Author Topic: David Ortiz elected to Hall of Fame  (Read 13410 times)

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Re: David Ortiz elected to Hall of Fame
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2022, 12:19:47 PM »

Offline greg683x

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Does anybody differentiate between PEDs vs. steroids vs. HGN?

Take a guy like Clemens.  Let's say he took steroid shots.  Steroids don't make you stronger.  Rather, they help your body heal faster.  That's obviously helpful as regarding injuries, but it also makes it so guys can lift more often.  They still have to put in the work, though.  If you're not lifting and working out, all steroids are going to do is make you fat and puffy.  Clemens was a workout machine.

HGN, on the other hand, helps build muscle mass without the insane workouts, from what I understand.  It also can improve eye sight / coordination.  To me, while both are bad, HGN is worse, because it's a shortcut.

I frankly think that some sort of steroid use should be legal in sports.  There are side effects, but the healing effects carry substantial benefit.  If a drug like that is going to cut months off of an athlete's recovery time, or make them less likely to get severely injured in the first place, I'd let all of these guys do them under a doctor's care.

Look at Rogers numbers the last 3-4 seasons in Boston, then look at his numbers the two following seasons in Toronto when Mcname testified he started Clemens on roids.  His numbers arenít terrible those last couple seasons in Boston but in Toronto out of nowhere he has the two best seasons of his career, putting up numbers he hasnít flirted with in 12 years.

I just canít buy that all the steroids had to do with this is help him recover faster after workouts

Why?  He was healthy, and he was in shape.

The man still went out there and pitched.  His workouts are legendary.  Steroids allowed him to be his healthiest and to workout at an insane pace.

Like I said, give a lazy dude steroids and all thatís going to happen is theyíll be bloated and angry, with smaller testicles and a lot of acne.
There are several different types of steroids.  The ones the players used most frequently were not used for recovery, but for bulk and mass.  Some players of course used the ones more similar to cortisone and things like that, but by and large they were using the anabolic steroids which helped them create muscle mass and more strength, power, etc.

The Mayo Clinic did a pretty good job of describing all of the various forms of PED's including steroids, Andro, HGH, diuretics, stimulants, etc. 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/fitness/in-depth/performance-enhancing-drugs/art-20046134

I just don't think anyone should be picking and choosing which of those are ok to get you into the HOF and which ones are not ok, or which ones may be ok if you are well liked or not only slightly linked.  There should be no gray area, either kick basically everyone out, or just let everyone in (who is otherwise deserving based on accomplishments).

I think there can be a grey area.

I can look at Bonds and Clemens and acknowledge that they were hall of fame players before they used.

I can say the same about Willie Mays and Hank Aaron like you mentioned, what they took might have given them an edge but they are still hall of fame players without that edge.

I can also look at players like Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Juan Gonzalez, etc.  and know that they would not be in the hall of fame if they didnít use. Good players but not hall of fame worthy

Yes it leaves a lot to speculation and opinion but I think most unbiased and reasonable people who follow the sport can make good judgements on all of this.
Greg

Re: David Ortiz elected to Hall of Fame
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2022, 12:26:42 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Does anybody differentiate between PEDs vs. steroids vs. HGN?

Take a guy like Clemens.  Let's say he took steroid shots.  Steroids don't make you stronger.  Rather, they help your body heal faster.  That's obviously helpful as regarding injuries, but it also makes it so guys can lift more often.  They still have to put in the work, though.  If you're not lifting and working out, all steroids are going to do is make you fat and puffy.  Clemens was a workout machine.

HGN, on the other hand, helps build muscle mass without the insane workouts, from what I understand.  It also can improve eye sight / coordination.  To me, while both are bad, HGN is worse, because it's a shortcut.

I frankly think that some sort of steroid use should be legal in sports.  There are side effects, but the healing effects carry substantial benefit.  If a drug like that is going to cut months off of an athlete's recovery time, or make them less likely to get severely injured in the first place, I'd let all of these guys do them under a doctor's care.

Look at Rogers numbers the last 3-4 seasons in Boston, then look at his numbers the two following seasons in Toronto when Mcname testified he started Clemens on roids.  His numbers arenít terrible those last couple seasons in Boston but in Toronto out of nowhere he has the two best seasons of his career, putting up numbers he hasnít flirted with in 12 years.

I just canít buy that all the steroids had to do with this is help him recover faster after workouts

Why?  He was healthy, and he was in shape.

The man still went out there and pitched.  His workouts are legendary.  Steroids allowed him to be his healthiest and to workout at an insane pace.

Like I said, give a lazy dude steroids and all thatís going to happen is theyíll be bloated and angry, with smaller testicles and a lot of acne.

Iím sorry I just canít buy that Clemens, And Bonds for that matter, had this massive resurgence at the tail end of their careers and it was solely because of workout recovery.

Bonds used more than steroids, reportedly, and his body transformed massively.  I'm sure he worked out a lot, but I think he also got some artificial muscle growth as well.

That said, with Bonds it wasn't so much a resurgence.  He was a pretty consistent 30 - 40 HR hitter most of his career and averaged around .290 - .310.  He was arguably a top-five outfielder of all-time before he took a single injection.  He never really dipped.  Rather, it was a transformation into a totally different player.  He boosted his HRs and walks, while stealing very few bases and not a lot of defense.   

His PED use was just so obvious to everyone.  And yet...  the same baseball writers who are keeping him out of the Hall of Fame are the same ones who voted him MVP four times in his steroid years.



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Re: David Ortiz elected to Hall of Fame
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2022, 12:31:12 PM »

Offline greg683x

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Does anybody differentiate between PEDs vs. steroids vs. HGN?

Take a guy like Clemens.  Let's say he took steroid shots.  Steroids don't make you stronger.  Rather, they help your body heal faster.  That's obviously helpful as regarding injuries, but it also makes it so guys can lift more often.  They still have to put in the work, though.  If you're not lifting and working out, all steroids are going to do is make you fat and puffy.  Clemens was a workout machine.

HGN, on the other hand, helps build muscle mass without the insane workouts, from what I understand.  It also can improve eye sight / coordination.  To me, while both are bad, HGN is worse, because it's a shortcut.

I frankly think that some sort of steroid use should be legal in sports.  There are side effects, but the healing effects carry substantial benefit.  If a drug like that is going to cut months off of an athlete's recovery time, or make them less likely to get severely injured in the first place, I'd let all of these guys do them under a doctor's care.

Look at Rogers numbers the last 3-4 seasons in Boston, then look at his numbers the two following seasons in Toronto when Mcname testified he started Clemens on roids.  His numbers arenít terrible those last couple seasons in Boston but in Toronto out of nowhere he has the two best seasons of his career, putting up numbers he hasnít flirted with in 12 years.

I just canít buy that all the steroids had to do with this is help him recover faster after workouts

Why?  He was healthy, and he was in shape.

The man still went out there and pitched.  His workouts are legendary.  Steroids allowed him to be his healthiest and to workout at an insane pace.

Like I said, give a lazy dude steroids and all thatís going to happen is theyíll be bloated and angry, with smaller testicles and a lot of acne.

Iím sorry I just canít buy that Clemens, And Bonds for that matter, had this massive resurgence at the tail end of their careers and it was solely because of workout recovery.

Bonds used more than steroids, reportedly, and his body transformed massively.  I'm sure he worked out a lot, but I think he also got some artificial muscle growth as well.

That said, with Bonds it wasn't so much a resurgence.  He was a pretty consistent 30 - 40 HR hitter most of his career and averaged around .290 - .310.  He never really dipped.  Rather, it was a transformation into a totally different player.  He boosted his HRs and walks, while stealing very few bases and not a lot of defense.   

His PED use was just so obvious to everyone.  And yet...  the same baseball writers who are keeping him out of the Hall of Fame are the same ones who voted him MVP four times in his steroid years.

I have no problem acknowledging that both Bonds and Clemens were hall of fame players before they used.  I suppose thatís why the both of them irritate me so much, especially Bonds.  It was nothing but greed.

Iím really indifferent on whether they get in or not.  The records they broke need to have asterisks next to them though
Greg

Re: David Ortiz elected to Hall of Fame
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2022, 12:52:49 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Does anybody differentiate between PEDs vs. steroids vs. HGN?

Take a guy like Clemens.  Let's say he took steroid shots.  Steroids don't make you stronger.  Rather, they help your body heal faster.  That's obviously helpful as regarding injuries, but it also makes it so guys can lift more often.  They still have to put in the work, though.  If you're not lifting and working out, all steroids are going to do is make you fat and puffy.  Clemens was a workout machine.

HGN, on the other hand, helps build muscle mass without the insane workouts, from what I understand.  It also can improve eye sight / coordination.  To me, while both are bad, HGN is worse, because it's a shortcut.

I frankly think that some sort of steroid use should be legal in sports.  There are side effects, but the healing effects carry substantial benefit.  If a drug like that is going to cut months off of an athlete's recovery time, or make them less likely to get severely injured in the first place, I'd let all of these guys do them under a doctor's care.

Look at Rogers numbers the last 3-4 seasons in Boston, then look at his numbers the two following seasons in Toronto when Mcname testified he started Clemens on roids.  His numbers arenít terrible those last couple seasons in Boston but in Toronto out of nowhere he has the two best seasons of his career, putting up numbers he hasnít flirted with in 12 years.

I just canít buy that all the steroids had to do with this is help him recover faster after workouts

Why?  He was healthy, and he was in shape.

The man still went out there and pitched.  His workouts are legendary.  Steroids allowed him to be his healthiest and to workout at an insane pace.

Like I said, give a lazy dude steroids and all thatís going to happen is theyíll be bloated and angry, with smaller testicles and a lot of acne.
There are several different types of steroids.  The ones the players used most frequently were not used for recovery, but for bulk and mass.  Some players of course used the ones more similar to cortisone and things like that, but by and large they were using the anabolic steroids which helped them create muscle mass and more strength, power, etc.

The Mayo Clinic did a pretty good job of describing all of the various forms of PED's including steroids, Andro, HGH, diuretics, stimulants, etc. 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/fitness/in-depth/performance-enhancing-drugs/art-20046134

I just don't think anyone should be picking and choosing which of those are ok to get you into the HOF and which ones are not ok, or which ones may be ok if you are well liked or not only slightly linked.  There should be no gray area, either kick basically everyone out, or just let everyone in (who is otherwise deserving based on accomplishments).

For whatever it's worth, Brian McNamee said he injected Clemens with Winstrol in 98, 99 and '01.  Here's ESPN's description of the drug, which Rafael Palmeiro is alleged to have used as well:

Quote
Stanozolol [Winstrol] would be tempting for any athlete wanting to gain strength and avoid lingering injuries without the extra bulk that many anabolic steroids bring.

But for an athlete wanting to avoid detection, experts say it's not the smartest choice.

"No tested athlete in their right mind should be using that drug," said Charles Yesalis of Pennsylvania State University, who said he was "shocked" when he heard reports that Rafael Palmeiro had turned in a positive test.

There is no known masking agent that can hide stanozolol use from a drug screen, said Dr. Gary Wadler of New York University, an expert on drug use by athletes. When taken by pill it can linger in the body and be detected for several weeks to a month, while an injection can be identified for up to several months, he said.

Palmeiro began serving a 10-day suspension Monday for failing a drug test that took place sometime after his testimony on Capitol Hill in March that he never used steroids. House Government Reform Committee chairman Rep. Tom Davis, R-Va., said Wednesday in a telephone interview with the AP that the panel would look into whether Palmeiro committed perjury.

Major League Baseball has not specified what drug the test found, but a person with knowledge of the sport's drug-testing program told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity that it was stanozolol.

Palmeiro has said he never intentionally took steroids and that he doesn't know what caused the test result.

Stanozolol, an anabolic steroid also known by the brand name Winstrol, can help an athlete get stronger, build muscle mass, boost acceleration, recover faster from workouts and other physical stresses and become more assertive, Wadler said. He said there are no firm data on how well stanozolol works in comparison to other anabolic steroids when abused by athletes.

Yesalis said stanozolol appears to be moderately effective at building muscle, but not as potent as some alternatives.

Wadler said there's some indication that stanozolol is less associated with highly bulked, body-builder type muscles than other anabolic steroids are.

He also said stanozolol could help a player avoid serious injury because it helps the body recover from physical stress.

If this was Clemens' drug of choice, it's odd that he never failed a drug test, but who knows?  It's also interesting that McNamee didn't make any allegation about steroid use in '97 (Clemens first Toronto year), 2000 (6th in Cy Young voting) or thereafter (three all-star appearances; a Cy Young; and two top-3 Cy Young finishes).  One of the years Clemens is alleged to have used (1999) was the worst year of his career.


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Re: David Ortiz elected to Hall of Fame
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2022, 03:24:27 PM »

Offline greg683x

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Does anybody differentiate between PEDs vs. steroids vs. HGN?

Take a guy like Clemens.  Let's say he took steroid shots.  Steroids don't make you stronger.  Rather, they help your body heal faster.  That's obviously helpful as regarding injuries, but it also makes it so guys can lift more often.  They still have to put in the work, though.  If you're not lifting and working out, all steroids are going to do is make you fat and puffy.  Clemens was a workout machine.

HGN, on the other hand, helps build muscle mass without the insane workouts, from what I understand.  It also can improve eye sight / coordination.  To me, while both are bad, HGN is worse, because it's a shortcut.

I frankly think that some sort of steroid use should be legal in sports.  There are side effects, but the healing effects carry substantial benefit.  If a drug like that is going to cut months off of an athlete's recovery time, or make them less likely to get severely injured in the first place, I'd let all of these guys do them under a doctor's care.

Look at Rogers numbers the last 3-4 seasons in Boston, then look at his numbers the two following seasons in Toronto when Mcname testified he started Clemens on roids.  His numbers arenít terrible those last couple seasons in Boston but in Toronto out of nowhere he has the two best seasons of his career, putting up numbers he hasnít flirted with in 12 years.

I just canít buy that all the steroids had to do with this is help him recover faster after workouts

Why?  He was healthy, and he was in shape.

The man still went out there and pitched.  His workouts are legendary.  Steroids allowed him to be his healthiest and to workout at an insane pace.

Like I said, give a lazy dude steroids and all thatís going to happen is theyíll be bloated and angry, with smaller testicles and a lot of acne.
There are several different types of steroids.  The ones the players used most frequently were not used for recovery, but for bulk and mass.  Some players of course used the ones more similar to cortisone and things like that, but by and large they were using the anabolic steroids which helped them create muscle mass and more strength, power, etc.

The Mayo Clinic did a pretty good job of describing all of the various forms of PED's including steroids, Andro, HGH, diuretics, stimulants, etc. 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/fitness/in-depth/performance-enhancing-drugs/art-20046134

I just don't think anyone should be picking and choosing which of those are ok to get you into the HOF and which ones are not ok, or which ones may be ok if you are well liked or not only slightly linked.  There should be no gray area, either kick basically everyone out, or just let everyone in (who is otherwise deserving based on accomplishments).

For whatever it's worth, Brian McNamee said he injected Clemens with Winstrol in 98, 99 and '01.  Here's ESPN's description of the drug, which Rafael Palmeiro is alleged to have used as well:

Quote
Stanozolol [Winstrol] would be tempting for any athlete wanting to gain strength and avoid lingering injuries without the extra bulk that many anabolic steroids bring.

But for an athlete wanting to avoid detection, experts say it's not the smartest choice.

"No tested athlete in their right mind should be using that drug," said Charles Yesalis of Pennsylvania State University, who said he was "shocked" when he heard reports that Rafael Palmeiro had turned in a positive test.

There is no known masking agent that can hide stanozolol use from a drug screen, said Dr. Gary Wadler of New York University, an expert on drug use by athletes. When taken by pill it can linger in the body and be detected for several weeks to a month, while an injection can be identified for up to several months, he said.

Palmeiro began serving a 10-day suspension Monday for failing a drug test that took place sometime after his testimony on Capitol Hill in March that he never used steroids. House Government Reform Committee chairman Rep. Tom Davis, R-Va., said Wednesday in a telephone interview with the AP that the panel would look into whether Palmeiro committed perjury.

Major League Baseball has not specified what drug the test found, but a person with knowledge of the sport's drug-testing program told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity that it was stanozolol.

Palmeiro has said he never intentionally took steroids and that he doesn't know what caused the test result.

Stanozolol, an anabolic steroid also known by the brand name Winstrol, can help an athlete get stronger, build muscle mass, boost acceleration, recover faster from workouts and other physical stresses and become more assertive, Wadler said. He said there are no firm data on how well stanozolol works in comparison to other anabolic steroids when abused by athletes.

Yesalis said stanozolol appears to be moderately effective at building muscle, but not as potent as some alternatives.

Wadler said there's some indication that stanozolol is less associated with highly bulked, body-builder type muscles than other anabolic steroids are.

He also said stanozolol could help a player avoid serious injury because it helps the body recover from physical stress.

If this was Clemens' drug of choice, it's odd that he never failed a drug test, but who knows?  It's also interesting that McNamee didn't make any allegation about steroid use in '97 (Clemens first Toronto year), 2000 (6th in Cy Young voting) or thereafter (three all-star appearances; a Cy Young; and two top-3 Cy Young finishes).  One of the years Clemens is alleged to have used (1999) was the worst year of his career.

I could be wrong but I remember hearing about what a joke baseballs testing system was back then.  I think players got tested once each season and they knew when they were going to be tested, so they could plan for it
Greg

Re: David Ortiz elected to Hall of Fame
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2022, 03:46:12 PM »

Offline Amonkey

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Congratulations to David Ortiz! I remember driving and listening to the radio in the World Series when it seemed that every time he was on the plate, he was hitting home runs.

Ortiz and I share a random connection. We both became American citizens on the class. The ceremony was at JFK Museum and we are all waiting to begin, then all of a sudden David Ortiz shows up with his family. He took pictures with people but you could also tell that it was a special moment for him just like it was for everyone else.
Baby Jesus!

Re: David Ortiz elected to Hall of Fame
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2022, 05:56:38 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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https://youtu.be/BjC7-y06kIE

David Ortiz's Hall of Fame speech. Really excellent. If you're bilingual, it's even better.

Felicidades Big Papi!!!