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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: KGBirdBias on November 19, 2018, 06:52:47 PM

Title: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: KGBirdBias on November 19, 2018, 06:52:47 PM
I like the change. I think Hayward may play well with the 2nd unit. Now let's see what Brown does...maybe play a bit better.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: knuckleballer on November 19, 2018, 06:55:02 PM
Stevens must be reading this blog.   ;D
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: gouki88 on November 19, 2018, 06:56:39 PM
Stevens must be reading this blog.   ;D
He's still giving Rozier too many minutes for that to be the case ;)
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: knuckleballer on November 19, 2018, 06:57:29 PM
Stevens must be reading this blog.   ;D
He's still giving Rozier too many minutes for that to be the case ;)

True
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: ozgod on November 19, 2018, 07:01:10 PM
Stevens must be reading this blog.   ;D

I hope he's not getting too depressed reading it  ;D
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Somebody on November 19, 2018, 07:10:56 PM
Yes finally, I expect a rejuvenated Celtics team.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Jiri Welsch on November 19, 2018, 07:37:16 PM
After 1 we are still down 5. We were down 10 at one point. Not sure it’s the rotations that are the issue! Seems like we just are executing horribly.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: KGBirdBias on November 19, 2018, 07:51:56 PM
I think Steven's found the right starters and rotation. This looks more like it. More cohesiveness and balance. Baynes allows us to set a tone and Hayward is a playmaker on 2nd unit.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: smokeablount on November 19, 2018, 07:56:14 PM
I floated this in I believe the preseason, with a few others, and got ragged on.

How... the turntables.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on November 19, 2018, 08:09:56 PM
Poor Gordy.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: gouki88 on November 19, 2018, 08:11:21 PM
I floated this in I believe the preseason, with a few others, and got ragged on.

How... the turntables.
TP for that Office reference. Classic
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: SCeltic34 on November 19, 2018, 09:44:21 PM
I counted 3 or 4 times where Hayward drove the ball aggressively into the paint and had an open shot, but didn't even look at the rim.  This includes once in transition where it looked like he had a dunk.  It's only a matter of time (hopefully) until he looks to score instead of kicking the ball out.  Until he can do that maybe he is better off coming off the bench. 

My concern is chemistry come playoff time (cue Jim Mora's "Playoffs?!" rant)  - if Brad wants to roll with Hayward in the starting lineup, then maybe we should keep him there.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: ozgod on November 19, 2018, 10:07:01 PM
I counted 3 or 4 times where Hayward drove the ball aggressively into the paint and had an open shot, but didn't even look at the rim.  This includes once in transition where it looked like he had a dunk.  It's only a matter of time (hopefully) until he looks to score instead of kicking the ball out.  Until he can do that maybe he is better off coming off the bench. 

My concern is chemistry come playoff time (cue Jim Mora's "Playoffs?!" rant)  - if Brad wants to roll with Hayward in the starting lineup, then maybe we should keep him there.

That drive where he kicked it out when there was nobody between him and the rim convinced me that he doesn't trust his ankle yet to dunk it. I know they have instructions to drive and kick it out but surely not when you have a clear path to the basket.

In addition to the physical and mental challenges of coming back from such a terrible injury, Gordon to me looks like he's struggling to figure out what his role is and deferring to other people too much, being too unselfish. Probably because he's shooting 38% from the floor and 28% from 3 but still you have to shoot to get yourself in rhythm. Because he's shooting so little I don't think he can get in any kind of rhythm at all. It's safer to pass.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Chris22 on November 19, 2018, 10:18:00 PM
I floated this in I believe the preseason, with a few others, and got ragged on.

How... the turntables.

I did as well.

But we shot 28% from three.

I also suggested that they end each practice with a three point shooting contest.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Somebody on November 19, 2018, 10:23:21 PM
I floated this in I believe the preseason, with a few others, and got ragged on.

How... the turntables.

I did as well.

But we shot 28% from three.

I also suggested that they end each practice with a three point shooting contest.
Same here, and the Top Greens absolutely crucified us.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: keevsnick on November 19, 2018, 10:28:03 PM
A bigger issue then whether he starts or not might be that he probably shouldn't play over thirty minutes if he is clearly not playing well.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Chris22 on November 20, 2018, 12:53:26 AM
I floated this in I believe the preseason, with a few others, and got ragged on.

How... the turntables.

I did as well.

But we shot 28% from three.

I also suggested that they end each practice with a three point shooting contest.
Same here, and the Top Greens absolutely crucified us.

True.

Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: ozgod on November 20, 2018, 01:01:38 AM
A bigger issue then whether he starts or not might be that he probably shouldn't play over thirty minutes if he is clearly not playing well.

He's inconsistent. There are times when he plays well, like vs Toronto, Detroit and Milwaukee, then he has games where he looks lost and hesitant. I think missing shots is really getting to him and affecting his confidence, which is then affecting his ability to be aggressive (which is hard enough for him to re-learn given what happened to him last year).

I think part of the extended time that Brad is giving him is to try and give him some confidence and game time so he can get back into game shape. But yes at some point you have to be pragmatic and do what is best for the team before what's good for any one player.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: GreenEnvy on November 20, 2018, 02:53:58 AM
Yes, what a great move.

Everyone looked so energetic and happy. Not.

Only this time the defense was also bad.

The players obviously have their heads up their asses. And the decision to do this tonight was very questionable (as Baynes only played 7 minutes).

Kyrie has been great. Morris has been good. Everyone else has been performing below expectations, and now that includes Brad.

Yikes. This team needs to wake up. We’ve already played over 20% of the season, so the sample size is growing larger and larger.

While I do believe this team can “turn it on” against quality teams... do they really want to end up with the 3-4 seed and have to play all but the first round without HCA?

Looks like that playoff run last season was fools gold.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: smokeablount on November 20, 2018, 05:42:59 AM
Yes, what a great move.

Everyone looked so energetic and happy. Not.

Only this time the defense was also bad.

The players obviously have their heads up their asses. And the decision to do this tonight was very questionable (as Baynes only played 7 minutes).

Kyrie has been great. Morris has been good. Everyone else has been performing below expectations, and now that includes Brad.

Yikes. This team needs to wake up. We’ve already played over 20% of the season, so the sample size is growing larger and larger.

While I do believe this team can “turn it on” against quality teams... do they really want to end up with the 3-4 seed and have to play all but the first round without HCA?

Looks like that playoff run last season was fools gold.

Defense was bad, but the offense was good. And you said yourself that Baynes only played 7 minutes so I hardly think he can be blamed for our bad D. I’ve got no problem with trying new things at this point, and we’ve seen the Kyrie-JB-JT-Al-Baynes 5 be successful over last year already.  It might not work out, but 1 game where Kemba drops 40 isn’t enough to evaluate.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Celtics4ever on November 20, 2018, 06:43:05 AM
Our guys seem to have trouble adjusting to some of the new defensive rules and also I will point out that they get in foul trouble more often as a result.   Though, it is getting better in that regard.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: apc on November 20, 2018, 09:06:12 AM
I don't have stats to back me up, but to me it look like Theis is playing better than Baynes (in his limited minutes), specially on offense, where he looks like  better finisher close to the rim.   
I would prefer if he starts over Byanes (i know its not going to happen...)
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: footey on November 20, 2018, 09:26:43 AM
Yes, what a great move.

Everyone looked so energetic and happy. Not.

Only this time the defense was also bad.

The players obviously have their heads up their asses. And the decision to do this tonight was very questionable (as Baynes only played 7 minutes).

Kyrie has been great. Morris has been good. Everyone else has been performing below expectations, and now that includes Brad.

Yikes. This team needs to wake up. We’ve already played over 20% of the season, so the sample size is growing larger and larger.

While I do believe this team can “turn it on” against quality teams... do they really want to end up with the 3-4 seed and have to play all but the first round without HCA?

Looks like that playoff run last season was fools gold.

Defense was bad, but the offense was good. And you said yourself that Baynes only played 7 minutes so I hardly think he can be blamed for our bad D. I’ve got no problem with trying new things at this point, and we’ve seen the Kyrie-JB-JT-Al-Baynes 5 be successful over last year already.  It might not work out, but 1 game where Kemba drops 40 isn’t enough to evaluate.

He was pulled early because he was getting killed on switches. He also is not finishing well on pick and roles.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Vermont Green on November 20, 2018, 11:00:03 AM
I too was a preseason Hayward off the Bench proponent but the game last night is not exactly vindicating anything.  I actually now think that Brown should be playing off the bench but it is still not clear who that 5th starter should be.  Baynes is just not that good.  Neither is Theis, Ojeleye, Yabusele, or Williams.  Morris could start but he is not really a big and seems to be well suited to come off the bench.

I don't know the answer.  I think the team will collectively shoot better and that will make a lot of things look better but we need another starting caliber big.  Then keep two bigs on the floor as much as possible (or at least a big and Morris) and let Hayward, Brown, and Tatum share the wing minutes, maybe taking turns as to who starts.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: KGBirdBias on November 20, 2018, 11:11:45 AM
I've always believed Brown is better off the bench. It just allows him to come in and play freely.

Stevens said he may not be done and Brown sat out the 4th last night.

Stevens calm demeanor also may be playing a part in all of this malaise. Let's pick up the intensity Brad. LOL
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: wiley on November 24, 2018, 09:06:10 AM
It was just the Hawks, but I really liked last night's starting unit.

Horford is our playoff guru, let's keep him rested and with healthy knees for the postseason with an occasional night off and an occasional light night minutes wise...by using last night's starting lineup now and then. 

-Keep Baynes in the starting lineup, whether or not he's going to play big minutes on a particular night. 
-Hayward playing well is an incredibly dangerous weapon off the bench. 
-Irving and Brown have good chemistry. 
-Tatum at SF is just right. 
-Smart has good chemistry with Theis and so did Hayward last night (small sample).

Starting Lineup:

Baynes
Horford
Tatum
Brown
Irving

Bench Mob: 

Theis
Morris
Hayward
Rozier
Smart

R. Williams, Semi O. as needed.


Horford next year or the one after could be the best bench big in the league.  Overall, I'm sure this year when healthy enough to play he'll want to start, but I'd watch his regular season minutes pretty carefully.  He's an MVP candidate of any given playoff series.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Neurotic Guy on November 24, 2018, 09:20:29 AM
It was just the Hawks, but I really liked last night's starting unit.

Horford is our playoff guru, let's keep him rested and with healthy knees for the postseason with an occasional night off and an occasional light night minutes wise...by using last night's starting lineup now and then. 

-Keep Baynes in the starting lineup, whether or not he's going to play big minutes on a particular night. 
-Hayward playing well is an incredibly dangerous weapon off the bench. 
-Irving and Brown have good chemistry. 
-Tatum at SF is just right. 
-Smart has good chemistry with Theis and so did Hayward last night (small sample).

Starting Lineup:

Baynes
Horford
Tatum
Brown
Irving

Bench Mob: 

Theis
Morris
Hayward
Rozier
Smart

R. Williams, Semi O. as needed.


Horford next year or the one after could be the best bench big in the league.  Overall, I'm sure this year when healthy enough to play he'll want to start, but I'd watch his regular season minutes pretty carefully.  He's an MVP candidate of any given playoff series.

That bench should NEVER lose a lead. Amazing talent from 6 to 10 — could beat Atlanta on their own.   
Yes, GH, DT and MS may have something there
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Surferdad on November 24, 2018, 10:49:39 AM
This thread misses a point that Brad is making:  It's not who starts, it's how many minutes plus finding the right lineup combinations.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: wiley on November 24, 2018, 11:05:11 AM
This thread misses a point that Brad is making:  It's not who starts, it's how many minutes plus finding the right lineup combinations.

But might as well start the game with one of those "right lineup" combos..
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Surferdad on November 24, 2018, 11:26:13 AM
This thread misses a point that Brad is making:  It's not who starts, it's how many minutes plus finding the right lineup combinations.

But might as well start the game with one of those "right lineup" combos..
Not necessarily.  I think match-ups are more important and I predict we'll see changes from night to night.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: smokeablount on November 24, 2018, 01:31:50 PM
It was just the Hawks, but I really liked last night's starting unit.

Horford is our playoff guru, let's keep him rested and with healthy knees for the postseason with an occasional night off and an occasional light night minutes wise...by using last night's starting lineup now and then. 

-Keep Baynes in the starting lineup, whether or not he's going to play big minutes on a particular night. 
-Hayward playing well is an incredibly dangerous weapon off the bench. 
-Irving and Brown have good chemistry. 
-Tatum at SF is just right. 
-Smart has good chemistry with Theis and so did Hayward last night (small sample).

Starting Lineup:

Baynes
Horford
Tatum
Brown
Irving

Bench Mob: 

Theis
Morris
Hayward
Rozier
Smart

R. Williams, Semi O. as needed.


Horford next year or the one after could be the best bench big in the league.  Overall, I'm sure this year when healthy enough to play he'll want to start, but I'd watch his regular season minutes pretty carefully.  He's an MVP candidate of any given playoff series.

That bench should NEVER lose a lead. Amazing talent from 6 to 10 — could beat Atlanta on their own.   
Yes, GH, DT and MS may have something there

Agreed. Got a #6 pick, a #9, a #14 and a #16 and none of them are busts. In fact, other than Smart, I’d say all are pretty big hits. And then a 1st pick and 3 3rd Overalls as starters lol
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Ogaju on November 24, 2018, 01:55:17 PM
finally a coach that thinks out of the box.....starting lineup means nothing..you have a squad play them according to need.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: ozgod on November 24, 2018, 02:34:04 PM
finally a coach that thinks out of the box.....starting lineup means nothing..you have a squad play them according to need.

It's hard to overcome years of entrenched bias from coaches, players and fans. The best players are always associated with starting. Almost all All-Star and All-NBA selections are starters. The players want to start. The fans only consider starters to be among the best players if you surveyed them. It's harder for bench players to win max contracts.

If you think about it the real measure of the value a player brings to a team is not necessarily if they are on court for the tip-off, but how many minutes they actually play and whether they are there at the end. But we're going against years of tradition and history, not just in the NBA but through all levels of basketball in trying to overcome the starters > everyone else mentality. It's a team game but there's a pecking order and that's been the paradigm for decades.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that Baynes is better than Gordon, or that even Jaylen Brown is better than Gordon (at his best), but Gordon has the skillset to be able to mesh better with a second unit since he is a playmaker, he can handle the ball and he can also score. It's a challenge for him to get over it and understandably so. He's said all the right things so far and done his best in his new role but inside it must be a challenge to overcome.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: playdream on November 24, 2018, 03:09:23 PM
Well after think about it our guys can still create open 3s with 4 out so the 5 out advantage is slim, plus apparently they can't make a living from consistent shooting so always put a rebounding big inside to rebound or tap it out may better suit them

Also Hayward and Smart is a strong combo on playmaking/defense and versatility off the bench
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: IDreamCeltics on November 24, 2018, 03:40:59 PM
It's a late reaction to an obvious problem, but better late than never.  Baynes is a better player right now hands down.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Chris22 on November 25, 2018, 01:57:52 AM
Baynes should be starting every game, not Morris.

Baynes gives the starting unit what it needs, interior defense and rebounding, plus great picks.

Morris gives the second unit what it needs, scoring.

It worked last year, Brad, go back to it.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: GreenEnvy on November 25, 2018, 02:26:02 AM
I just don’t see how Gordon stays on the bench once he returns to the player he was.

If Brad wants him to be more assertive and not a spot-up shooter until he gets his rhythm back, fine.

But once he gets going, Brad is going to have to figure out what to do with Brown/Tatum, as I do think Baynes fills a need with the starters (defense and rebounding, doesn’t need touches).
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Celtics4ever on November 25, 2018, 05:00:48 AM
Folks can't blame Hayward for last night, he did not play, guess it is time to go back to the drawing board, eh?
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Who on November 25, 2018, 09:31:58 AM
I hated seeing Morris get the start last night. Morris has been playing so well in that 6th man role that I am loathe to see anything disrupt that. I think Stevens should have kept Morris in that bench role and started one of the end of bench guys instead. Semi or Theis. Even Yabu. Just to ensure stability in Morris' role and understanding of what is needed from him.

Don't mess with a good thing.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Chris22 on November 25, 2018, 10:26:42 AM
I hated seeing Morris get the start last night. Morris has been playing so well in that 6th man role that I am loathe to see anything disrupt that. I think Stevens should have kept Morris in that bench role and started one of the end of bench guys instead. Semi or Theis. Even Yabu. Just to ensure stability in Morris' role and understanding of what is needed from him.

Don't mess with a good thing.

Start Baynes, leave Morris on the second unit.

Just like Doc, Brad has this ridiculous obsession with "going small."
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: IDreamCeltics on November 26, 2018, 10:54:05 AM
I hated seeing Morris get the start last night. Morris has been playing so well in that 6th man role that I am loathe to see anything disrupt that. I think Stevens should have kept Morris in that bench role and started one of the end of bench guys instead. Semi or Theis. Even Yabu. Just to ensure stability in Morris' role and understanding of what is needed from him.

Don't mess with a good thing.

Start Baynes, leave Morris on the second unit.

Just like Doc, Brad has this ridiculous obsession with "going small."

Agreed.  Brad has an almost Freudian obsession with proving that size isn't everything.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: hwangjini_1 on November 26, 2018, 10:55:30 AM
CBS recently started morris who is 6'9" and baynes who is 6'10". how is this small? and who is bigger on the celtics?
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: ozgod on November 26, 2018, 02:55:28 PM
CBS recently started morris who is 6'9" and baynes who is 6'10". how is this small? and who is bigger on the celtics?

Baynes is probably a bit bigger horizontally  ;D
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: nickagneta on November 26, 2018, 03:54:58 PM
So is it safe to say that getting Hayward out of a starting position and Baynes into the starting lineup has made absolutely no difference whatsoever, especially given Baynes is still playing limited minutes while Hayward is still around 30 MPG since his being moved to the bench?
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Chris22 on November 26, 2018, 04:02:45 PM
CBS recently started morris who is 6'9" and baynes who is 6'10". how is this small? and who is bigger on the celtics?

And when CBS did that, we scored 45 points in the first quarter.

Which proves my point, thank you!
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Chris22 on November 26, 2018, 04:03:42 PM
So is it safe to say that getting Hayward out of a starting position and Baynes into the starting lineup has made absolutely no difference whatsoever, especially given Baynes is still playing limited minutes while Hayward is still around 30 MPG since his being moved to the bench?

When Baynes started the other night, we scored 45 points in the first quarter.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: GreenEnvy on November 26, 2018, 04:10:02 PM
So is it safe to say that getting Hayward out of a starting position and Baynes into the starting lineup has made absolutely no difference whatsoever, especially given Baynes is still playing limited minutes while Hayward is still around 30 MPG since his being moved to the bench?

When Baynes started the other night, we scored 45 points in the first quarter.

Against Atlanta? That’s your proof that it’s working? They’ve given up 120+ 9 times already (including 138 and 146 defensive masterpieces), all but one in losses. They are extremely terrible defensively. One quarter does not mean much to me.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Chris22 on November 26, 2018, 04:14:10 PM
So is it safe to say that getting Hayward out of a starting position and Baynes into the starting lineup has made absolutely no difference whatsoever, especially given Baynes is still playing limited minutes while Hayward is still around 30 MPG since his being moved to the bench?

When Baynes started the other night, we scored 45 points in the first quarter.

Against Atlanta? That’s your proof that it’s working? They’ve given up 120+ 9 times already (including 138 and 146 defensive masterpieces), all but one in losses. They are extremely terrible defensively. One quarter does not mean much to me.

Well, open your eyes and watch every team drive on us and post up on us in the first quarter of every game. The Mavericks did it in the game the other night and scored 32 in the first quarter.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: ozgod on November 26, 2018, 04:14:25 PM
Here's how the Irving/Horford/Baynes/Tatum/Brown lineup has performed so far this season, from NBA.com stats.

Code: [Select]
LINEUPS TEAM GP MIN PTS FGM FGA FG% 3PM 3PA 3P% FTM FTA FT% OREB DREB REB AST TOV STL BLK BLKA PF PFD +/-
.A. Horford, .K. Irving, .A. Baynes, .J. Brown, .J. Tatum BOS 7 3.6 7.9 3.0 6.3 47.7 0.7 1.7 41.7 1.1 1.3 88.9 0.4 2.9 3.3 2.3 1.4 0.4 1.4 0.6 1.4 1.3 0.0


Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: nickagneta on November 26, 2018, 04:24:34 PM
So is it safe to say that getting Hayward out of a starting position and Baynes into the starting lineup has made absolutely no difference whatsoever, especially given Baynes is still playing limited minutes while Hayward is still around 30 MPG since his being moved to the bench?

When Baynes started the other night, we scored 45 points in the first quarter.
And the Celtics scored 30 points in the 1st quarter against the best team in the league, Toronto, also 30 and 31 points against Detroit with Hayward in the starting lineup.

Boston also scored just 18 points against the Knicks and 24 points in the first quarter against Charlotte.

So what exactly is your point?
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Chris22 on November 26, 2018, 04:26:53 PM
So is it safe to say that getting Hayward out of a starting position and Baynes into the starting lineup has made absolutely no difference whatsoever, especially given Baynes is still playing limited minutes while Hayward is still around 30 MPG since his being moved to the bench?

When Baynes started the other night, we scored 45 points in the first quarter.
And the Celtics scored 30 points in the 1st quarter against the best team in the league, Toronto, also 30 and 31 points against Detroit with Hayward in the starting lineup.

Boston also scored just 18 points against the Knicks and 24 points in the first quarter against Charlotte.

So what exactly is your point?

What is my point? What is the title of this thread?

 Baynes should start, especially against teams with big talented centers.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: nickagneta on November 26, 2018, 05:04:06 PM
So is it safe to say that getting Hayward out of a starting position and Baynes into the starting lineup has made absolutely no difference whatsoever, especially given Baynes is still playing limited minutes while Hayward is still around 30 MPG since his being moved to the bench?

When Baynes started the other night, we scored 45 points in the first quarter.
And the Celtics scored 30 points in the 1st quarter against the best team in the league, Toronto, also 30 and 31 points against Detroit with Hayward in the starting lineup.

Boston also scored just 18 points against the Knicks and 24 points in the first quarter against Charlotte.

So what exactly is your point?

What is my point? What is the title of this thread?

 Baynes should start, especially against teams with big talented centers.
I meant your point about the CS getting 45 points against a pathetic Atlanta team. You obviously were implying that Hayward on the bench and Baynes starting was responsible for that 45 points. I showed you Hayward has started games where Boston scored a lot of points and that Baynes started games that where the Celtics scored very little points.

So obviously your point there is wrong.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Chris22 on November 26, 2018, 08:19:27 PM
So is it safe to say that getting Hayward out of a starting position and Baynes into the starting lineup has made absolutely no difference whatsoever, especially given Baynes is still playing limited minutes while Hayward is still around 30 MPG since his being moved to the bench?

When Baynes started the other night, we scored 45 points in the first quarter.
And the Celtics scored 30 points in the 1st quarter against the best team in the league, Toronto, also 30 and 31 points against Detroit with Hayward in the starting lineup.

Boston also scored just 18 points against the Knicks and 24 points in the first quarter against Charlotte.

So what exactly is your point?

What is my point? What is the title of this thread?

 Baynes should start, especially against teams with big talented centers.
I meant your point about the CS getting 45 points against a pathetic Atlanta team. You obviously were implying that Hayward on the bench and Baynes starting was responsible for that 45 points. I showed you Hayward has started games where Boston scored a lot of points and that Baynes started games that where the Celtics scored very little points.

So obviously your point there is wrong.

No, it is not.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: nickagneta on November 26, 2018, 09:25:04 PM
So is it safe to say that getting Hayward out of a starting position and Baynes into the starting lineup has made absolutely no difference whatsoever, especially given Baynes is still playing limited minutes while Hayward is still around 30 MPG since his being moved to the bench?

When Baynes started the other night, we scored 45 points in the first quarter.
And the Celtics scored 30 points in the 1st quarter against the best team in the league, Toronto, also 30 and 31 points against Detroit with Hayward in the starting lineup.

Boston also scored just 18 points against the Knicks and 24 points in the first quarter against Charlotte.

So what exactly is your point?

What is my point? What is the title of this thread?

 Baynes should start, especially against teams with big talented centers.
I meant your point about the CS getting 45 points against a pathetic Atlanta team. You obviously were implying that Hayward on the bench and Baynes starting was responsible for that 45 points. I showed you Hayward has started games where Boston scored a lot of points and that Baynes started games that where the Celtics scored very little points.

So obviously your point there is wrong.

No, it is not.
Except the numbers say differently.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: IDreamCeltics on December 13, 2018, 10:59:07 AM
Where has Hayward been the last few games?  I kind of expected him to be rounding into form in December, but in his last three games he scored 5 pts and registered two DNP's.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on December 13, 2018, 11:05:33 AM
Where has Hayward been the last few games?  I kind of expected him to be rounding into form in December, but in his last three games he scored 5 pts and registered two DNP's.

5 points in a blowout win isn't a big deal. He's been sick the last two games.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Surferdad on December 13, 2018, 11:16:57 AM
Where has Hayward been the last few games?  I kind of expected him to be rounding into form in December, but in his last three games he scored 5 pts and registered two DNP's.

5 points in a blowout win isn't a big deal. He's been sick the last two games.
A bug is going around the team.  That's why Brown and Yabusele were out too.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: nickagneta on December 13, 2018, 11:42:41 AM
Where has Hayward been the last few games?  I kind of expected him to be rounding into form in December, but in his last three games he scored 5 pts and registered two DNP's.

5 points in a blowout win isn't a big deal. He's been sick the last two games.
A bug is going around the team.  That's why Brown and Yabusele were out too.
Yabusele is out for a while with a severely sprained ankle.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: ozgod on December 13, 2018, 02:56:49 PM
Where has Hayward been the last few games?  I kind of expected him to be rounding into form in December, but in his last three games he scored 5 pts and registered two DNP's.

Today’s daily Hayward post from IDreamAboutHaywardAllThe Time aka Jae Crowder’s alter ego  :laugh:
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 13, 2018, 03:17:56 PM
Hayward has probably already peaked as a player.  Unlikely he will ever play as well as he did his lone all-star season.  That said, I think he might start looking like himself again (16ppg, 44% from the field 36% from three) after the allstar break.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on December 13, 2018, 03:24:51 PM
Hayward has probably already peaked as a player.  Unlikely he will ever play as well as he did his lone all-star season.  That said, I think he might start looking like himself again (16ppg, 44% from the field 36% from three) after the allstar break.

If what you mean is that he has peaked statistically as a player, then I probably agree.

I don't think he has peaked as a facilitator/passer/playmaker. I don't think he has peaked as a defender or rebounder. I don't think he has peaked as a shooter.

He may never have the scoring stats that he had in Utah, but I think he can still become a better basketball player.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: Eddie20 on December 13, 2018, 04:57:09 PM
Hayward has probably already peaked as a player.  Unlikely he will ever play as well as he did his lone all-star season.  That said, I think he might start looking like himself again (16ppg, 44% from the field 36% from three) after the allstar break.

That's great news that you feel that way!! Considering your track record for predicting player success is so god awful, that this makes me feel really positive about Hayward's career moving forward.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: tstorey_97 on December 13, 2018, 05:49:51 PM
Hayward has trended well, I think the stats bear out.

I prefer the non Hayward starting five with Smart and Australia. Neither Smart or Baynes are scoring threats allowing Irving/Morris/Tatum to make it happen, which they have.

Brown/Rozier/Hayward can work on playing together, which they have been doing. I suggest it offers Hayward and Brown, whom have needed to improve, the opportunity to be on the court for whatever minutes a game as a unit without Irving and Tatum.

Don't know if it will work for the bench...that is up to them...it is clearly working for the starters.
Morris is going to have a career season? Perfect, start him and give him the ball. Irving can play off the ball? No problem. Smart can facilitate on offense and win a dozen possessions on defense? Have at it. Tatum needs to score? Easy. Baynes takes a couple shots a game and runs the scrum underneath? We have a starting role for you.

Morris, Rozier, Irving, Smart and Tatum were ba*&'s to the wall in the second half last night. Wizards had too few answers.
Title: Re: Baynes starting, Hayward off the bench
Post by: nickagneta on December 13, 2018, 06:02:10 PM
Hayward has trended well, I think the stats bear out.

I prefer the non Hayward starting five with Smart and Australia. Neither Smart or Baynes are scoring threats allowing Irving/Morris/Tatum to make it happen, which they have.

Brown/Rozier/Hayward can work on playing together,
which they have been doing. I suggest it offers Hayward and Brown, whom have needed to improve, the opportunity to be on the court for whatever minutes a game as a unit without Irving and Tatum.

Don't know if it will work for the bench...that is up to them...it is clearly working for the starters.
Morris is going to have a career season? Perfect, start him and give him the ball. Irving can play off the ball? No problem. Smart can facilitate on offense and win a dozen possessions on defense? Have at it. Tatum needs to score? Easy. Baynes takes a couple shots a game and runs the scrum underneath? We have a starting role for you.

Morris, Rozier, Irving, Smart and Tatum were ba*&'s to the wall in the second half last night. Wizards had too few answers.
So you are benching Horford to have Baynes and Morris in the starting lineup with Horford, Hayward, Brown, Rozier and Theis as your bench players?