Author Topic: Zach Lowe on Jaylen Brown and the Celtic's Offense  (Read 15073 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Zach Lowe on Jaylen Brown and the Celtic's Offense
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2018, 10:56:42 AM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
Like Zach Lowe. But don’t like his take here. Brown is a disappearing act with the occasional good game thrown in. We need better than Jeff Green 2.0

Not a fair read on brown at all.

Lately hes reminding me of Jason Richardson.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Zach Lowe on Jaylen Brown and the Celtic's Offense
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2018, 11:00:29 AM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
I was a brown skeptic before the draft. Thought he was too raw and didn't have any established nba level skills.

I realize two major things I was missing:

Extreme athleticism and good size coupled with intelligence is an NBA level skill.

Brown has great focus, discipline, and work ethic, which has translated to him rapidly developing the infrastructure of an advanced NBA game.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Zach Lowe on Jaylen Brown and the Celtic's Offense
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2018, 11:28:52 AM »

Offline kmart12

  • Kristaps Porzingis
  • Posts: 183
  • Tommy Points: 20
I can understand the frustration regarding Jaylen's inconsistency, but I feel that he has been fairly consistent on the defensive end, which is a tremendous improvement from his rookie year. He may not drop 20 each night, but I feel like he very rarely defends poorly. Jaylen has a long way to go with his handle and choosing his points of attack, but those components of the game come with time.

I understand the Jeff Green comparison has been retracted, but even in terms of inconsistency, both sides of Green's game have fluctuated historically, and Jaylen's inconsistency seems to be centralized on the offensive end and understandably so given his age.

Re: Zach Lowe on Jaylen Brown and the Celtic's Offense
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2018, 11:33:18 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • NCE
  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20000
  • Tommy Points: 1323
I am very pleased with Brown's progress, he is only a 2nd year player and it is clear that he worked on his game a lot in the off season.  He has shown a lot of progress from his rookie year and if this continues look out.   Not everyone is a consistent pro out of the gate, guys who are outliers and not the norm. 

Its also much harder to do on a contending team than being on a bad team where you get a ton of touches.   Brown is not a top two option on offense and is still puts up decent numbers folks.

Re: Zach Lowe on Jaylen Brown and the Celtic's Offense
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2018, 11:53:09 AM »

Offline Eja117

  • NCE
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19274
  • Tommy Points: 1254
There are times I think Jaylen could do better and there are even times I think he disappears, but I think most of the players on this team are capable of disappearing.

He's the age Paul Pierce was as a junior at Kansas before he came out. If Jaylen were in school right now he'd clearly be lighting it up and any team thinking they could draft him would be pretty happy.

To me watching Jaylen and Tatum is a little like watching young TMac and Grant Hill together.  Or young Pierce and young Toine if Toine hit all his outside shots, was slimmer, more athletic, probably a better defender, smarter, but also not as good at rebounding.

Re: Zach Lowe on Jaylen Brown and the Celtic's Offense
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2018, 12:17:42 PM »

Offline No Nickname

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 772
  • Tommy Points: 81
Love that folks are getting stuck on the throwaway comparison and less on the “he’s inconsistent” point. I also am aware that Jaylen is 21 and will likely improve.

Typically around 3000 minutes in the NBA you see a spike in a player’s development. In Brown’s case, I guess I was hoping some of that development would include not disappearing during games.

Why does it matter at this stage of his career that he's inconsistent? A lot of good players were inconsistent at the beginning.

I think it’s worth noting—and in the case of this thread I appear to be harping on!—because some players remain inconsistent. I guess that’s my worry. And it’s why I brought up that lazy, ignorant, obviously-meant-to-be-all-encompassing comparison to Jeff Green. Because I think there remains a chance that Brown won’t channel his ability into being a consistent performer on a contending team.

Well said. You’ve made great points. It seems like everyone on here gets upset if you tell them their toy isn’t the coolest. It’s ok to critique players who are still developing without it being an outright slam of their potential and value. Brown is getting better every day but the areas where we want to see the most improvement are sometimes a little slower to evolve.

What aspect of Brown’s development has not met your expectations coming into this year?

I had no expectations. I just think posters were being too critical of a valid point he was making.

Well, that’s not true. I thought he was a mediocre free throw shooter last year despite beautiful form. I hoped he would raise his percentage to around 72% this year.

But I have been pleased with his three point shooting. He’s further along there than I thought he’d be.

I just can’t stand his forced drives to the basket where he doesn’t know what to do.

Re: Zach Lowe on Jaylen Brown and the Celtic's Offense
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2018, 12:33:23 PM »

Offline GreenWarrior

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3275
  • Tommy Points: 228
I think offensively brown needs some "go to" moves. defensively I think he's been a bit of a disappointment considering he's supposed to be a defensive minded player. I think maybe he's trying to do too much on that end instead of focusing on his guy 1st. that and the switching style D we play probably doesn't help him.

Re: Zach Lowe on Jaylen Brown and the Celtic's Offense
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2018, 01:17:53 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58537
  • Tommy Points: -25636
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
I think offensively brown needs some "go to" moves. defensively I think he's been a bit of a disappointment considering he's supposed to be a defensive minded player. I think maybe he's trying to do too much on that end instead of focusing on his guy 1st. that and the switching style D we play probably doesn't help him.

I think his defense has been great.

For instance, he holds opposing players to 39.4% shooting (lowest on the team), 6.1 raw percentage points below their normal average.

That 39.4% is 6th best in the NBA among guys who have played 45 games, 1st among guys who have started at least 50% of the time.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Zach Lowe on Jaylen Brown and the Celtic's Offense
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2018, 01:19:50 PM »

Offline kmart12

  • Kristaps Porzingis
  • Posts: 183
  • Tommy Points: 20
I think offensively brown needs some "go to" moves. defensively I think he's been a bit of a disappointment considering he's supposed to be a defensive minded player. I think maybe he's trying to do too much on that end instead of focusing on his guy 1st. that and the switching style D we play probably doesn't help him.

I second the need for go-to moves. I think his handles limit his ability to create for himself because he has such a loose and poorly controlled dribble; however, he has a bunch of moves off the catch (e.g., pump fake and drive) that have served him well so far. If he can become less linear on offense, his scoring will drastically improve.

Additionally, I think our lack of rim protection hinders his production a little bit as well. Teams with legitimate rim protection can start fast breaks easier, create more opportunistic offensive possessions, and an athlete like Jaylen would thrive in that context.

Re: Zach Lowe on Jaylen Brown and the Celtic's Offense
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2018, 01:55:15 PM »

Offline Sophomore

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6227
  • Tommy Points: 823
I think offensively brown needs some "go to" moves. defensively I think he's been a bit of a disappointment considering he's supposed to be a defensive minded player. I think maybe he's trying to do too much on that end instead of focusing on his guy 1st. that and the switching style D we play probably doesn't help him.

I second the need for go-to moves. I think his handles limit his ability to create for himself because he has such a loose and poorly controlled dribble; however, he has a bunch of moves off the catch (e.g., pump fake and drive) that have served him well so far. If he can become less linear on offense, his scoring will drastically improve.

Additionally, I think our lack of rim protection hinders his production a little bit as well. Teams with legitimate rim protection can start fast breaks easier, create more opportunistic offensive possessions, and an athlete like Jaylen would thrive in that context.

Agree with all this but think that if we’re patient he’s going to improve. He’s has to try and fail some before he finds his way. He seems to have the right mindset to keep at it, though, and learn. I do see growth in his handle and control of pace - he’s still all-out more than he should be but you see signs of changing pace and letting the game slow down. I think he’s going to get there.

Re: Zach Lowe on Jaylen Brown and the Celtic's Offense
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2018, 02:21:57 PM »

Offline kmart12

  • Kristaps Porzingis
  • Posts: 183
  • Tommy Points: 20
I think offensively brown needs some "go to" moves. defensively I think he's been a bit of a disappointment considering he's supposed to be a defensive minded player. I think maybe he's trying to do too much on that end instead of focusing on his guy 1st. that and the switching style D we play probably doesn't help him.

I second the need for go-to moves. I think his handles limit his ability to create for himself because he has such a loose and poorly controlled dribble; however, he has a bunch of moves off the catch (e.g., pump fake and drive) that have served him well so far. If he can become less linear on offense, his scoring will drastically improve.

Additionally, I think our lack of rim protection hinders his production a little bit as well. Teams with legitimate rim protection can start fast breaks easier, create more opportunistic offensive possessions, and an athlete like Jaylen would thrive in that context.

Agree with all this but think that if we’re patient he’s going to improve. He’s has to try and fail some before he finds his way. He seems to have the right mindset to keep at it, though, and learn. I do see growth in his handle and control of pace - he’s still all-out more than he should be but you see signs of changing pace and letting the game slow down. I think he’s going to get there.

I see him improving with time, too. Jaylen has exhibited a crossover that, when it does work, can be utilized to create space and gain momentum to capitalize on his ability to get into the lane and finish with force. Jaylen has also shown flashes of a spin move in traffic that players of his build are not usually capable of pulling off. I think he is capable of mastering both of these moves with time (and adding more) and when he does he will be an incredibly difficult defensive assignment for opposing teams.

One thing I have enjoyed from Jaylen's play so far has been his post-up game. Stevens does not run too many plays for him in the post, but when he does, the results have been favorable. Jaylen can spin, drop step, and has an effective fadeaway jumper from the post that are all advanced for a player of his experience. Post-up games are usually the last thing to develop in all-star wings (e.g., Kobe, Wade, and LBJ), so it is exciting to see him thrive in that role when given the opportunity.

I will say that I have been surprised by his development and am encouraged that he will take the next step sooner rather than later.

Re: Zach Lowe on Jaylen Brown and the Celtic's Offense
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2018, 03:37:14 PM »

Offline Big333223

  • NCE
  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7489
  • Tommy Points: 741
I read in a number of comments that the Celtics don’t have any three-point shooters, or that we just are missing them. On the year, the Celtics are making 37% of their three-point shots, good for seventh best in the league. https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/three-point-pct.

If we want to look for a problem, maybe we should look at their two-point shooting percentage, which is 25th in the league. https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/two-point-pct

I think I know where the criticism of the long distance shooting comes from; there are some games where they go dry from three for a quarter or two, and they are not able to switch it up and go to the rim hard. I know that’s when I start shouting at my tv. But  maybe if they tried that the results would be even worse. Hopefully this is something a dose of Gordon Hayward and  development of the younger players will cure.

This. Per basketball-reference today, the Celtics are 8th in 3P% and 6th in 3PA. That sounds good to me.

The Celtics are more in need of players who can finish at the rim and get to the line. The FT's are what we miss the most from IT, who got to the line almost twice as much as Irving did last season.

Jaylen (as he gets better at reading defenses) and Jayson (as he gets stronger and just more experienced) will improve here but it'll take time. Horford just isn't the physical, interior presence that's going to get to the line a bunch.
1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1974, 1976, 1981, 1984, 1986, 2008

Re: Zach Lowe on Jaylen Brown and the Celtic's Offense
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2018, 04:53:36 PM »

Offline Kuberski33

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7070
  • Tommy Points: 533
I personally have been getting very impatient with him and Tatum lately and that's a mistake.  Neither are ready for prime time and that's now becoming pretty obvious.  The Celtics play very well when both are on their game, and can still win when only one of them is. But they're just not consistent and that's not on them, it's just their age. 

For all the great talent the T-Wolves accumulated how crappy was their record until this season when they added some veteran talent to take the pressure off Towns & Wiggins?

This team is I think is realistically probably 3rd best in their conference right now and dropping. However in the big picture, they are on schedule and once Hayward returns that's going to take a lot of pressure off Brown and Tatum's backs.

Jaylen's game is going to be needed because they need someone (besides Irving) who can get to the hoop and keep defenses honest.  For now we have to live with the inconsistency and realize they are very likely going nowhere in the playoffs this season.

Re: Zach Lowe on Jaylen Brown and the Celtic's Offense
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2018, 05:22:51 PM »

Offline hpantazo

  • Kevin McHale
  • ************************
  • Posts: 24882
  • Tommy Points: 2700
wrong thread

Re: Zach Lowe on Jaylen Brown and the Celtic's Offense
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2018, 07:27:17 PM »

Offline RodyTur10

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2757
  • Tommy Points: 291
  • Always offline from 9pm till 3am
I think offensively brown needs some "go to" moves. defensively I think he's been a bit of a disappointment considering he's supposed to be a defensive minded player. I think maybe he's trying to do too much on that end instead of focusing on his guy 1st. that and the switching style D we play probably doesn't help him.

I think his defense has been great.

For instance, he holds opposing players to 39.4% shooting (lowest on the team), 6.1 raw percentage points below their normal average.

That 39.4% is 6th best in the NBA among guys who have played 45 games, 1st among guys who have started at least 50% of the time.

Honestly I'm not surprised. I said that I think that Brown is undervalued and I stick with that. Brown should be in consideration for the NBA All-Defensive Team. His man-to-man defense is fantastic.

Team defense could be better, but maybe he doesn't understand that other players get frequently beat by dribbles or pick-and-roll, where's often able to stay in front of his man or recover thanks to his length and athletism.