forcing things which has led him to be inconsistent.

What are your thoughts on Rozier then?

I love Brown, and used to love Rozier, but this year Rozier has been stinking up the joint...
Rozier just isn't made to be a bench player. Even back in Louisville he always played best with the ball in his hands and s free reign with the ball. He has never shot well as a bench player. His best play came when he started all those games last year. He's just most successful as a high usage starting PG. I don't like him as a bench player. I think having the ball in his hands and controlling things masks a bunch of his deficiencies like not seeing the court well, not making great decisions and not being a very good passer. At this point you keep him for Kyrie injury insurance. Rozier is durable. Kyrie, not so much
Bench or not you could say the same thing about brown.  He’s not so good as a complimentary player.  And the point you’re missing is that neither is good enough to be a high usage player long term.
Brown was a terrific high usage player all last year as a #2 scoring option. He was also the best all around player on the team in the playoffs and scored 30+ twice. If all the players you love actually showed up to play in game 6 vs Cleveland, the C's would have been in the Finals. Know who showed up that night, Rozier and Brown.
Yeah, but they’ve both completely regressed and show no signs of any ability to adapt to their new roles. Brown has shown no ability to be a high usage player on a true contender is what I think droopdog was saying, and I can’t see how that’s a disagreeable point
What the hell was he last year? He was the best player on the team in the playoffs that was one quarter away from the Finals when he was a high usage player at 21 years old. If ANYONE showed up for game 6 against Cleveland besides Rozier and Brown, the C's were in the Finals. No one. Not Morris, Not Horford. Not Smart. Not Tatum. Not Baynes. No one showed up to play in that game but high usage players Rozier and Brown almost brought that team to a series clinching win. Everyone seems to remember game 7 and forget game 6. Fact is Boston should have closed that series out in 6 except only Brown and Rozier played well and they were excellent.

Well said nickagneta.  It's still too early to consider trading Jaylen in any deal that doesn't land a legit superstar.  I fully expect Danny to stay patient with this group.  The only thing that could change the timeline is dissension in the locker room.  Thus far I believe the group is committed to figuring things out without pointing fingers.   

I'm also starting to think that Jaylen's struggles might be partially due to overconfidence during the off-season, which in turn lead to a less focused training schedule.  His offensive game has never come naturally.  It's going to take a few more years of summer 2017 focus in order for him to reach his true potential.

The T-Mac videos and Pro-Am would lead you to believe that he had the same level of commitment, but I'm not convinced that this is the case.  Jaylen has had to work extremely hard to earn his spot up until now, so hopefully these struggles become a humbling experience in the long run.   

Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2018, 08:30:38 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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It would get Ainge ran out of town is what it would do.   Holy kneejerk reaction Batman!

Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2018, 08:34:15 AM »

Offline coco

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At this rate their value is at all time low.  I wouldn’t expect much value back.

Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2018, 11:24:38 AM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I used to think that come June/July 2019, maybe something like Brown + Rozier (S&T) OR Smart (12M) + Yabusele ($$$) + ALL the Picks could be something offered for Davis IF (big IF) he were to be made available.

But so far... yeah their value is at a low and won't even come close to a deal like that  :P

Hard to tell. I think Rozier alone could still get decent value if traded to a team like the Suns before the deadline (and it looked likely that they could extend him after this season) but ultimately it's probably not like this past summer where Rozier and/or Brown could have been dealt in a package for a legit star (like Leonard).
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 11:32:46 AM by Phantom255x »
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Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2018, 11:32:26 AM »

Offline Birdman

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Brown, Rozier and whatever to get Davis, do it!!!
C/PF-Horford, Baynes, Noel, Theis, Morris,
SF/SG- Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Semi, Clark
PG- Irving, Rozier, Larkin

Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2018, 12:10:25 PM »

Offline mctyson

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They should not trade Brown for anyone less that a top-20 player who is locked up for a few years...which means that is basically no one.


Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2018, 12:52:32 PM »

Offline KGBirdBias

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Brown's hands are too small and it's really hindering his ability to control the ball on shots, dribbling and dunks. Rozier needs a lot of mins to get into a groove...that's not happening here.

To Magic - Brown, Rozier, Theis and a pick.

To Celtics - Vucevic and Gordon. Gordon is already signed for 4 yrs.

Let Jabari Bird go and sign Courtney Lee

Vucevic
Horford
Tatum
Hayward
Irving

Smart
Lee
Semi
Gordon
Baynes/Williams

Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2018, 12:57:04 PM »

Offline knuckleballer

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They should not trade Brown for anyone less that a top-20 player who is locked up for a few years...which means that is basically no one.

This.

Regarding Rozier, I'm coming around to the idea of trading him.  I was of the belief that we should keep him as Kyrie insurance, but now I don't think we would get past all three of Toronto, Philly, and Milwaukee without Kyrie any way.  I'd rather have a pass first pg than Rozier at this point who can get other guys in position and distribute the ball.  Rozier is hurting us and I don't see it improving.

Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2018, 01:05:24 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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Brown's hands are too small and it's really hindering his ability to control the ball on shots, dribbling and dunks. Rozier needs a lot of mins to get into a groove...that's not happening here.

To Magic - Brown, Rozier, Theis and a pick.

To Celtics - Vucevic and Gordon. Gordon is already signed for 4 yrs.

Let Jabari Bird go and sign Courtney Lee

Vucevic
Horford
Tatum
Hayward
Irving

Smart
Lee
Semi
Gordon
Baynes/Williams

This Jabari issue is certainly taking a long time to get resolved. The holdup is leaving us with a roster spot in limbo. The NBA should have made a decision on this already.

Re: What will a package of brown get us
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2018, 01:35:01 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I understand he's still raw and young. But at the same time...something is missing. I'm not seeing a slow steady improvement, never mind a burst of improvement. He disappears in total much too often having no effect on the game. 

I'm hoping for a Victor Oladipo type of surge in the near future.
Brown had a giant burst of improvement last year. It's difficult to show much of an offensive improvement this year as he is being used exclusively as the 5th option on offense with the starters, which is the lineup he plays the most minutes with. He, along with everyone else, is still adjusting to their roles with a healthy Hayward and Irving being back on the team.

And he has definitely improved his defense this year as he is always given the other teams best offensive player to cover and does a stellar job. That doesn't even include the fact he has improved his handle for the second straight year and his passing is way better. He is making the right pass, on the money, almost every time he drives and is closed off for a layups.

Brown has been inconsistent but he has had to adjust more than any other player on the team. He went from a #1 or #2 offensive option last year to a #5 offensive option this year. But the kid is loaded with untapped potential. You don't trade him because he hasn't played like a superstar 15 games into this season. That's a hoorble over reaction move and one Danny Ainge would never make.

To the OP - Who's the other guy you're talking about...Rozier?

He's 22 years old, still raw, and yet has proved he can play at a high level in the playoffs.

It would be foolish to throw him away without getting something very valuable in return.

Precisely.

I wish I had been able to watch the first three quarters today, but couldn't cos of work...but from what I've heard, Brown played fantastic defense of Kawhii during those quarters. Brown has once again showed flashes this year on offense, sporting a cleaner stroke from three.

Down the stretch, Stevens probably went with Mook because of his size on defense against Kawhii and reliableness on offence. This is sensible for a team with finals aspirations - while Brown is far more talented, Mook has certain advantages. Brown is still just 22.
Oops.  Yes, rozier the other guy.  As for brown, we’ll come to a point soon where youth will no longer be used as a crutch for him.  His basketball IQ is crazy bad.  That’s not a good sign for a star.

You keep saying over and over again that Brown's BBIQ is low but just because you say it over and over again doesn't make it true. If his BBIQ was so low he would never have emerged as one of the best defenders in the league at 22. If his IQ was so low his handle and passing wouldn't have improved anywhere near that it has since his rookie year. If his IQ was so low he wouldn't be the best cutter to the basket off the ball on the team. If his IQ was so low he wouldn't be making the proper defensive switches nearly every time. Brown's BBIQ is just fine if not very good.
Let me restate.  Browns feel for the game is awful.  And I keep saying it because it’s true.  I don’t think it’s even a debatable point.

And people keep calling browna future star.  He and Mitchell are basically the same age and their planets apart in terms of skill.
It's completely debateable and I think you're completely wrong. He was exceptional last year playing a role he thrived in. He is being asked to play a completely different role this year and has the least amount of touches of the starting 5. He's just been forcing things which has led him to be inconsistent.
I don't know about touches, but he has more shots then both Hayward and Horford.  He also has more attempts per game then he had last year.  Irving is the guy whose attempts are lower than last year.  And even things like USG aren't much different than last year.  The touches are there for Brown, he just isn't utilizing them.
https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/

Just scroll down

Kyrie 73.2
Horford 53.6
Tatum 45.3
Hayward 44.1
Morris 39
Smart 34.7
Brown 30.1
 
Last year Brown 38.9 touches

Last year touches in playoffs Brown 44.9
 
He is touching the ball nearly 25% less than last season and 33% less than last he played in the playoffs. It's pretty obvious he is forcing things and they using him as a #5 offensive option.

Re: What will a package of brown get us
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2018, 01:38:57 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I understand he's still raw and young. But at the same time...something is missing. I'm not seeing a slow steady improvement, never mind a burst of improvement. He disappears in total much too often having no effect on the game. 

I'm hoping for a Victor Oladipo type of surge in the near future.
Brown had a giant burst of improvement last year. It's difficult to show much of an offensive improvement this year as he is being used exclusively as the 5th option on offense with the starters, which is the lineup he plays the most minutes with. He, along with everyone else, is still adjusting to their roles with a healthy Hayward and Irving being back on the team.

And he has definitely improved his defense this year as he is always given the other teams best offensive player to cover and does a stellar job. That doesn't even include the fact he has improved his handle for the second straight year and his passing is way better. He is making the right pass, on the money, almost every time he drives and is closed off for a layups.

Brown has been inconsistent but he has had to adjust more than any other player on the team. He went from a #1 or #2 offensive option last year to a #5 offensive option this year. But the kid is loaded with untapped potential. You don't trade him because he hasn't played like a superstar 15 games into this season. That's a hoorble over reaction move and one Danny Ainge would never make.

To the OP - Who's the other guy you're talking about...Rozier?

He's 22 years old, still raw, and yet has proved he can play at a high level in the playoffs.

It would be foolish to throw him away without getting something very valuable in return.

Precisely.

I wish I had been able to watch the first three quarters today, but couldn't cos of work...but from what I've heard, Brown played fantastic defense of Kawhii during those quarters. Brown has once again showed flashes this year on offense, sporting a cleaner stroke from three.

Down the stretch, Stevens probably went with Mook because of his size on defense against Kawhii and reliableness on offence. This is sensible for a team with finals aspirations - while Brown is far more talented, Mook has certain advantages. Brown is still just 22.
Oops.  Yes, rozier the other guy.  As for brown, we’ll come to a point soon where youth will no longer be used as a crutch for him.  His basketball IQ is crazy bad.  That’s not a good sign for a star.

You keep saying over and over again that Brown's BBIQ is low but just because you say it over and over again doesn't make it true. If his BBIQ was so low he would never have emerged as one of the best defenders in the league at 22. If his IQ was so low his handle and passing wouldn't have improved anywhere near that it has since his rookie year. If his IQ was so low he wouldn't be the best cutter to the basket off the ball on the team. If his IQ was so low he wouldn't be making the proper defensive switches nearly every time. Brown's BBIQ is just fine if not very good.
Let me restate.  Browns feel for the game is awful.  And I keep saying it because it’s true.  I don’t think it’s even a debatable point.

And people keep calling browna future star.  He and Mitchell are basically the same age and their planets apart in terms of skill.
It's completely debateable and I think you're completely wrong. He was exceptional last year playing a role he thrived in. He is being asked to play a completely different role this year and has the least amount of touches of the starting 5. He's just been forcing things which has led him to be inconsistent.
I don't know about touches, but he has more shots then both Hayward and Horford.  He also has more attempts per game then he had last year.  Irving is the guy whose attempts are lower than last year.  And even things like USG aren't much different than last year.  The touches are there for Brown, he just isn't utilizing them.
Exactly. His FGA is up by the smallest amount and he's even playing almost 2 less minutes than last season. However, his splits are truly abysmal. 36/27/65 are worse numbers than Smart's over his entire career.
So because he is in an obvious shooting slump he has a low BBIQ. Smart has had horrible shooting stats his whole career, does that mean he has a low BBIQ

Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #56 on: November 18, 2018, 02:01:08 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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right now ... box of Krispy Keme Donuts and couple coffees  :P

Re: What will a package of brown get us
« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2018, 04:32:40 PM »

Offline gouki88

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I understand he's still raw and young. But at the same time...something is missing. I'm not seeing a slow steady improvement, never mind a burst of improvement. He disappears in total much too often having no effect on the game. 

I'm hoping for a Victor Oladipo type of surge in the near future.
Brown had a giant burst of improvement last year. It's difficult to show much of an offensive improvement this year as he is being used exclusively as the 5th option on offense with the starters, which is the lineup he plays the most minutes with. He, along with everyone else, is still adjusting to their roles with a healthy Hayward and Irving being back on the team.

And he has definitely improved his defense this year as he is always given the other teams best offensive player to cover and does a stellar job. That doesn't even include the fact he has improved his handle for the second straight year and his passing is way better. He is making the right pass, on the money, almost every time he drives and is closed off for a layups.

Brown has been inconsistent but he has had to adjust more than any other player on the team. He went from a #1 or #2 offensive option last year to a #5 offensive option this year. But the kid is loaded with untapped potential. You don't trade him because he hasn't played like a superstar 15 games into this season. That's a hoorble over reaction move and one Danny Ainge would never make.

To the OP - Who's the other guy you're talking about...Rozier?

He's 22 years old, still raw, and yet has proved he can play at a high level in the playoffs.

It would be foolish to throw him away without getting something very valuable in return.

Precisely.

I wish I had been able to watch the first three quarters today, but couldn't cos of work...but from what I've heard, Brown played fantastic defense of Kawhii during those quarters. Brown has once again showed flashes this year on offense, sporting a cleaner stroke from three.

Down the stretch, Stevens probably went with Mook because of his size on defense against Kawhii and reliableness on offence. This is sensible for a team with finals aspirations - while Brown is far more talented, Mook has certain advantages. Brown is still just 22.
Oops.  Yes, rozier the other guy.  As for brown, we’ll come to a point soon where youth will no longer be used as a crutch for him.  His basketball IQ is crazy bad.  That’s not a good sign for a star.

You keep saying over and over again that Brown's BBIQ is low but just because you say it over and over again doesn't make it true. If his BBIQ was so low he would never have emerged as one of the best defenders in the league at 22. If his IQ was so low his handle and passing wouldn't have improved anywhere near that it has since his rookie year. If his IQ was so low he wouldn't be the best cutter to the basket off the ball on the team. If his IQ was so low he wouldn't be making the proper defensive switches nearly every time. Brown's BBIQ is just fine if not very good.
Let me restate.  Browns feel for the game is awful.  And I keep saying it because it’s true.  I don’t think it’s even a debatable point.

And people keep calling browna future star.  He and Mitchell are basically the same age and their planets apart in terms of skill.
It's completely debateable and I think you're completely wrong. He was exceptional last year playing a role he thrived in. He is being asked to play a completely different role this year and has the least amount of touches of the starting 5. He's just been forcing things which has led him to be inconsistent.
I don't know about touches, but he has more shots then both Hayward and Horford.  He also has more attempts per game then he had last year.  Irving is the guy whose attempts are lower than last year.  And even things like USG aren't much different than last year.  The touches are there for Brown, he just isn't utilizing them.
Exactly. His FGA is up by the smallest amount and he's even playing almost 2 less minutes than last season. However, his splits are truly abysmal. 36/27/65 are worse numbers than Smart's over his entire career.
So because he is in an obvious shooting slump he has a low BBIQ. Smart has had horrible shooting stats his whole career, does that mean he has a low BBIQ
No, but I think there is a definite distinction to be made between offensive BBIQ and defensive BBIQ. If Brown had any ability to make plays for others like Smart does he’d cop a lot less flak. However, he has almost no playmaking ability, due to his low offensive BBIQ. He constantly misreads defences and takes pretty low quality shots. Last season he showed he had the talent to make plenty of those shots, but considering the slump he’s in his other flaws are more exposed.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2018, 04:38:04 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Brown's hands are too small and it's really hindering his ability to control the ball on shots, dribbling and dunks. Rozier needs a lot of mins to get into a groove...that's not happening here.

To Magic - Brown, Rozier, Theis and a pick.

To Celtics - Vucevic and Gordon. Gordon is already signed for 4 yrs.

Let Jabari Bird go and sign Courtney Lee

Vucevic
Horford
Tatum
Hayward
Irving

Smart
Lee
Semi
Gordon
Baynes/Williams
Don’t know if the Magic go for it, but this deal makes us a lot better. I’d probably rather Vuce off the bench where he could have the whole offence ran through him, and start either Baynes or Gordon, but that would make us very hard to stop.

The Bird situation is a complete mess. Hopefully resolved soon
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: What will a package of brown and rozier get us?
« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2018, 05:14:04 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Brown's hands are too small and it's really hindering his ability to control the ball on shots, dribbling and dunks. Rozier needs a lot of mins to get into a groove...that's not happening here.

To Magic - Brown, Rozier, Theis and a pick.

To Celtics - Vucevic and Gordon. Gordon is already signed for 4 yrs.

Let Jabari Bird go and sign Courtney Lee

Vucevic
Horford
Tatum
Hayward
Irving

Smart
Lee
Semi
Gordon
Baynes/Williams
Don’t know if the Magic go for it, but this deal makes us a lot better. I’d probably rather Vuce off the bench where he could have the whole offence ran through him, and start either Baynes or Gordon, but that would make us very hard to stop.

The Bird situation is a complete mess. Hopefully resolved soon
Doesn't matter if Magic would go for it the salaries aren't even close to matching. Orlando $33 million. Boston $9.5 million