What would it take to get Nerlens Noel?

[KeepRondo]

You can definitely see how a PG makes a difference on a guy like Noel.  He's quick and has hops.  His offensive game is very limited.  Just watch the highlights from his 20 point game the other night to see what I'm talking about:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qakNknbU8o

There's a reason why Ish Smith's arrival last year resulted in Noel's offensive stats spiking.   It's the same reason they have spiked over the last 3 games.   It definitely reminds me of when Tyson Chandler's stats spiked playing with CHris Paul (alley-oop party)... but we're talking about Ish freakin Smith here... he's barely a starting PG.    Gives you an idea of how bad the surrounding talent on Philly has been that it takes Ish Smith to unlock some potential in Noel. 

So what are we really talking about here?  Noel's floor is rich man's Tyson Chandler?  I'd take it.  He might actually already be a better defender than Tyson... We haven't seen NOel in a real NBA system yet. 

Here's his highlights in the game prior to last against Utah when he had 18 points, 5 blocks and 2 steals.  You still see Ish Smith setting him up for basically all of his points, but flashes of his potential are there... you actually see him hit a couple mid-range shots.  You can also see how Noel roaming the paint without Okafor results in defensive plays:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWPyKuCKw88

From watching both of those videos you also get a sense of why Noel is struggling with Okafor clogging the middle.   Okafor takes up a lot of space and when they feed him inside he's an old-school post-up player... Noel's success seems to be mostly coming on fast breaks and lots of movement.   Defensively, he needs to be roaming around the paint.   It's really clear those two can't play together.   I'd love to see Zach Lowe or someone do a breakdown video of why Noel has been struggling this year.   So much of it has to do with system and players surrounding him.

So what's Smart's floor?  Rich man's Tony Allen? 

I agree both of those guys have a lot of potential.  I agree both of those guys have a lot of flaws.  I'd rather have Noel.   The common argument is that "the league is going small!... you don't need a center!"... it's not true at all, though.   As the league goes smaller it means you need scoring from your small guys.  Smart (so far) hasn't displayed scoring competence.  Also, as the league goes smaller it just heightens the need for a superior interior defender.   SO many of these little guys are able to get into the paint whereas in the past the rules made it a lot more difficult.   You need someone at the rim challenging shots.   Guys like Noel will always have value in this league.  What you might not need these days is a classic post-up player like Okafor.  I don't blame Philly for not biting on a trade yet... they are sitting on a really difficult decision.  They might actually be better off keeping Noel and selling okafor for a fool's ransom.

It would be great if Noel's floor was a rich-man's version of a player that won DPOY, but that's a lot more likely to be his ceiling than his floor

I guess we have to see how Nerlens looks in 8 years... cuz Chandler didn't win DPOY until he was 29 years old in his 11th NBA season.  He wasn't much of anything his first three years.

Nerlens' floor is rich man's Tyson Chandler.   

Actually kind of interesting... I was curious how much of a difference Ish Smith actually made in Nerlens.   

They haven't started a ton of games together yet.  It's a small sample size.  In total, there have been 13 games in which Noel has started next to Ish Smith and played at least 25 minutes.  His stats during those 13 games:  15.7 points, 11.1 rebounds, 2 assists, 2.3 steals, 2.2 blocks with 56% shooting in 33mpg.

Do you just say things simply for shock value? You say thing favoring Noel (like him not being able to play alongside Okafor) and then say "Chandler wasn't anything his first 3 years", which totally dismisses the fact he came out of HS and played alongside a Okafor type player in Curry.

The reality is that Chandler is Noel's ceiling whether you care to realize it or not. Noel will seriously need to improve his post D and and rebounding to ever be on par with Chandler. This also doesn't take into account that Chandler is much larger and actually has great hands unlike stone hands Noel.

Curry was a bust. I don't get the comparison to Okafor.

[alldaboston]

Don't you guys feel Noel is a bit overrated on this forum? From what I've seen, the only time he has success is with Ish Smith, and even then, all he does is alley oops and putbacks.

In my opinion, we have a similar player in Mickey. Don't get me wrong, Noel is definitely the better player, but it can be argued that Mickey already does a lot of the things Noel does, and some more things too. He's a very good shot blocker, finishes oops like Noel as well. He also has good shooting range, and can put his head down and drive on occasion too.

What's your guys thoughts?

[CelticSince83]

Don't you guys feel Noel is a bit overrated on this forum? From what I've seen, the only time he has success is with Ish Smith, and even then, all he does is alley oops and putbacks.

In my opinion, we have a similar player in Mickey. Don't get me wrong, Noel is definitely the better player, but it can be argued that Mickey already does a lot of the things Noel does, and some more things too. He's a very good shot blocker, finishes oops like Noel as well. He also has good shooting range, and can put his head down and drive on occasion too.

What's your guys thoughts?

I think the fascination with Noel is that the Sixers have a logjam at center, and we haven't had a legit rim protector in half a decade.  Considering our trade assets, he would be somewhat easily obtainable.  He's worth a prospect and a first rounder or two that we don't currently have roster space for.  Am I certain he will be an all star?  No.  But I think you could get him in a deal that doesn't really sacrifice the overall rebuild. 

To be honest, I think the fascination with Mickey is more confusing than anything Nerlens related.

[obnoxiousmime]

Don't you guys feel Noel is a bit overrated on this forum? From what I've seen, the only time he has success is with Ish Smith, and even then, all he does is alley oops and putbacks.

In my opinion, we have a similar player in Mickey. Don't get me wrong, Noel is definitely the better player, but it can be argued that Mickey already does a lot of the things Noel does, and some more things too. He's a very good shot blocker, finishes oops like Noel as well. He also has good shooting range, and can put his head down and drive on occasion too.

What's your guys thoughts?

I think the fascination with Noel is that the Sixers have a logjam at center, and we haven't had a legit rim protector in half a decade.  Considering our trade assets, he would be somewhat easily obtainable.  He's worth a prospect and a first rounder or two that we don't currently have roster space for.  Am I certain he will be an all star?  No.  But I think you could get him in a deal that doesn't really sacrifice the overall rebuild. 

To be honest, I think the fascination with Mickey is more confusing than anything Nerlens related.

As I've said before, I really think the Sixers were showcasing Okafor and that they'd rather deal him than Noel. Now that Hinkie no longer has final say and the goal is to not be such a laughingstock, they've dealt for Ish Smith who they never should have let go, placed Okafor on the bench, and put Jerami Grant back at 4 where he is more comfortable. Sure they're still not going to be a great team but they're not 1-29 bad anymore.

I think that Celtics fans obsessed with trade ideas may have to start proposing Okafor deals now. Um, anybody? Crickets...

[CelticSince83]

Don't you guys feel Noel is a bit overrated on this forum? From what I've seen, the only time he has success is with Ish Smith, and even then, all he does is alley oops and putbacks.

In my opinion, we have a similar player in Mickey. Don't get me wrong, Noel is definitely the better player, but it can be argued that Mickey already does a lot of the things Noel does, and some more things too. He's a very good shot blocker, finishes oops like Noel as well. He also has good shooting range, and can put his head down and drive on occasion too.

What's your guys thoughts?

I think the fascination with Noel is that the Sixers have a logjam at center, and we haven't had a legit rim protector in half a decade.  Considering our trade assets, he would be somewhat easily obtainable.  He's worth a prospect and a first rounder or two that we don't currently have roster space for.  Am I certain he will be an all star?  No.  But I think you could get him in a deal that doesn't really sacrifice the overall rebuild. 

To be honest, I think the fascination with Mickey is more confusing than anything Nerlens related.

As I've said before, I really think the Sixers were showcasing Okafor and that they'd rather deal him than Noel. Now that Hinkie no longer has final say and the goal is to not be such a laughingstock, they've dealt for Ish Smith who they never should have let go, placed Okafor on the bench, and put Jerami Grant back at 4 where he is more comfortable. Sure they're still not going to be a great team but they're not 1-29 bad anymore.

I think that Celtics fans obsessed with trade ideas may have to start proposing Okafor deals now. Um, anybody? Crickets...

If they offered JO I wouldn't hang up right away.  Wouldn't go out of my way to get him either.  There's an equal number of Celtics fans who talk about Smart-RJ- Mickey as if it's the next Parker-Manu-Duncan. 

[LarBrd33]

Don't you guys feel Noel is a bit overrated on this forum?

I think he's oddly underrated.  I think it's a combo of him being from Mass and him playing for the 76ers.  He's a top-level prospect and there's some people on this forum who want to compare him to (insert random role player).

[Ilikesports17]

Don't you guys feel Noel is a bit overrated on this forum?

I think he's oddly underrated.  I think it's a combo of him being from Mass and him playing for the 76ers.  He's a top-level prospect and there's some people on this forum who want to compare him to (insert random role player).

Well Ford and Pelton ranked him as the 8th best sophomore behind smart (who was 5th in one ranking and 6th in the other)

Their rankings were pretty awful all around in my opinion but it's worth mentioning that not everyone outside Boston sees this guy as a "franchise center" or a guy whose "floor is a rich mans Tyson chandler"

[LarBrd33]

Don't you guys feel Noel is a bit overrated on this forum?

I think he's oddly underrated.  I think it's a combo of him being from Mass and him playing for the 76ers.  He's a top-level prospect and there's some people on this forum who want to compare him to (insert random role player).

Well Ford and Pelton ranked him as the 8th best sophomore behind smart (who was 5th in one ranking and 6th in the other)

Their rankings were pretty awful all around in my opinion but it's worth mentioning that not everyone outside Boston sees this guy as a "franchise center" or a guy whose "floor is a rich mans Tyson chandler"

Most publications had Noel in the top 3 last year amongst rookies.  Some ranked him behind Mirotic.  His defensive impact last year is underrated on this forum.

[Ilikesports17]

Don't you guys feel Noel is a bit overrated on this forum?

I think he's oddly underrated.  I think it's a combo of him being from Mass and him playing for the 76ers.  He's a top-level prospect and there's some people on this forum who want to compare him to (insert random role player).

Well Ford and Pelton ranked him as the 8th best sophomore behind smart (who was 5th in one ranking and 6th in the other)

Their rankings were pretty awful all around in my opinion but it's worth mentioning that not everyone outside Boston sees this guy as a "franchise center" or a guy whose "floor is a rich mans Tyson chandler"

Most publications had Noel in the top 3 last year amongst rookies.  Some ranked him behind Mirotic.  His defensive impact last year is underrated on this forum.

Sure but I don't think it's exclusive to this blog or anything like that.

[Eddie20]

Don't you guys feel Noel is a bit overrated on this forum?

I think he's oddly underrated.  I think it's a combo of him being from Mass and him playing for the 76ers.  He's a top-level prospect and there's some people on this forum who want to compare him to (insert random role player).

Well Ford and Pelton ranked him as the 8th best sophomore behind smart (who was 5th in one ranking and 6th in the other)

Their rankings were pretty awful all around in my opinion but it's worth mentioning that not everyone outside Boston sees this guy as a "franchise center" or a guy whose "floor is a rich mans Tyson chandler"

Most publications had Noel in the top 3 last year amongst rookies.  Some ranked him behind Mirotic.  His defensive impact last year is underrated on this forum.

So what? Their rankings are based on "future potential". So clearly they don't share your ridiculous expectations.

Since you're a huge fan and cited his defensive impact can you please breakdown how he does in the following areas:

* Post up D
* Rebounding in traffic

[Rondo9]

Would anyone trade Marcus Smart for Jahil Oakfor?

[LarBrd33]

Don't you guys feel Noel is a bit overrated on this forum?

I think he's oddly underrated.  I think it's a combo of him being from Mass and him playing for the 76ers.  He's a top-level prospect and there's some people on this forum who want to compare him to (insert random role player).

Well Ford and Pelton ranked him as the 8th best sophomore behind smart (who was 5th in one ranking and 6th in the other)

Their rankings were pretty awful all around in my opinion but it's worth mentioning that not everyone outside Boston sees this guy as a "franchise center" or a guy whose "floor is a rich mans Tyson chandler"

Most publications had Noel in the top 3 last year amongst rookies.  Some ranked him behind Mirotic.  His defensive impact last year is underrated on this forum.

Their rankings are based on "future potential".

Uh.  No.  their rankings were based on who was the best rookie last year.   Plenty liked Noel:  http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nerlens-noel-the-other-rookie-of-the-year/

Eddie, did you grow up around Noel or something?  Did he run over your dog on his bicycle or something?   You seem to be unreasonably down on him.

[LarBrd33]

Would anyone trade Marcus Smart for Jahil Oakfor?

That's what makes that bogus "Smart + #16 for #3 + Noel" rumor so absurd.

There's no rational basketball mind that would conceivably have Marcus Smart as equal trade value for Okafor (the #3 pick) heading into the draft this year.  It's a completely ridiculous concept.   Heading into the draft, we heard reports of Boston prepping a "godfather offer" for the #3 pick if Okafor was available that would have included Marcus Smart and multiple picks.  We know that Boston was ready to give up 6 draft picks (4 first rounders including a Brooklyn 1st) just to move up to #9...  Are you seriously telling me that Ainge felt Marcus SMart alone was enough for Okafor?  C'mon...

And then the second half of that trade... the #16 pick for Nerlens Noel?... a guy who was widely seen as the 2nd or 3rd best rookie last year?   THat's just a straight-up insult offer.   Even if your opinion of NOel is dirt low, you have to admit that's a completely ridiculous offer.  The #16 pick for a kid some felt was the rookie of the year?  C'mon...

I don't believe Ainge actually offered Smart + #16 for #3 and Noel.  Bill Simmons said that trade rumor was a joke.  Media (particularly Boston-based) ran with it and it showed up in a few blogs, but if that was really Ainge's offer, he's a troll. 

What we do know is that Brian Windhorst was on ESPN Sportscenter Thursday morning before the draft and mentioned Boston prepping a "monster offer" if Okafor slipped:

Okafor had been under consideration for the top pick to the Minnesota Timberwolves and the Los Angeles Lakers at No. 2. Should he get past them, Windhorst said the Celtics, with a bevy of assets, including the 16th and 28th picks tonight and future picks, will try to entice Philly with a monster package.
...
Windhorst said NBA executives that he's talked to think Celtics president of basketball operations Danny Ainge will make "a Godfather offer" - one that can't be refused - to the Sixers for Okafor. Windhorst mentioned Celtics point guard Marcus Smart being included in the offer.

So on one hand you have a plausible offer of Marcus SMart, #16, #28 and "future picks" for Okafor...

On the other hand you have a rumor (cited as a joke by Simmons) that suggests we made an insult offer of Smart + #16 for #3 and Noel.

I tend to think the first offer is more in line with what we actually offered.   Smart + #16 + #28 + other picks.   Considering we were offering #16 + #28 + Brooklyn 1st + another 1st + two more 2nds just to move up to #9, it's totally plausible that we threw in Smart to try to get Okafor at #3. 

Fans who want to dump on anything non-Celtic related will continue to cite the bogus Smart + #16 for Okafor and Noel rumor, but it lacks plausibility.  That's a bridge-burning type of trade offer if Ainge made that.

[Eddie20]

Don't you guys feel Noel is a bit overrated on this forum?

I think he's oddly underrated.  I think it's a combo of him being from Mass and him playing for the 76ers.  He's a top-level prospect and there's some people on this forum who want to compare him to (insert random role player).

Well Ford and Pelton ranked him as the 8th best sophomore behind smart (who was 5th in one ranking and 6th in the other)

Their rankings were pretty awful all around in my opinion but it's worth mentioning that not everyone outside Boston sees this guy as a "franchise center" or a guy whose "floor is a rich mans Tyson chandler"

Most publications had Noel in the top 3 last year amongst rookies.  Some ranked him behind Mirotic.  His defensive impact last year is underrated on this forum.

Their rankings are based on "future potential".

Uh.  No.  their rankings were based on who was the best rookie last year.   Plenty liked Noel:  http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nerlens-noel-the-other-rookie-of-the-year/

Eddie, did you grow up around Noel or something?  Did he run over your dog on his bicycle or something?   You seem to be unreasonably down on him.

I'm referring to the Ford/Pelton ranking.

You ignored the part of asking you to assess Noel. Do you even watch him play or are you just going off box score? Sounds like the latter the way you hype him up.

[Eddie20]

LB, you keep bringing up things in the past, but situations and player values are fluid. Okafor does not have the same value now as he did after winning the title. At this level, some of the issues that people thought would limit have come to fruition. There is concern on whether he is athletic enough, can defend his position, can defend the pnr, and if he can be part of an offense where he isn't the focal point of it.

So Pelton and Ford (impartial opinion) this week have ranked your two golden boys as part of rookie and sophmore based on future potential. What did they have?

* Both have Smart ahead of Noel
* Both have Noel #8
* Ford has Okafor #10
* Pelton has Okafor #8

Nice tank!