Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[mobilija]

Whether what White said is ominous or not, it still does not change the fact that Joe is an incompetent coach.

He is winning in spite of the team.

Joe is not an incompetent coach, and you know he has the NBA's best winning percentage of any coach, winning over 74 percent of the time.  You may not like his style or his approach to the game but his record disproves your statement that he is incompetent.  The bus does not drive itself.

Coach of the Month last month. 5th in Coach of the Year last season. It seems there are a lot of people who don’t see him as incompetent. Yes, the team is really good and would probably be good with other coaches. But that doesn’t make Mazzulla a bad coach. People are not changing their mind at this point I guess.

Yes, just because he's not the best does not mean he is the worst. I don't think there are any incompetent coaches at this level. None that casual fans can identify.

Also, there are "Fire CBS" and "Ime needs to go" threads here as well. Lets not kid ourselves, even if we had Spo, Nurse or Popovich people would have criticisms about them too. At some point, as @nickagneta used to say, it's on the players. The core needs to step up and get over the hump. Can't always be blaming the coaching or the system. For reference, even the Nuggets, Jokic and coach Malone dealt with this criticism until they officially won it all last season, now they are some "standard" for the NBA to follow. And I'm not mocking that, it's completely true. They got over the hump. But now it's on the C's players particularly the Jays to get over the hump and win Banner 18.

Well said, Phantom. TP

Awww that’s so mean…..give him a Real TP not some phantom TP.

Ba-Dum-Dum

[Big333223]

Steve Jones and Nekias Duncan just did an awards podcast and put Joe #1 and #2, respectively, on their (fake) COY ballots.

Of all the basketball media that's available, I think those guys are as solid as they come in terms of knowing what they're talking about, caring about basketball, and not trying to get attention with hot takes.

[Roy H.]

Bobby Manning: Joe Mazzulla said at least 3 times today that the playoffs aren’t that different from the regular season in terms of what wins games. Notes the only different is the environment and intensity around the games. 1 day ago – via Twitter RealBobManning

Agree?  Disagree?

At a basic level, it's obviously true.  "What wins games" is outscoring the other team.  Making buckets, limiting turnovers, rebounding the ball, playing defense.  But, is playoff basketball different?  And, is this underselling how gigantic the difference is in terms of environment/intensity?

[bdm860]

Bobby Manning: Joe Mazzulla said at least 3 times today that the playoffs aren’t that different from the regular season in terms of what wins games. Notes the only different is the environment and intensity around the games. 1 day ago – via Twitter RealBobManning

Agree?  Disagree?

At a basic level, it's obviously true.  "What wins games" is outscoring the other team.  Making buckets, limiting turnovers, rebounding the ball, playing defense.  But, is playoff basketball different?  And, is this underselling how gigantic the difference is in terms of environment/intensity?

Seems like a pretty standard answer to me.  It's probably something like "in the regular season we had to execute our offense, and everybody had to buy in and play hard on defense to win games and that's the same thing that's going to win us games in the post season."

And to me, even less concerning coming from a coach of a veteran playoff team who's advanced in the playoffs.  Like if Nurse, Doc, Spo, Kerr, Malone, Thibs, or Ham said this, I'd think nothing of it.  But if Daigneault or Mosley said it, I might think they're in for a rude awakening.

[bdm860]

Going into the playoffs, anybody willing to stake a claim on what they'd consider a good or bad coaching job?   
   
My preconceived take, first thinking about the Eastern Conference half of the playoffs (and of course assuming no major health issues pop up):   
   
If the Celtics go 12-3 or better, Joe probably deserves a lot of credit.   
If the Celtics have 12 wins, but between 4-6 losses, it can be really gray, the "Fire/Defend Joe" debate is still wide open.   
Anything less than 12 wins or 7 or more losses, Joe probably deserves a lot of blame/criticism.   
   
Then for the Finals piece, a lot muddier here, but I think I'd generally go:   
   
4-2 or better, great job Joe.   
4-3 or 3-4, gray area.   
2-4 or worse, Joe probably deserves a lot of blame/criticism.   
   
Of course these are just guidelines before we see any product on the floor.  And still plenty of room for no clear take (what if Celtics go 12-0 for the first 3 rounds but then 0-4 in the Finals against the Lakers missing both LeBron and AD, or Celtics go 12-9 but then 4-0 against a healthy Nuggets winning every game by double digits, or what if they lose in 1st round to Sixers in 7 but then Sixers go on to sweep everybody else with Embiid putting up prime Wilt numbers on the way to a championship...)   
   
Somewhat recent historical context from some champs/contenders:   
23 Nuggets: 12-3 then 4-1 for 16-4 total   
22 Warriors: 12-4  then 4-2 for 16-6 total   
21 Bucks: 12-5 then 4-2 for 16-7 total   
19 Raptors: 12-6 then 4-2  for 16-8 total   
19 Warriors: 12-4 then 2-4 for 14-8 total   
18 Warriors: 12-5 then 4-0 for 16-5 total   
17 Warriors: 12-0 then 4-1 for 16-1 total   
16 Warriors: 12-5 then 3-4 for 15-9 total   
15 Warriors: 12-3 then 4-2 for 16-5 total   
14 Spurs: 12-6 then 4-1 for 16-7 total   
14 Heat: 12-3 then 1-4 for 13-7 total   
13 Spurs: 12-2 then 3-4 for 15-6 total   
13 Heat: 12-4 then 4-3 for 16-7 total   
12 Heat: 12-6 then 4-1 for 16-7 total   
11 Heat: 12-3 then 2-4 for 14-7 total   
11 Mavs: 12-3 then 4-2 for 16-5 total   

[SparzWizard]

Here's one: if we lose either one or both the opening home games to a #8 seed then Joe deserves the immediate pitchfork.

Because we are 64-18 I expect the first round to end in 4 or 5 win a Celtics win.
For the second round, they should have no problem handling the Cavs and Magic who are both reeling. Celtics in 5.
The ECF depends. If it's the 76ers I fully expect 7 game series. Anyone else clear them out in 5 or 6.

[Vermont Green]

Going into the playoffs, anybody willing to stake a claim on what they'd consider a good or bad coaching job?   
   
My preconceived take, first thinking about the Eastern Conference half of the playoffs (and of course assuming no major health issues pop up):   
   
If the Celtics go 12-3 or better, Joe probably deserves a lot of credit.   
If the Celtics have 12 wins, but between 4-6 losses, it can be really gray, the "Fire/Defend Joe" debate is still wide open.   
Anything less than 12 wins or 7 or more losses, Joe probably deserves a lot of blame/criticism.   
   
Then for the Finals piece, a lot muddier here, but I think I'd generally go:   
   
4-2 or better, great job Joe.   
4-3 or 3-4, gray area.   
2-4 or worse, Joe probably deserves a lot of blame/criticism.   
   
Of course these are just guidelines before we see any product on the floor.  And still plenty of room for no clear take (what if Celtics go 12-0 for the first 3 rounds but then 0-4 in the Finals against the Lakers missing both LeBron and AD, or Celtics go 12-9 but then 4-0 against a healthy Nuggets winning every game by double digits, or what if they lose in 1st round to Sixers in 7 but then Sixers go on to sweep everybody else with Embiid putting up prime Wilt numbers on the way to a championship...)   
   
Somewhat recent historical context from some champs/contenders:   
23 Nuggets: 12-3 then 4-1 for 16-4 total   
22 Warriors: 12-4  then 4-2 for 16-6 total   
21 Bucks: 12-5 then 4-2 for 16-7 total   
19 Raptors: 12-6 then 4-2  for 16-8 total   
19 Warriors: 12-4 then 2-4 for 14-8 total   
18 Warriors: 12-5 then 4-0 for 16-5 total   
17 Warriors: 12-0 then 4-1 for 16-1 total   
16 Warriors: 12-5 then 3-4 for 15-9 total   
15 Warriors: 12-3 then 4-2 for 16-5 total   
14 Spurs: 12-6 then 4-1 for 16-7 total   
14 Heat: 12-3 then 1-4 for 13-7 total   
13 Spurs: 12-2 then 3-4 for 15-6 total   
13 Heat: 12-4 then 4-3 for 16-7 total   
12 Heat: 12-6 then 4-1 for 16-7 total   
11 Heat: 12-3 then 2-4 for 14-7 total   
11 Mavs: 12-3 then 4-2 for 16-5 total

This post illustrates why it is impossible to rate a coach based on record, playoffs or otherwise.  The Celtics are a good enough team that Mazzulla could coach badly, or be perceived to be coaching badly, but still win.  And if the team doesn't win or win as much as you expect, it is impossible to say to what degree coaching contributed to that.

Last season, MIA shot 43.4% from 3 in the ECF, BOS shot 30.3%.  For the season, MIA was 34.4%, BOS was 37.7%.  Yet this series went 7 games and BOS very likely could have won the series had Tatum not blown out his ankle right at the start of game 7.

So if the team shoots 30% from 3 in a series, yet the team gets to a game 7 in that series, is that good coaching or bad coaching?  Is 30% from 3 bad coaching or bad shooting?  BOS took 267 3s in the series, making 81.  Had they made even 10 more 3s, they would still be well below their season average, but they probably win the series.

The opinions have ranged from "Mazzulla was totally out coached", to "this is on the players, not the coach".  Good luck proving either position.  And further, even if the Celtics go 16-0 this playoff run, there will be posts that say they won in spite of Mazzulla.

My prediction and expectation is that the Celtics make the finals.  If they don't, many will blame the coach, it is natural, comes with the territory.  But I don't expect coaching to hold this team back.  Shooting 30% from 3 in a series could though.

[mobilija]

Here's one: if we lose either one or both the opening home games to a #8 seed then Joe deserves the immediate pitchfork.

Because we are 64-18 I expect the first round to end in 4 or 5 win a Celtics win.
For the second round, they should have no problem handling the Cavs and Magic who are both reeling. Celtics in 5.
The ECF depends. If it's the 76ers I fully expect 7 game series. Anyone else clear them out in 5 or 6.

So…anything resembling reasonable expectations and Joe should be fired. Got it!

[Roy H.]

Going into the playoffs, anybody willing to stake a claim on what they'd consider a good or bad coaching job?   
   
My preconceived take, first thinking about the Eastern Conference half of the playoffs (and of course assuming no major health issues pop up):   
   
If the Celtics go 12-3 or better, Joe probably deserves a lot of credit.   
If the Celtics have 12 wins, but between 4-6 losses, it can be really gray, the "Fire/Defend Joe" debate is still wide open.   
Anything less than 12 wins or 7 or more losses, Joe probably deserves a lot of blame/criticism.   
   
Then for the Finals piece, a lot muddier here, but I think I'd generally go:   
   
4-2 or better, great job Joe.   
4-3 or 3-4, gray area.   
2-4 or worse, Joe probably deserves a lot of blame/criticism.   
   
Of course these are just guidelines before we see any product on the floor.  And still plenty of room for no clear take (what if Celtics go 12-0 for the first 3 rounds but then 0-4 in the Finals against the Lakers missing both LeBron and AD, or Celtics go 12-9 but then 4-0 against a healthy Nuggets winning every game by double digits, or what if they lose in 1st round to Sixers in 7 but then Sixers go on to sweep everybody else with Embiid putting up prime Wilt numbers on the way to a championship...)   
   
Somewhat recent historical context from some champs/contenders:   
23 Nuggets: 12-3 then 4-1 for 16-4 total   
22 Warriors: 12-4  then 4-2 for 16-6 total   
21 Bucks: 12-5 then 4-2 for 16-7 total   
19 Raptors: 12-6 then 4-2  for 16-8 total   
19 Warriors: 12-4 then 2-4 for 14-8 total   
18 Warriors: 12-5 then 4-0 for 16-5 total   
17 Warriors: 12-0 then 4-1 for 16-1 total   
16 Warriors: 12-5 then 3-4 for 15-9 total   
15 Warriors: 12-3 then 4-2 for 16-5 total   
14 Spurs: 12-6 then 4-1 for 16-7 total   
14 Heat: 12-3 then 1-4 for 13-7 total   
13 Spurs: 12-2 then 3-4 for 15-6 total   
13 Heat: 12-4 then 4-3 for 16-7 total   
12 Heat: 12-6 then 4-1 for 16-7 total   
11 Heat: 12-3 then 2-4 for 14-7 total   
11 Mavs: 12-3 then 4-2 for 16-5 total

From my perspective, I just want a playoff run that results in 16 wins.  I don't really care how many of those wins are because of Joe , or in spite of Joe.  I want Joe to prove he's good enough to win a title.

It's sort of like Doc to me.  I think he was an average, or or even below average, strategic coach.  But, from the time he won a title until he asked to leave Boston, very few fans gave him a hard time. 

Incidentally, it's also why I think the Bucks made a huge mistake firing Budenholzer. Once a guy proves he can win, I think you need to be very careful replacing him with somebody else.

Obviously, the truth about whether Joe is good or bad is dependent on his actual decisions.  I just won't care all that much if we're hanging a banner. Extend the guy for another five years after that and I promise I won't complain.

[Big333223]

On his last podcast Zach Lowe said he'd have Joe #3 on his COY ballot (if he had a ballot this year) and called him one of the smartest defensive tacticians in the NBA (or something to that effect).

[Roy H.]

On an appearance with “Pardon My Take,” Mazzulla admitted he didn’t envision his Quizlet account being seen by the public like that. The archived version of the Quizlet information can still be found on the Internet depending on where you look.

“I didn’t see any of this coming,” Mazzulla said. “I just thought I was going to be the behind-the-bench (guy) for most of my career. That was kind of my introductory to people actually give a (expletive) about me thing, and I was kind of p---ed about it. When I made my Quizlet, I didn’t know how to make it private. I also didn’t think people were going to hack into it.”

Mazzulla explained further in that, back then, he worked closely with the Celtics rookies. So the Quizlet information was a way to not only teach the rookies but for himself considering he was coming from the Division II coaching level. That’s also representative of the jump Mazzulla made — he went from second row of the bench to the head guy in a flash.

“That was my way of learning the league because I came from DII to the NBA,” Mazzulla said. “And it was my way of building a relationship with the rookies that I worked with. Like how detailed can we be and what are all the different ways we can retrieve the information.”

Sometimes people just realize their own limitations.  Lol. 😂

[Roy H.]

Joe Mazzulla, after his superstar is dangerously blindsided in a game we're winning by 20 with about a minute left:

“I was kind of excited about the whole situation. I enjoyed watching it.”

Yeah, super exciting and enjoyable.  I bet Wyc was thrilled, too, watching his $300 million player getting knocked around like a pińata in garbage time.

[Roy H.]

Jared Weiss @JaredWeissNBA
about 42 minutes ago
Mark Daigneault, Chris Finch, and Jamahl Mosley are the finalists for Coach of the Year. No Joe Mazzulla,

[Who]

Jared Weiss @JaredWeissNBA
about 42 minutes ago
Mark Daigneault, Chris Finch, and Jamahl Mosley are the finalists for Coach of the Year. No Joe Mazzulla,

Yeah, they all had great years. No complaints with their nominations. Big fan of what all their teams accomplished this year and the role these coaches had in creating that. 

[ozgod]

Joe Mazzulla, after his superstar is dangerously blindsided in a game we're winning by 20 with about a minute left:

“I was kind of excited about the whole situation. I enjoyed watching it.”

Yeah, super exciting and enjoyable.  I bet Wyc was thrilled, too, watching his $300 million player getting knocked around like a pińata in garbage time.

Probably saw it wasnt as bad as it looked…if JT had gotten injured I’m sure he’d be singing a different tune