Jeff Green and Jarod Sullinger

[hpantazo]

Sully still has those games where he looks completely lost on the defensive end. I like sully but if we take this team as constructed into the playoffs, *Collins at center please no* i don't think we have a legit chance to win banner 18. We have an outside chance but not realistic. I'm pretty confident danny will pull the trigger tho.

Id be all for that too. What I'm not for however is going into the playoffs with collins as our starting center. Sorry, but you won't convince me that is the road we should go down.

I don't see us getting an all-star big man for a package of Sullinger and Lee or Bass. It's not happening. I wouldn't trade them for a Gortat type of player when we can get someone like Dalembert for much less.

I agree. If we go into the playoffs with Collins as a starter we are screwed. I'm confident that won't happen though. We will get someone like Dalembert or Mozgov for cheap by the deadline. That would add a veteran center that can help us this year without giving away our young talent.

[kozlodoev]

As much as I want to see a trade for a young star to play with Rondo for the foreseeable future, I think it's prudent for us to wait a while, for several reasons.

1. We need to see how effective Bradley is... who knows, he could solve a lot of our problems.
2. We need to continue to let the team gel - not necessarily completely gel, because that could take too long and we are going for a title, but gel a little more than they have. I think if we do this, some of our players will begin to play better, and their trade stock will go up.

Right now, we have three players whose trade stock is extremely low (Bass, Lee, Bradley), and a couple whose stock is on the rise (Green, Sullinger). Let the rising stock keep rising and hope that the low stock turns around.

I agree with all this. Our best trade chip isn't Sully or Green, it's Bradley. But he's only our best trade chip once he starts beasting on opponents.

Trading a guy like Cousins or Al Jeff is a lot more palatable when you have the opportunity to acquire a starting potentially game changing guard in the package.

If Bradley solves alot of our problems defensively,and is a starting-game changing guard...WHY on earth would you want to trade him?

its like building one hole(perimiter defense) to fill another(rebounding)

our bigs havent been the problem. its our guard's defense

Wholeheartedly disagree. Outside of KG, we have the worst set of bigs in the NBA.

That said, Bradley can still help, because he pesters players in transition and prevents them from going straight to the rim, saving our bigs' energy.

Our bigs have absolutely been the problem, as evidenced by how the defense looked decidedly better against a team that pretty much runs nothing but isolation. Every single big man not named Kevin Garnett on our roster has been exposed in defensive rotation so far this season.

[indeedproceed]

As much as I want to see a trade for a young star to play with Rondo for the foreseeable future, I think it's prudent for us to wait a while, for several reasons.

1. We need to see how effective Bradley is... who knows, he could solve a lot of our problems.
2. We need to continue to let the team gel - not necessarily completely gel, because that could take too long and we are going for a title, but gel a little more than they have. I think if we do this, some of our players will begin to play better, and their trade stock will go up.

Right now, we have three players whose trade stock is extremely low (Bass, Lee, Bradley), and a couple whose stock is on the rise (Green, Sullinger). Let the rising stock keep rising and hope that the low stock turns around.

I agree with all this. Our best trade chip isn't Sully or Green, it's Bradley. But he's only our best trade chip once he starts beasting on opponents.

Trading a guy like Cousins or Al Jeff is a lot more palatable when you have the opportunity to acquire a starting potentially game changing guard in the package.

If Bradley solves alot of our problems defensively,and is a starting-game changing guard...WHY on earth would you want to trade him?

its like building one hole(perimiter defense) to fill another(rebounding)

our bigs havent been the problem. its our guard's defense

Well, a trade package is defined by the pieces coming back, along with the pieces leaving.

I think Cousins is a bigger impact player to get next to Rondo long term and short term to make the trade. I think if Gordon Hayward were part of the package coming back with Jefferson, it makes trading Bradley worth it.

But, of Bradley is looking like a monster, and we're winning games, Im fine standing pat.

Keep in mind, Bradley didnt get new shoulders. He's still an injury concern. And while contending tis year is ideally the end game, if we look like crap come thebdeadline, I'm cool with making a move for a guy who is a long term pedestal to put next to Rondo that fills a more traditional (and harder to fill role) to try to build a future contender on.

[hpantazo]

As much as I want to see a trade for a young star to play with Rondo for the foreseeable future, I think it's prudent for us to wait a while, for several reasons.

1. We need to see how effective Bradley is... who knows, he could solve a lot of our problems.
2. We need to continue to let the team gel - not necessarily completely gel, because that could take too long and we are going for a title, but gel a little more than they have. I think if we do this, some of our players will begin to play better, and their trade stock will go up.

Right now, we have three players whose trade stock is extremely low (Bass, Lee, Bradley), and a couple whose stock is on the rise (Green, Sullinger). Let the rising stock keep rising and hope that the low stock turns around.

I agree with all this. Our best trade chip isn't Sully or Green, it's Bradley. But he's only our best trade chip once he starts beasting on opponents.

Trading a guy like Cousins or Al Jeff is a lot more palatable when you have the opportunity to acquire a starting potentially game changing guard in the package.

If Bradley solves alot of our problems defensively,and is a starting-game changing guard...WHY on earth would you want to trade him?

its like building one hole(perimiter defense) to fill another(rebounding)

our bigs havent been the problem. its our guard's defense

Well, a trade package is defined by the pieces coming back, along with the pieces leaving.

I think Cousins is a bigger impact player to get next to Rondo long term and short term to make the trade. I think if Gordon Hayward were part of the package coming back with Jefferson, it makes trading Bradley worth it.

But, of Bradley is looking like a monster, and we're winning games, Im fine standing pat.

Keep in mind, Bradley didnt get new shoulders. He's still an injury concern. And while contending tis year is ideally the end game, if we look like crap come thebdeadline, I'm cool with making a move for a guy who is a long term pedestal to put next to Rondo that fills a more traditional (and harder to fill role) to try to build a future contender on.

Cousins is a top 5 big man in the league if he gets his act together, and he's very young. Of course you trade Bradley for him if you can. With Cousins and Rondo, we would have a very solid foundation for the future AND be in a better position to contend this year. Lee can compensate for not having Bradley, there is no one that can give us what Cousins would give us.

A couple of other players who were head cases and after being traded became celtic champions: Dennis Johnson and Robert Parrish.

[TripleOT]

Against the Nets, we saw a totally focused Sullinger make amends for his poor performance earlier in the year against Brooklyn.

This is the kind of play the Cs need from him in order to be an elite team.  I don't expect him to play this well every night, but I don't see he can;t build off this game and strive to be more consistent. 

I'd still trade him for someone like Smith in a heartbeat and also for Cousins, maybe with a tiny bit of reservation.

I'd do something like Sully, Melo, Green and a pick for Cousins and one of the Kings' overpaid SFs (Salmons or Garcia).  I don't know how Sacto doesn't take that deal if they value Sully and think Melo has upside as project.   

 

[indeedproceed]

I'd do something like Sully, Melo, Green and a pick for Cousins and one of the Kings' overpaid SFs (Salmons or Garcia).  I don't know how Sacto doesn't take that deal if they value Sully and think Melo has upside as project.   

 

Thomas Robinson has an upside above or near Sully's.

[hpantazo]

I'd do something like Sully, Melo, Green and a pick for Cousins and one of the Kings' overpaid SFs (Salmons or Garcia).  I don't know how Sacto doesn't take that deal if they value Sully and think Melo has upside as project.   

 

Thomas Robinson has an upside above or near Sully's.

And he plays the same position. Sacramento can find a number of teams that would make better trading partners for Cousins if we are not giving up Bradley.

[TripleOT]

I'd do something like Sully, Melo, Green and a pick for Cousins and one of the Kings' overpaid SFs (Salmons or Garcia).  I don't know how Sacto doesn't take that deal if they value Sully and think Melo has upside as project.   

 

Thomas Robinson has an upside above or near Sully's.

On paper, yes, but so far he's been a disaster.  He's hitting only  25% of his jump shots, and converting only half  his layup attempts. 

I thought TRob was going to be a Karl Malone type and possible ROY, but the guy can't even find minutes on one of the league's worst teams.

Sullinger has a way better feel for the NBA game and a better shooting touch.  Robinson is a better athlete, but many times that doesn't translate into becoming a good NBA player.   

And he plays the same position. Sacramento can find a number of teams that would make better trading partners for Cousins if we are not giving up Bradley.

Sacto should hold out for Bradley, since none of their guards can play a lick of defense.  Does Ainge do Green, Sully, AB and a pick for Cousins and Thomas? 

[hpantazo]

I'd do something like Sully, Melo, Green and a pick for Cousins and one of the Kings' overpaid SFs (Salmons or Garcia).  I don't know how Sacto doesn't take that deal if they value Sully and think Melo has upside as project.   

 

Thomas Robinson has an upside above or near Sully's.

On paper, yes, but so far he's been a disaster.  He's hitting only  25% of his jump shots, and converting only half  his layup attempts. 

I thought TRob was going to be a Karl Malone type and possible ROY, but the guy can't even find minutes on one of the league's worst teams.

Sullinger has a way better feel for the NBA game and a better shooting touch.  Robinson is a better athlete, but many times that doesn't translate into becoming a good NBA player.   

And he plays the same position. Sacramento can find a number of teams that would make better trading partners for Cousins if we are not giving up Bradley.

Sacto should hold out for Bradley, since none of their guards can play a lick of defense.  Does Ainge do Green, Sully, AB and a pick for Cousins and Thomas?

If you switch Lee for Green I would do that trade (Lee, Sullinger, and Bradley for Cousins and Thomas). We need Green on the wing this year, we have no one else to back up Pierce, and I would think Lee is useful to the Kings.

[indeedproceed]

I'd do something like Sully, Melo, Green and a pick for Cousins and one of the Kings' overpaid SFs (Salmons or Garcia).  I don't know how Sacto doesn't take that deal if they value Sully and think Melo has upside as project.   

 

Thomas Robinson has an upside above or near Sully's.

On paper, yes, but so far he's been a disaster.  He's hitting only  25% of his jump shots, and converting only half  his layup attempts. 

I thought TRob was going to be a Karl Malone type and possible ROY, but the guy can't even find minutes on one of the league's worst teams.

Sullinger has a way better feel for the NBA game and a better shooting touch.  Robinson is a better athlete, but many times that doesn't translate into becoming a good NBA player.   

And he plays the same position. Sacramento can find a number of teams that would make better trading partners for Cousins if we are not giving up Bradley.

Sacto should hold out for Bradley, since none of their guards can play a lick of defense.  Does Ainge do Green, Sully, AB and a pick for Cousins and Thomas?

I agree that Robinson has underwhelmed so far, but you don't use a lotto pick on a guy then trade your best prospect for a package centered around a guy who is redundant for your less than half a season old lotto pick.

It's just a terrible return on investments, doesn't check out.

[crimson_stallion]

I think we over rate his shooting.  He is not as good as shooter as Bass even but he can do more things.boards. 

Debatable.

Bass has traditionally shot a great percentage from midrange, however he's pretty much useless from any other range, and this year his midrange shot has dropped off to the point where it is now far from spectacular.

So far this season Bass is shooting 43% from midrange, he's shooting 45% from inside the paint and he has zero ability to shoot from three.

Sullinger is shooting 36% from midrange, but he's shooting 54% from inside the paint and he has the ability to step out and hit from three point range.

This is despite the fact that Sully has only played 20-something games as an NBA pro.  With more experience I think he's going to become a better shooter than Bass, as well as a more versatile scorer. 

Plus Sully IMHO has better shot selection then Bass.

and those borderline allstars are just sitting around for the taking? likely you are getting someone like Gortat..who while a solid player is NOT a borderline allstar.

I would argue that Gortat is a borderline All-Star. 

Right now he is underachieving on a team that isn't properly utilising his talent, but last season when he was in a suitable system he averaged 15 points, 56% FG, 10 rebounds, 1.5 blocks and only 1.4 turnovers in 32 minutes. 

Lets see how those numbers compare against what some of the top centers in the league are averaging right now:



Basically if Gortat were putting up the same numbers this year (which he should given the right role) then among this group he would rank:

* 6th in scoring
* 2nd in FG%
* =4th in rebounding
* 7th in blocks
* 2nd in (fewest) turnovers

Now since we are comparing him against other players at his position, lets assume we still have the old All-Star voting system where centers are distinct from forwards.  This means you would have 2-3 centers chose in each conference, meaning 4-6 centers voted to the All-Star game overall.

Tier 1 Centres - All Star calibre

East:
1. Chris Bosh
2. Tyson Chandler
3. Kevin Garnett

West:
4. Dwight Howard
5. Tim Duncan
6. Marc Gasol
 

Tier 2 Centers - Borderline All Stars

East:
* Joakim Noah
* Al Hortford

West:
* LeMarcus Aldridge
* Marcin Gortat


Tier 3 Centers - High Quality Starters

East:
* Brook Lopez
* Roy Hibbert
* Anderson Varejao
* Greg Monroe

West:
* Pau Gasol
* DeMarcus Cousins

I class these guys as Tier 3 centers becuase IMHO you are not among the top 2 tiers of Centers if you are:

a) Shooting < 42% from the field (Hibbert, Gasol, Cousins)

b) Grabbing < 10 rebounds per 48 mins (Lopez)

c) Blocking < 1 shot per 48 minutes (Varejao, Monroe)

It's not a scientifically perfect deduction by any means, but I don't think that considering Gortat a 'Borderline All-Star' is far fetched at all.

We could certainly use a big man who can give us the type of scoring, rebounding and shotblocking Gortat offers.

[crimson_stallion]

Lee can compensate for not having Bradley, there is no one that can give us what Cousins would give us.

This I very strongly disagree with.

The only difference in our starting lineup right now between this year and last year is that we havehad either  Terry or Lee (instead of Bradley) at the starting SG spot. Our defense from that starting unit has been nowhere near as good as it was last season with Bradley in there.

Doc has tried toying with Lee as the starting SG (as he likes Terry's scoring off the bench) but when Lee has started our team has looked considerably worse.

I can't see any evidence (statistical or eye test) to suggest that Lee can even come close to making up for what we'd lose if Bradley was gone.  Lee is nowhere near the defender Bradley was last season, while Bradley was also more consistent offensively as well.

[hpantazo]

Lee can compensate for not having Bradley, there is no one that can give us what Cousins would give us.

This I very strongly disagree with.

The only difference in our starting lineup right now between this year and last year is that we havehad either  Terry or Lee (instead of Bradley) at the starting SG spot. Our defense from that starting unit has been nowhere near as good as it was last season with Bradley in there.

Doc has tried toying with Lee as the starting SG (as he likes Terry's scoring off the bench) but when Lee has started our team has looked considerably worse.

I can't see any evidence (statistical or eye test) to suggest that Lee can even come close to making up for what we'd lose if Bradley was gone.  Lee is nowhere near the defender Bradley was last season, while Bradley was also more consistent offensively as well.

We took the defending champs to game 7 and within 10 minutes of beating them in game 7 last year without Bradley and with the defensive force that is Ray Allen instead. I think Lee can compensate. I never said he was as good a defender as Bradley, but he can at least do a decent job.

[crimson_stallion]

We took the defending champs to game 7 and within 10 minutes of beating them in game 7 last year without Bradley and with the defensive force that is Ray Allen instead. I think Lee can compensate. I never said he was as good a defender as Bradley, but he can at least do a decent job.

Yes, if you care to recall we lost that game and were eliminated.  The one series we played without Avery Bradley was the one playoff series we didn't win.

Ray Allen's scoring didn't make up for us losing Bradley's defense. 

Bradley had a +15 Net Rating (102.9 Off, 87.9 Def) in the playoffs while Ray Allen had a -1.9 Net Rating (98.6 Off, 100.5 Def). 

For the record Courtney Lee currently has a -2.2 Net Rating (99.8 Off, 102.0 Def) which is worse than both Bradley and Ray.

Letsnot forget how hard fought our first and second rounds were against Atlanta and Philly.  We won both series, but it took everything we had to scrape through.

Make no mistake about it - if we didn't have Bradley in he playoffs last season we probably never would have made it past the first round.  If we had him against Miami there's a very strong possibliity we'd have seen OKC in the Finals.

For the record Demarcus Cousins has a -9.8 overall rating. This is absolutely skewed by him being on a bad team, but if you think that trading Bradley for Cousins (and hoping Lee can pick up the slack) will make us a better team, I would suggest that this is very much not the case. 

Right now the only guys on our team who have a positive net rating are Rondo (+0.9), Terry (+3., Pierce (+3.6), Sullinger (+0.9) and Garnett (+5.7).  Based on last years result (+5.6) you can safely add Bradley to that list. 

That's the group of guys I would be most hessitant to trade out in a deal.  If I had to let one of them go it would be Sullinger, though if it's at all possible I would prefer to keep him because he's productive and he's a good kid. 

Now on that note Barbosa (-11.3), Courtney Lee (-2.2), Green (-3.1), Bass (-2.2), Wilox (-0.9) and Collins (-1.4) all have negative net ratings right now. 

Barbosa, Lee and Bass are the first guys I'd want to trade of that group.

Lee and Bass are both redundant once Bradley comes back, and both have $6M/year contracts that they aren't close to justifying. 

Barbosa is a capable volume scorer who can play multiple guard positions, and he's playing for practically nothing right now.  Given scoring ablity vs his low cost, he's a nice piece that could help to sway a deal.   

Green, Wilcox and Collins I'd keep if possible.  Green is not living up to his pay but he's the only legit backup SF we have, and he's the only legit scorer outside of Terry that we have coming off our bench.  Contrary to popular believe we are NOT better off with Kris Joseph at the backup SF spot. 

Wilcox is cheap and has proven he can be productive when playing alongside Rondo so I don't mind him being around. 

Collins has dramatically improved since he has been starting, with his net rating going from something like a minus 20, to a minus 1.4 - he's giving us decent effort now.  He's also the only legit 7 footer on our active roster and has about zero trade value, so I see no point in trading him out.

P.s.

Yes I know these stats don't tell everything, but they give some indication of a players value regardless.

[Lightskinsmurf]

Lee can compensate for not having Bradley, there is no one that can give us what Cousins would give us.

This I very strongly disagree with.

The only difference in our starting lineup right now between this year and last year is that we havehad either  Terry or Lee (instead of Bradley) at the starting SG spot. Our defense from that starting unit has been nowhere near as good as it was last season with Bradley in there.

Doc has tried toying with Lee as the starting SG (as he likes Terry's scoring off the bench) but when Lee has started our team has looked considerably worse.

I can't see any evidence (statistical or eye test) to suggest that Lee can even come close to making up for what we'd lose if Bradley was gone.  Lee is nowhere near the defender Bradley was last season, while Bradley was also more consistent offensively as well.

Yeah definitely agree with you here. If you want to trade bradley fine but don't you tell me LEE can give you anything even close to what bradley gives you on the defensive end. Lee has his moments but overall not even on the same planet as bradley defensively. Bradley = Elite, Lee = Solid