Doc Rivers is a Coward

[Tai]

For the people criticizing Sheed, hasn't Sheed had two technicals rescinded by the league?

[EJPLAYA]

The reason why Doc never calls out Pierce, Allen, KG, Wallace, etc, is because those guys are all "above the coach." No one likes to hear it, and I don't even like to say it, but it is true. It is the way of the NBA.

Everyone plays favorites, even on the high school level. The only difference between high school, college, and the pros is that preferential treatment in the former two is usually based on skills, whereas the latter is based on a player's salary.

Often the case, yes. I would include Rondo in that group as well. Doc could rip him to shreds at times for games where he plays sloppy defense or doesn't bring it. He gets a pass as well.

In your example though (and including Rondo) there isn't a player on the Celtics that has more talent than those 5. If one of them were less talented then there is an argument there, but all 5 of those guys are by far our most skilled players and so should get the pass.

Doc has been very critical of Rondo.  He has called him out many times publically for his mistakes. 

He has made some comments about areas where Rondo needed to improve, but he has never gone as far as to bench the guy or tell him that he isn't at the level where he can do things that the stars can do. There have been many times where I felt Rondo was not giving his all or doing stupid things where a little sit down next to the coach would have been appropriate. He doesn't do it though. (I do agree not to the same level of allowance as the older guys though)

  There was one or two games earlier this season that Eddie finished the game because Doc didn't like the way he was playing, like the Nets game. And, by the same token, Davis doesn't get benched for doing stupid things.

  I also don't think that Doc shares many of the criticisms of Rondo that show up repeatedly on this board.

That is true. I do remember that now that you say that. In fact, I remember a couple games in Doc's first year where he sat PP when he wasn't doing that. It baffles me how Davis is above that. It could truly be that Doc tries to do different things with different players. Maybe public humiliation is BBD's thing.

I think Doc has a problem with Rondo's lazy play at times, however decides that the overall improvements in his game outweigh them. It is kind of sad that Rondo doesn't have a Larry Bird type attitude. If he did he would be in the top 2-3 Pg's in the league. Pretty sad that a guy has to be pushed into giving it 100% on and off the floor. Especially when he could be one of the great ones.

[More Banners]

Doc needs to get different things out of different players, and is trying to push different buttons, I think.

He's going to need the elderly vets to have some throwback moments in the playoffs, and doesn't want to grate on them by griping all the time about the cover sheet on their TPS reports.  When the time comes, he's counting on them hitting their mark and performing.

BBD is another case, as he's still learning how to be effective and help the team.  BBD is an emotional/energy player, so getting frustrated and doing stupid things is an appropriate reason to get on him since it pretty much indicates he's boiling over and becoming useless.  FWIW, going 1 on 3 against longer/taller players is a good reason to get on him, too (just in case Doc reads CB...).

For some reason, BBD still isn't sure of his role, or that he is a role player.

[Andy Jick]

Coaching professional sports is more about managing egos (from the perspective of the head coach) than managing x's and o's.  assistant coaches are the "hands on" guys, whereas the head man is kind of like a CEO of the basketball team...

With that said, I have no problem with Doc's comments.  Coaching is not a "one size fits all" proposition.  If you've ever played a team sport you would know that certain guys get perks that others do not...it's earned.  Personally, I believe that there are things that Doc knows (like in the 90% range) that we here know absolutely NOTHING about.  Glen Davis is indeed a crybaby, a bit odd, and it's also not fair to question his desire to take care of his body and hone his game.  He doesn't appear to show any signs of progressing, as he's basically the same player he was, and it could be possibly said he's taken a few steps backwards.

Glen Davis is highly emotional, but he has to know when to keep them in check.  The refs will look at him differently than Garnett, and rightly so. 

Doc is not a coward nor a hypocrite...  He simply calls them as he sees them, and he has YEARS in this league.  I think Doc knows what he's talking about.  For as successful as he is, even with a championship under his belt, it seems as if people here still will not trust in his judgment and I find that a bit comical...  I think what Doc is saying is that it's time for Glen Davis to man up, play smart, and get his head out of his hind-end and play basketball...

[Rondo_is_better]

I am probably a little late to post this since the incident happened a few days ago, but this to me was so upsetting.

"You don’t get a tech in that situation," said a clearly annoyed Rivers, who immediately yanked Davis with Boston up 72-54 with 1:15 remaining in the third frame. "When you’re up 18 points, again, your team is struggling. You’re not [Kevin] Garnett or one of those guys. You don’t get the liberty to talk anyway to the officials. I don’t know, clearly, he earned it, I guess. But you just don’t get it. And he wasn’t playing well anyway, at that point. But I thought he was playing like the score and I just told him, he’s not at that point yet in his life where he can turn it on or off. And we need him to be an every-possession player. And I didn’t think he was that tonight."

Why does Doc say this kind of stuff? Is it because he is so concerned with being liked by the media? If so, that is pathetic. Rasheed Wallace has stolen 5 million dollars from the Celtics this year, mails it in every night, gets technicals like I get free refills at McDonalds. I have been so happy with Glen Davis lately. I know some on here do not like him, but he is playing w/ a chip on his shoulder and he is working his tail off. He is one of the few, if not only, offensive rebounding threats on the team.

Not only that, if there is a time to get a tech, i would think up 18 is not a bad time to get one. Sheed would do it with a minute to go in a game 7 if the mood hit him.


so to recap, if you are young, techs are bad. if you are a veteran, and you lead the league in techs every year, you are OK, and we will camp on your doorstep the day free agency starts and do all we can to get you to sign with us.

When you put it that way I'm pretty peeved too.

edit: no masked profanity

[CelticG1]

The reason why Doc never calls out Pierce, Allen, KG, Wallace, etc, is because those guys are all "above the coach." No one likes to hear it, and I don't even like to say it, but it is true. It is the way of the NBA.

Everyone plays favorites, even on the high school level. The only difference between high school, college, and the pros is that preferential treatment in the former two is usually based on skills, whereas the latter is based on a player's salary.

Often the case, yes. I would include Rondo in that group as well. Doc could rip him to shreds at times for games where he plays sloppy defense or doesn't bring it. He gets a pass as well.

In your example though (and including Rondo) there isn't a player on the Celtics that has more talent than those 5. If one of them were less talented then there is an argument there, but all 5 of those guys are by far our most skilled players and so should get the pass.

Doc has been very critical of Rondo.  He has called him out many times publically for his mistakes. 

He has made some comments about areas where Rondo needed to improve, but he has never gone as far as to bench the guy or tell him that he isn't at the level where he can do things that the stars can do. There have been many times where I felt Rondo was not giving his all or doing stupid things where a little sit down next to the coach would have been appropriate. He doesn't do it though. (I do agree not to the same level of allowance as the older guys though)

To be fair though it wasn't like there was anyway someone could realistically fill in for Rondo even in spot minutes to make a point. Doc knew it and Rondo knew it so there wasn't much he could do. If Doc went too far over the line then there is the risk of us getting screwed over. In Baby's case Doc is making it blatantly obvious that he is not afraid to say certain things about him. People such as Williams and Sheed are more than capable of filling in for Baby so it is a lot less risk to call out Davis than Rondo.

Actually if I were in Doc's shoes I would look at it the reverse. Since he doesn't have anyone who can come in and fill in at a remotely close level to Rondo, it is even more important that he make him play right. If a 1-1 conversation off the floor doesn't do that then you send a lot bigger message when you sit him. It shows the team that no one is bigger than the team, and also makes it that much easier to quickly re-insert him. Allowing Rondo to think he is too important to discipline doesn't help. In 3-4 years Rondo will be like PP, KG, Ray, etc where you no longer have that option. Good thought though. I see where you are coming from.

Touche and tp. I can't really argue with that approach.

[footey]

Maybe he is a hypocrite, but I don't think I would call him a coward.  

Agreed. Coward is too strong a word.  Doc is hypocritical in dealing with vets vs. young guys. Almost every coach is, even Phil Jackson, who would look the other way when Pippen or Rodman got out of line, but would bust chops on his young guys.

[Andy Jick]

Maybe he is a hypocrite, but I don't think I would call him a coward.  

Agreed. Coward is too strong a word.  Doc is hypocritical in dealing with vets vs. young guys. Almost every coach is, even Phil Jackson, who would look the other way when Pippen or Rodman got out of line, but would bust chops on his young guys.

...and the problem you have with this is...?  it's not hypocrisy - it's called reality.

news flash: even RED AUERBACH did this...

[barefacedmonk]

Doc is not a coward or a hypocrite. He is a coach.....and he is doing what he needs to do to keep so many egos in check.

[liam]

Doc is not a coward or a hypocrite. He is a coach.....and he is doing what he needs to do to keep so many egos in check.

No one knows what's going on with Doc and the players because they keep almost everything to themselves. No one can coach a championship team and not be at least a very good coach. Also coaches don't win games players do. A coach can lose a game but only the players can win them. Doc out coached Phil Jackson in the NBA finals. Did you see Phil after game five say" This is not over, this is not over..." cocking back a tear. It was beautiful because everyone including Phil new it was over.
So you have to know who you can push and who to leave alone. Who too bench and who to play. Being an NBA coach is a hard job and injuries make it much harder. Doc has coached this team through injuries for two years and the team is still playing at a high level. This team maybe or maybe not be a championship squad, but I for one think Docs doing a good job this year. I think he needs to get his rotation worked out but he's got new players to work in and lots of game hours missed by key players.

[CoachBo]

Really don't have any problem with any coach getting on a very limited, hyper-emotional player like Davis.

[fairweatherfan]

Maybe he is a hypocrite, but I don't think I would call him a coward.  

Agreed. Coward is too strong a word.  Doc is hypocritical in dealing with vets vs. young guys. Almost every coach is, even Phil Jackson, who would look the other way when Pippen or Rodman got out of line, but would bust chops on his young guys.

I'm not even sure how it's hypocritical - hypocritical is saying one thing and doing another.  Doc is saying "the vets get leeway that the young players don't", and that's how he's acting too. 

It's a double standard for sure, and it's arguable if it's a good idea or not, but it isn't hypocritical or cowardly.

[Fafnir]

Maybe he is a hypocrite, but I don't think I would call him a coward.  

Agreed. Coward is too strong a word.  Doc is hypocritical in dealing with vets vs. young guys. Almost every coach is, even Phil Jackson, who would look the other way when Pippen or Rodman got out of line, but would bust chops on his young guys.

I'm not even sure how it's hypocritical - hypocritical is saying one thing and doing another.  Doc is saying "the vets get leeway that the young players don't", and that's how he's acting too. 

It's a double standard for sure, and it's arguable if it's a good idea or not, but it isn't hypocritical or cowardly.

Yeah, and the gold standard of Celtics coaches Red did this all the time. He talked about it pretty extensively in the books I've read about it.

I worry though whether or not that approach will work with this team.

[Chris]

Maybe he is a hypocrite, but I don't think I would call him a coward.  

Agreed. Coward is too strong a word.  Doc is hypocritical in dealing with vets vs. young guys. Almost every coach is, even Phil Jackson, who would look the other way when Pippen or Rodman got out of line, but would bust chops on his young guys.

I'm not even sure how it's hypocritical - hypocritical is saying one thing and doing another.  Doc is saying "the vets get leeway that the young players don't", and that's how he's acting too. 

It's a double standard for sure, and it's arguable if it's a good idea or not, but it isn't hypocritical or cowardly.

Good point.  Double Standard would be the correct word.  And I still do not think he is wrong to have that double standard.  While it might burn you every once in a while, more often than not, it works out for the best.

[BballTim]

  I din't even think it makes sense to criticize Doc for talking about the issue to the media. It would be one thing if he was discussing an incident that happened behind closed doors, or if he said, for instance, that they brought in Finley because Ray hasn't been puttin any effort into his practices. But everyone saw what happened, They saw what Davis did, and they saw that Doc benched him for the rest of the game. It wasn't exactly a state secret.