Patrick O'bryant

[albert]

albert, i disagree with you there.  the C's are not currently in the business of developing players.  they are in the business of winning.  to put POB out there w/no faith in him is to the detriment of the team.  if he can't play in practice then why would it be any different in a game?  and why would you do that if his mistakes could lead to a loss?  he needs to develop his game, improve his defense and grow up and that is not the responsibility of THIS C's coaching staff.  They were hired to win games not play scrubs in the hope that they'll improve.  lets be honest, the C's are a champioship caliber team w/o him and there are vet bigs out there that will either be bought out or traded once playoff races begin to for and most of them would love to join the C's. It'd be nice to see POB succeed but this is not 2005-2006.

If the C's aren't in the business of developing players what are they doing with TA Big Baby Perk et. al? Winning and developing players has seemed to be the driving force behind this year's team concept starting from the summer and key people just might not be fully buying into it this time around (remember KG saying "I can't do young"?). Or they might just be too tired to care, or something else altogether.

I agree though, Doc shouldn't just put POB out there for the hell of it, I think that developing his core competencies (help D, D/O schemes) is important first, and it's not known whether or not they're doing that. I'd like to think they (the coaching staff) are, because that's just what they do. They did it last year with everyone else, why not this year. Besides, it's a better long-term goal to develop our young players (the subject of countless threads) than keep on having to bank on vets who may or may not want to come to "win a ring." Look how well that turned out this summer... not as solid a prospect as people would think. Remember that it took both Pierce and Ray Ray during all star break, and the fact that PJ wanted a ring, and the fact that the team was doing well for him to come here.

[ILoveWalta]

These accusations that he's just plain lazy are ridiculous. In preseason games it looked like he was trying hard to get up and down the court, but the problem was just that his first step getting there wasn't fast enough, meaning he's a step or two behind still in terms of raw speed. If you do a raw speed comparison between him and Perk you'd see that they're pretty much about the same getting down the court - and Perk has been working on his body for how many years now? So he's still got upside there.

Two other things: as some other people have mentioned in past threads, he hasn't been trying enough in games to keep his place on the block, something which is obviously against the C's defensive philosophy/scheme (probably partially due to a lack of conditioning), and he hasn't really learned the system yet (or at least didn't show that he did during preseason when he was getting all that burn). That said I don't see why it would be the greatest idea to put him on the floor, especially during games like yesterday's when he could be more of a liability than help.

Even so I don't think that we should be totally down on him. There's always the possibility that he might be able to contribute, but it's not going to be a "solid" (i.e. somewhere between Pollard and PJ.. leaning towards the Pollard side) contribution until he gets more burn during the season and gets called out for missing his defensive assignments during games, IMO. 50% chance he pans out at this point, NOT 10% or less like some here would suggest.

First off, albert, this isn't meant specifically towards you but in people who make claims that players need more playing time in order for coaches to determine their ability to perform.

I've coached a couple of sports at the 10-14 year old age group. It was fairly easy for a neophyte coach like myself to see in practice and team scrimages who deserved the most playing time(remember that everyone gets PT at that level). Well, if I can do it so can professional coaches.

Doc, Coach T, and Clifford Ray can judge just what they think Patrick O'Bryant will contribute to this team on the cort in a game without putting him in a game by viewing and observing him in practices and scrimages. I'm sure of it.

I was never in a decade of coaching surprised but what I got on the field and court from my players after seeing what they gave me in practice. Not once. If POB isn't playing, it's because Doc and the rest of the coaches are convinced that, judging but what they have seen of him in pratice and team scrimages, the players in front of him are better equipped to positively affect the team than he is.

Players need to earn playing time at the high school level and above. They should never, ever be given playing time. It sends the wrong message.

I just hope if POB ever does see the floor it's because he has convinced Doc and the coaching staff that he deserved to be played and contribute.

Really vacant argument I expect from my parents - "How can my kid improve if you don't play him with the varsity?" - but not on an NBA roster.

Paddy's been lazy dating back to college, as I tried to explain here last summer when this little piece of dumpster diving took place. And you cannot coach effort.

A wise man once said:

"What are we talkin' bout?  Practice?  We talkin' bout practice man.  We talk... We talkin' bout practice.  We talkin' bout practice.  We ain't talkin' bout the game, we talkin' bout practice, man.  When you come into the arena, and you see me play, you see me play, don't you?  You see me give everything I got, right?  But we talkin' bout practice right now.  We talkin' bout practice.  (crowd laughs)  Man look, I hear you, its funny to me too.  I mean, its strange, its strange to me too.  But we talkin' bout practice man.  We not even talkin' bout the game, the actual game, when it matters.  We talkin' bout practice."



....sorry, couldn't resist

[cdif911]

The measuring stick for him right now should be the preseason. If he doesn't pan out I'll blame it on the coaching staff, not O'Bryant.

How so?  Just because a guy looks okay in a couple of preseason games doesn't mean he'll be able to play at regular season intensity.  Why is it Doc's / Clifford Ray's problem if O'Bryant continues to look like the bust he is? 

Excusing POB for not working hard is just enabling his bad behavior, which he has now demonstrated in three NBA seasons.

agreed with Roy - there's plenty of preseason heroes who go on to have horrible seasons, Acie Earl comes to mind - the play is different in preseason, and a guy like Paddy O may be able to get away with things, or play against guys who aren't quite top tier talent - if the coaching staff says the kid isn't ready, the kid isn't ready

[Andy Jick]

i knew we shouldn't have let kedrick brown get away so quickly...Mr. Summer League could have been one hell of a wingman next to Shaquille O'Bryant...

[albert]

The measuring stick for him right now should be the preseason. If he doesn't pan out I'll blame it on the coaching staff, not O'Bryant.

How so?  Just because a guy looks okay in a couple of preseason games doesn't mean he'll be able to play at regular season intensity.  Why is it Doc's / Clifford Ray's problem if O'Bryant continues to look like the bust he is? 

Excusing POB for not working hard is just enabling his bad behavior, which he has now demonstrated in three NBA seasons.

agreed with Roy - there's plenty of preseason heroes who go on to have horrible seasons, Acie Earl comes to mind - the play is different in preseason, and a guy like Paddy O may be able to get away with things, or play against guys who aren't quite top tier talent - if the coaching staff says the kid isn't ready, the kid isn't ready

I agree with that, but there's a difference between calling him a bust prematurely and saying he isn't ready. C's fans are quick to label people prematurely and that's understandable given our recent past. But I'm pretty confident that the staff is working with him to enable him to contribute.

If he doesn't see at least Big Baby-like minutes (in '08 terms) then I'd label him a bust and we can put more of the blame on him rather than the staff.

[greg683x]

I gotta side with the guys who say POB has gotta earn his playing time in practice.

It's really easy to say that this is just b/c "Doc doesnt like to play young guys."  But theres been so much hinted at in the media as to why POB isnt playing, that you almost cant use it as an excuse.  Besides, Doc played Big Baby last year.  I know thats just one example, but I think its a good one.  You can say all you want about Glen Davis, but whenever I watch him, he always looks like he's giving a 110%.  Im sure Doc wants to bury the message in his young guys that you have to EARN every single second you get on that court. 

Like other posters have said in this thread, you cant let a few preseason games dictate how much time a player is gonna get on the court.  It has to be determined by practice, and how much time a player is willing to put in to make himself better.  A legit backup center is glaring need for this team.  I find it really hard to believe that Doc would keep a player that is dedicated, working hard, and more than capable to fill a position of need on this team, on the bench simply b/c he is young, unproven, or whatever you want to call it.

Joe Forte use to put on good displays in summer league and preseason games, but the guy had a bad attitude, a bad temper, and in my personal opinion, is a complete nut case.  But we dont see all that in summer league or preseason, so its easy for us to complain about why hes not out there.

Were not the coaches and management that see what goes on behind the scenes, and Ive questioned Doc probably just as much as some of you have, but when it comes to hustle and play in practice, you have to give him the benefit of the doubt. 

[billysan]

POB hasnt had any burn yet and it's mid November.

Two possible scenarios:

1- He is lazy and isnt working hard. Doc will not play him until he shows the requisite effort.

2- He is still learning the Celtics plays and is not up to par conditioning wise.

POB was a source of hope for me in the preseason. I let myself believe that maybe we had found a worthy reclammation project. That we had 'stolen' this kid from Nellie because Danny Ainge saw something in him that Golden State was missing.

I still see a guy who has half court type(speed) athleticism. He wants to be a finesse player and that appears to be his game, but isnt fast enough. He has the speed of a half court banger but not the physical or mental makeup. He lacks some toughness for a big man IMO.

Will he improve? Only time will tell. I think we cut our losses with him if he is a POS after a season working with Clifford Ray and our conditioning staff. Right now, the fact that undersized Powe, Davis and Scalabrine are seeing all of his minutes is starting to speak volumes. We clearly need bigman depth and if he was progressing at all, he would be playing IMO. Even a couple of minutes per game would be encouraging.

[CoachBo]

WADR, I saw O'Blount multiple times in college, out here in the middle of the Missouri Valley, and he was NOT dominant. That is an absolute myth. He had a couple of decent NCAA games that fooled people into thinking he was a lottery talent - which he clearly was not.

He was the same player you're seeing - ambivalent, not terribly basketball-smart, lazy.

[Edgar]

WADR, I saw O'Blount multiple times in college, out here in the middle of the Missouri Valley, and he was NOT dominant. That is an absolute myth. He had a couple of decent NCAA games that fooled people into thinking he was a lottery talent - which he clearly was not.

He was the same player you're seeing - ambivalent, not terribly basketball-smart, lazy.

with terrible hands
and ugly face

[bucknersrevenge]

WADR, I saw O'Blount multiple times in college, out here in the middle of the Missouri Valley, and he was NOT dominant. That is an absolute myth. He had a couple of decent NCAA games that fooled people into thinking he was a lottery talent - which he clearly was not.

He was the same player you're seeing - ambivalent, not terribly basketball-smart, lazy.

with terrible hands
and ugly face

For the most part I'm in complete agreement that O'Bryant hasn't shown enough to prove he deserves burn right now. I'll give Doc the benefit of the doubt and assume Patrick still needs to work on giving a more consistent effort. That said I'm not ready to write him off just yet. Ryan Gomes was a guy who was considered lazy early on and not good enough defensively o get burn. But later on he got a chance to show what he could do and he played. Admittedly that was on a 24-win team so it's not like Doc had many options but I'm willing to give Patrick a little longer.

Some seem willing to write off Giddens so quickly just because he's a bit behind Walker(who to some but not all can do no wrong). Both guys have talent. If they don't show the required effort I can accept that they have to go but I don't think we're there yet.

[kw10]

These accusations that he's just plain lazy are ridiculous. In preseason games it looked like he was trying hard to get up and down the court, but the problem was just that his first step getting there wasn't fast enough, meaning he's a step or two behind still in terms of raw speed. If you do a raw speed comparison between him and Perk you'd see that they're pretty much about the same getting down the court - and Perk has been working on his body for how many years now? So he's still got upside there.

Two other things: as some other people have mentioned in past threads, he hasn't been trying enough in games to keep his place on the block, something which is obviously against the C's defensive philosophy/scheme (probably partially due to a lack of conditioning), and he hasn't really learned the system yet (or at least didn't show that he did during preseason when he was getting all that burn). That said I don't see why it would be the greatest idea to put him on the floor, especially during games like yesterday's when he could be more of a liability than help.

Even so I don't think that we should be totally down on him. There's always the possibility that he might be able to contribute, but it's not going to be a "solid" (i.e. somewhere between Pollard and PJ.. leaning towards the Pollard side) contribution until he gets more burn during the season and gets called out for missing his defensive assignments during games, IMO. 50% chance he pans out at this point, NOT 10% or less like some here would suggest.

I havn't seen POB play much. But sounds to me, he needs to live in the gym for strength (core) and conditioning. You don't need to be an athlete or a scientist to see results there. All you need is hardwork.

Maybe get him in a locked room with KG after a bad loss with the Cs gettin out-rebounded and out-hustled, that might set his mind straight.

[nickagneta]

Let's see if I have some of the assumptions down:

POB is slow = he just doesn't have a good first step or two but he can still beat Perk down the floor

POB doesn't get good position = Clifford Ray isn't giving him enough time or teaching him well enough

POB isn't rotating on defense = Tom Thibodeau hasn't made enough time in his schedule to properly teach POB

POB isn't playing overall good defense = Doc Rivers isn't stopping practice and pointing out to POB what he is doing wrong

POB isn't giving a good effort = POB is being mistreated by the coaches leading to an unmotivated POB

POB isn't playing = Doc doesn't know how to coach properly

Others claiming their experiences say you have to earn your playing time in practice = our coaching dynamics are vastly different to that which should be used for POB

POB just isn't as good as any other player = every player should be treated differently to succeed and in order to succeed with POB a coach must be willing to play him and try to win even though POB is severely hurting the team while he is playing.

If I ever had that philosophy in the training and employing of employees under me I would have been fired as my boss or lost my business. Unless O'Bryant's real last name is Grousbek, I doubt that philosophy will be used for POB.

[greg683x]

WADR, I saw O'Blount multiple times in college, out here in the middle of the Missouri Valley, and he was NOT dominant. That is an absolute myth. He had a couple of decent NCAA games that fooled people into thinking he was a lottery talent - which he clearly was not.

He was the same player you're seeing - ambivalent, not terribly basketball-smart, lazy.

with terrible hands
and ugly face

For the most part I'm in complete agreement that O'Bryant hasn't shown enough to prove he deserves burn right now. I'll give Doc the benefit of the doubt and assume Patrick still needs to work on giving a more consistent effort. That said I'm not ready to write him off just yet. Ryan Gomes was a guy who was considered lazy early on and not good enough defensively o get burn. But later on he got a chance to show what he could do and he played. Admittedly that was on a 24-win team so it's not like Doc had many options but I'm willing to give Patrick a little longer.

Some seem willing to write off Giddens so quickly just because he's a bit behind Walker(who to some but not all can do no wrong). Both guys have talent. If they don't show the required effort I can accept that they have to go but I don't think we're there yet.

I agree.  I dont want my post a bit earlier to be confusing.  Others have called POB a bust in this thread, I havent, nor am I ready to.  What I dont agree with is that we should just play POB just to play him right now b/c he might fill a position of need if he "feels" like putting out a 100% effort.  I dont agree with giving players that kind of power.  When I say that power, Im talking about the type of power where they feel like they can play hard and work hard when THEY want to, and you cant do anything about it because you need them.  I think the final jury on POB is still out and like this poster said, sometimes it takes players a few years to "get it."  Gerald Green looks like hes finally starting to get it.  Am I optomistic that he will?  Honestly, no.  But Im not ready to call him a bust and waive him yet.

[cordobes]

The measuring stick for him right now should be the preseason. If he doesn't pan out I'll blame it on the coaching staff, not O'Bryant.

All right: he's not NBA material. He didn't show anything in the pre-season and I looked for it quite carefully. A fancy pass, an  alley-oop, a couple of hooks from the baseline and jumpers from the elbow and shot-blocks when refs are not calling defensive 3 seconds don't make up for the very limited skill-set he displayed in almost every aspect of the game. If he sucks because he's lazy and doesn't want to learn, or because he has been badly coached so far or because of genetics and he simply doesn't have the ability to learn is anyone's guess.

Players can improve and develop their games. But don't fool yourselves thinking that POB is skilled and the only reason he doesn't play is because he doesn't give the effort or is lazy practicing. The last time I saw him he simply wasn't much better than John Oates.

[nickagneta]

The measuring stick for him right now should be the preseason. If he doesn't pan out I'll blame it on the coaching staff, not O'Bryant.

All right: he's not NBA material. He didn't show anything in the pre-season and I looked for it quite carefully. A fancy pass, an  alley-oop, a couple of hooks from the baseline and jumpers from the elbow and shot-blocks when refs are not calling defensive 3 seconds doesn't make up for the very limited skill-set he displayed in almost every aspect of the game. If he sucks because he's lazy and doesn't want to learn, or because he has been badly coached so far or because of genetics and he simply doesn't have the ability to learn is anyone's guess.

Players can improve and develop their games. But don't foul yourselves thinking that POB is skilled and the only reason he doesn't play is because he doesn't give the effort or is lazy practicing. The last time I saw him he simply wasn't much better than John Oates.

John Oates? You mean the singer that looked like a 70's p0rn star?? Geesh I would have guess Darryl Hall was the basketball player in that duo!!;)

P.S. Yeah I know the guy at BC!!! Just having fun!!