Is Shohei having the greatest individual season we've ever seen?

[Neurotic Guy]

Pro sports are a unique form of entertainment. Literature, music, theater, painting… are all free ranging arts. Would anyone think less of an artist’s work if they used performance-enhancers?  I don’t think so.  In some ways, in the arts, don’t we want the enhanced performance influenced by any sort of chemical boost - boost to energy, boost to creativity….
Of course, entertainment is in the eye of the beholder - we all get to decide for ourselves what entertains us - but for many, pro sports requires some legitimacy to be fully entertaining.  Put aside wrestling which is mostly theater, the major sports rely on at least a semblance of fairness and equality that makes the competition intriguing enough to want to keep watching.  When Bonds, Macguire, and Sosa were hitting more home runs than had ever been hit before, it was fascinating. It was even fascinating to me, a long-time non-baseball fan. But what is interesting is that during that time I was still not a baseball fan. I didn’t watch games; I didn’t root for any teams. But… I watched highlights every night and closely followed the HR competition occurring among these players and with history.

Not sure what this means for whether it was good or bad for baseball. But I’m sure it was good for entertainment despite the pall of illegitimacy that hovers over that era.

[kraidstar]

If we’re going purely based on stats you’d have to take Bonds’ 73 home run season.  That was insane.  Or maybe even the season after where they were intentionally walking him twice a game.  He slugged over a thousand and was on base at a stupid clip.  Too lazy to look up the numbers.

He was so flagrantly jacked on roids that those numbers are pretty irrelevant to me.

It's a tangent, but I still tip my cap to Bonds for the impressiveness of the feat, even while cheating.  The fact is, *a lot* of people were cheating, and Bonds stood head and shoulders above them, even though he was past his prime.  And, there's a narrative that all Bonds was doing was leveling the playing field after becoming disenchanted by seeing other, lesser cheaters dominating the sport and making him look less impressive by comparison.

And also, I can't cognitively distort my thinking enough to condemn Bonds, but still support guys like Clemens and Papi.

Not disagreeing with your post, but Papi has no business being mentioned in there. None.

Eh.  Clemens never failed a drug test.  Papi did.

Roger's wife was roiding tho lol

Oh, I have no doubt her used.  I have no doubt about Papi, either.  And they're both among my all-time favorite players.  Manny, too.

We're getting far beyond SO, but I'm sure designer drugs that are ahead of testing requirements are rampant in sports.

I agree. What always rubbed me the wrong way about that era was their self-righteousness and hubris. Lying in front of congress. Blaming racism (Ryan Braun in particular was despicable for doing this).  Blaming everyone but themselves and the culture of the sport at large.

It's not Bonds' fault that he and his peers made a mockery of baseball's historical stats. They were competing in a tainted sport. But the way they, Lance Armstrong etc handled it makes me glad they've become pariahs.

I don't hear anyone hating on Pettite, Papi, Giambi. That's because they mostly shut their mouths.

If LeBron ever gets caught I'd bet the farm he goes the Bonds/Clemens route and torpedoes whatever remains of his reputation.

[Moranis]

If we’re going purely based on stats you’d have to take Bonds’ 73 home run season.  That was insane.  Or maybe even the season after where they were intentionally walking him twice a game.  He slugged over a thousand and was on base at a stupid clip.  Too lazy to look up the numbers.

He was so flagrantly jacked on roids that those numbers are pretty irrelevant to me.

It's a tangent, but I still tip my cap to Bonds for the impressiveness of the feat, even while cheating.  The fact is, *a lot* of people were cheating, and Bonds stood head and shoulders above them, even though he was past his prime.  And, there's a narrative that all Bonds was doing was leveling the playing field after becoming disenchanted by seeing other, lesser cheaters dominating the sport and making him look less impressive by comparison.

And also, I can't cognitively distort my thinking enough to condemn Bonds, but still support guys like Clemens and Papi.

What Bonds did looked unnatural to me both then and now. He was dominant but i can't bring myself to compare him to other historical figures.

well it was unnatural, but so was basically everyone. At other times speed was the drug of choice (including guys like Mays).  Spit balls, pine tar, stealing signs, etc.  The adage if you ain't cheating you ain't trying is basically baseball's tag line, which is why all the steroid stuff is just pure and utter nonsense.  Baseball was born on cheating.  Heck steroids weren't even banned by the sport until after guys like Bonds retires.

Were guys mashing 70 home runs on greenies? That comparison is a joke. Barry Bonds literally looks like an ogre from Lord of the Rings.

Amphetamines cannot and will not give the advantages of the hardcore stuff Bonds and his ilk were on.

players used speed to play at all.  It got them through the long season.  Still an illegal advantage but does a different thing.  But you see that is the hypocrisy, cheating is cheating, or it isn't cheating at all since that is what baseball is born out of.  If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.  And based in testing results, pitchers used roids more than hitters.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

MLB knew what was going on with PEDs but allowed it because PEDs — specifically the McGwire-Sosa race of ‘98 — saved baseball after the disastrous strike in ‘94, so I think that MLB/writers/fans holding a grudge against any of those guys is completely disingenuous and hypocritical. Baseball was pretty much dead in the water, and no one “in the know” at that time had a problem with what those guys were doing, but they then turned around and treated them like pariahs. Complete hypocrisy.

[Kernewek]

MLB knew what was going on with PEDs but allowed it because PEDs — specifically the McGwire-Sosa race of ‘98 — saved baseball after the disastrous strike in ‘94, so I think that MLB/writers/fans holding a grudge against any of those guys is completely disingenuous and hypocritical. Baseball was pretty much dead in the water, and no one “in the know” at that time had a problem with what those guys were doing, but they then turned around and treated them like pariahs. Complete hypocrisy.

100% correct post.

[kraidstar]

If we’re going purely based on stats you’d have to take Bonds’ 73 home run season.  That was insane.  Or maybe even the season after where they were intentionally walking him twice a game.  He slugged over a thousand and was on base at a stupid clip.  Too lazy to look up the numbers.

He was so flagrantly jacked on roids that those numbers are pretty irrelevant to me.

It's a tangent, but I still tip my cap to Bonds for the impressiveness of the feat, even while cheating.  The fact is, *a lot* of people were cheating, and Bonds stood head and shoulders above them, even though he was past his prime.  And, there's a narrative that all Bonds was doing was leveling the playing field after becoming disenchanted by seeing other, lesser cheaters dominating the sport and making him look less impressive by comparison.

And also, I can't cognitively distort my thinking enough to condemn Bonds, but still support guys like Clemens and Papi.

What Bonds did looked unnatural to me both then and now. He was dominant but i can't bring myself to compare him to other historical figures.

well it was unnatural, but so was basically everyone. At other times speed was the drug of choice (including guys like Mays).  Spit balls, pine tar, stealing signs, etc.  The adage if you ain't cheating you ain't trying is basically baseball's tag line, which is why all the steroid stuff is just pure and utter nonsense.  Baseball was born on cheating.  Heck steroids weren't even banned by the sport until after guys like Bonds retires.

Were guys mashing 70 home runs on greenies? That comparison is a joke. Barry Bonds literally looks like an ogre from Lord of the Rings.

Amphetamines cannot and will not give the advantages of the hardcore stuff Bonds and his ilk were on.

players used speed to play at all.  It got them through the long season.  Still an illegal advantage but does a different thing.  But you see that is the hypocrisy, cheating is cheating, or it isn't cheating at all since that is what baseball is born out of.  If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.  And based in testing results, pitchers used roids more than hitters.

There's a difference between a 5mph speeding ticket vs a 50mph speeding ticket. Just like there's a difference between assault and murder. You're undoubtedly a smart, thoughtful guy. I know you know the difference.

[Moranis]

If we’re going purely based on stats you’d have to take Bonds’ 73 home run season.  That was insane.  Or maybe even the season after where they were intentionally walking him twice a game.  He slugged over a thousand and was on base at a stupid clip.  Too lazy to look up the numbers.

He was so flagrantly jacked on roids that those numbers are pretty irrelevant to me.

It's a tangent, but I still tip my cap to Bonds for the impressiveness of the feat, even while cheating.  The fact is, *a lot* of people were cheating, and Bonds stood head and shoulders above them, even though he was past his prime.  And, there's a narrative that all Bonds was doing was leveling the playing field after becoming disenchanted by seeing other, lesser cheaters dominating the sport and making him look less impressive by comparison.

And also, I can't cognitively distort my thinking enough to condemn Bonds, but still support guys like Clemens and Papi.

What Bonds did looked unnatural to me both then and now. He was dominant but i can't bring myself to compare him to other historical figures.

well it was unnatural, but so was basically everyone. At other times speed was the drug of choice (including guys like Mays).  Spit balls, pine tar, stealing signs, etc.  The adage if you ain't cheating you ain't trying is basically baseball's tag line, which is why all the steroid stuff is just pure and utter nonsense.  Baseball was born on cheating.  Heck steroids weren't even banned by the sport until after guys like Bonds retires.

Were guys mashing 70 home runs on greenies? That comparison is a joke. Barry Bonds literally looks like an ogre from Lord of the Rings.

Amphetamines cannot and will not give the advantages of the hardcore stuff Bonds and his ilk were on.

players used speed to play at all.  It got them through the long season.  Still an illegal advantage but does a different thing.  But you see that is the hypocrisy, cheating is cheating, or it isn't cheating at all since that is what baseball is born out of.  If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.  And based in testing results, pitchers used roids more than hitters.

There's a difference between a 5mph speeding ticket vs a 50mph speeding ticket. Just like there's a difference between assault and murder. You're undoubtedly a smart, thoughtful guy. I know you know the difference.

I don't actually see the difference here.  You are taking an illegal, though not banned, substance to give you an advantage.  Even the smallest advantage can be the difference between winning and losing.  Staying on the field or getting cut. 

[byennie]

I'm late to the party here, but my take is that SO is *very* close. Obviously the two-way play is a unique advantage, but consider:

He's on pace for a 7-8 WAR season at a hitter. That's low-MVP level. Even if you aren't a fan of WAR it pretty much checks out, since he's on pace for .300/59/120 and leading the league in OPS and total bases, but without any fielding value.

Then, he's on pace for 4-5 WAR as a pitcher. That's a fringe All-Star, which sounds about right.

Add it up and he's roughly a 12 WAR player, which is very, very close to All-Time best. In fact, he might top everyone not named Babe Ruth this year (https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_season.shtml). Right around the mega Barry Bonds seasons.

It's a little hard to quantify how the 2 position factor should affect his rating, but consider this. He's fully capable of putting up 15 combined WAR in a season. At that point, he's blown everyone away by the best metric available. Imagine if they let him actually throw 200+ innings and play the field one year...

[Moranis]

I'm late to the party here, but my take is that SO is *very* close. Obviously the two-way play is a unique advantage, but consider:

He's on pace for a 7-8 WAR season at a hitter. That's low-MVP level. Even if you aren't a fan of WAR it pretty much checks out, since he's on pace for .300/59/120 and leading the league in OPS and total bases, but without any fielding value.

Then, he's on pace for 4-5 WAR as a pitcher. That's a fringe All-Star, which sounds about right.

Add it up and he's roughly a 12 WAR player, which is very, very close to All-Time best. In fact, he might top everyone not named Babe Ruth this year (https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_season.shtml). Right around the mega Barry Bonds seasons.

It's a little hard to quantify how the 2 position factor should affect his rating, but consider this. He's fully capable of putting up 15 combined WAR in a season. At that point, he's blown everyone away by the best metric available. Imagine if they let him actually throw 200+ innings and play the field one year...

I mentioned the WAR stuff before the steroid talk.  Walter Johnson had an amazing 4 year WAR stretch, but back then they pitched so often and he was so dominant no one will come close to that again.  He was also a decent hitter and added some WAR that way.  Ruth had 3 seasons via WAR that will likely eclipse Shohei this season, but Shohei is going to be in that ball park if he keeps his pace up.  So it isn't crazy talk at all, especially given how the game has changed.

[Roy H.]

I'm late to the party here, but my take is that SO is *very* close. Obviously the two-way play is a unique advantage, but consider:

He's on pace for a 7-8 WAR season at a hitter. That's low-MVP level. Even if you aren't a fan of WAR it pretty much checks out, since he's on pace for .300/59/120 and leading the league in OPS and total bases, but without any fielding value.

Then, he's on pace for 4-5 WAR as a pitcher. That's a fringe All-Star, which sounds about right.

Add it up and he's roughly a 12 WAR player, which is very, very close to All-Time best. In fact, he might top everyone not named Babe Ruth this year (https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_season.shtml). Right around the mega Barry Bonds seasons.

It's a little hard to quantify how the 2 position factor should affect his rating, but consider this. He's fully capable of putting up 15 combined WAR in a season. At that point, he's blown everyone away by the best metric available. Imagine if they let him actually throw 200+ innings and play the field one year...

A few speculated up-thread about how the wear and tear of playing the outfield would impact pitchers.  I'm not 100% sure I buy it, but for whatever reason no team in MLB history has played a player both as a full-time pitcher and full-time position player.  Are they being overly cautious?

[Moranis]

Strider K'd Ohtani for his 200th strikeout of the year.  Breaking his own record as the fewest innings to hit 200 K's in a season at 123.33 innings.  Last year he passed Randy Johnson to set the record at 130 innings, and he blew past it this year.  He ended the game with 208 on the season.  Yesterday, Harris went up and robbed Ohtani of his 40th HR.  I know those aren't really things necessarily the best for this thread, but it seemed like as good of any to put it. 

[Moranis]

Obviously him getting hurt changed this, but Acuna is pretty quietly having one of the best seasons ever.  Last night he became just the 5th player to hit 40 HR and steal 40 SB (Canseco, Bonds, ARod, Soriano). Earlier this year he became the only 30/60 player and is obviously the onlynl 40/60 player and is in fact the only 40/50 player.  He is 2 SB away from 70.

[tonydelk]

Obviously him getting hurt changed this, but Acuna is pretty quietly having one of the best seasons ever.  Last night he became just the 5th player to hit 40 HR and steal 40 SB (Canseco, Bonds, ARod, Soriano). Earlier this year he became the only 30/60 player and is obviously the onlynl 40/60 player and is in fact the only 40/50 player.  He is 2 SB away from 70.

Plus he has 140 runs, over 100 rbis, hitting .335 and about as many walks as strikeouts.  Absolutely one of the greatest seasons ever.  Those are video game numbers.

[ETNCeltics]

Acuna leads the NL in runs, hits SBs, OBP, OPS, total bases, 2nd in BA,  4th in HR, 7th in RBIs (even though he's the leadoff hitter), 8th in doubles.

[Moranis]

Even with Shohei getting hurt he did stilln lead the league in WAR at 10.1. Had he finished out the year hitting and pitching he would have had a WAR that would have put him in the range of the other all time great individual seasons