Author Topic: Ray Allen for Diaw and Barbosa  (Read 34046 times)

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Re: Ray Allen for Diaw and Barbosa
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2008, 08:07:06 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Excuse me?  Diaw is an excellent defender-- better than Ray Allen.  And Diaw is 6-9 with a handle good enough to play sg. He's in is md 20's, as is Barbosa.  Is either guy as good as Ray Allen individually?  No.  But the team would be just as good.

The problem with this deal is that Phoenix probably wouldn't do it.


Diaw has had one good season.  A couple average ones.


He is overpayed for what he does.




he has shown to be most effective starting in a really small lineup.  Celtics do not use that type of lineup.





As for Ray, now is not the time to trade him.  The three stars just earned the chance to go for the repeat.  They won a title in one year.  Let us see what they can do now that they have spent a year together. 

Re: Ray Allen for Diaw and Barbosa
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2008, 08:10:45 AM »

Offline TradeProposalDude

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Excuse me?  Diaw is an excellent defender-- better than Ray Allen.  And Diaw is 6-9 with a handle good enough to play sg. He's in is md 20's, as is Barbosa.  Is either guy as good as Ray Allen individually?  No.  But the team would be just as good.

The problem with this deal is that Phoenix probably wouldn't do it.
What a joke. Diaw an excellent defender? Really man?

Over the last 3 years he has been a frontcourt player, and a very inconsistent and frustrating one for Suns fans to watch the previous 2. I was impressed with his effectiveness in the beginning but Amare's return reduced it. His outside jumper and weight have been problems since he was drafted, and you know that.

I have no problems with Barbosa,  but he is a spot up shooting specialist and occasional penetrator with his blazing speed whereas Ray Allen is a primetime shooter & scorer. If you can't make the difference between those two descriptions, and essentially how much better off we'd be with Ray, then I don't know what to tell you.

Re: Ray Allen for Diaw and Barbosa
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2008, 08:15:36 AM »

Offline amenhotep04

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I don't usually respond to trade ideas because they are absurd and seemingly would never happen in real life.

However, this idea takes absurdity to a whole new level.

Why trade NBA champion Ray Allen? Are you kidding me? This guy deserved the FINALS MVP almost every bit as much as Paul Pierce did. You hear that? FINALS MVP. I know Barbosa is a good player, and Diaw has talent, and even with picks included... but for the love of God, you don't trade Ray Allen right after you win the championship. Especially when he was a critical factor to our success. And don't even get me started on the positives he brings from a leadership standpoint. Just ask Rondo - he said Ray motivated him to improve not only his jumper but overall game.

This is so crazy. People want to trade RAY ALLEN? Jesus (no pun intended).
 

Well said ... TP. Ray is so extremely valuable on so many levels ... I pray to God that he's a Celtic for the remainder of his career, and that number 20 will be hanging in the rafters of the Garden one day.

You are both 100% wrong.  I'll start with a history lesson.

It was very clear by 1989 or 1990 that the Bird-McHale-Parish Celtics were finished as a championship contender.  Bird had a bad back, Len Bias had overdosed and died, and draft choices like Michael Smith and Dee Brown were simply not talented enough.

McHale and Parish still had great value around the league, but the team refused to trade them when they had value.  What?  Trade Kevin McHale? That's preposterous, his number will be hanging from the rafters one day.  Same with Parish.

So, instead of moving these stars for younger players while the stars still had considerable trade value, they were kept, and what we saw was a slow decline culminating in those truly atrocious teams of 1995 and 1996, and a 21-year championship drought.

I'll repeat myself: it's better to trade a player a year too early than a year too late.  The same issues will arise when Garnett and Pierce start to decline. I want to see the Celtics contend for the next 20 years, not just the next two.  And just because we are all basking in the glow of a championship is no reason not to think ahead.   
With the salary cap and the added value of expiring contracts is it as important as before to trade early?

There's a very good chance that Ray Allen will have more value as an expiring deal than he does right now.

No, he won't.  Right now deal is short (2 years) and Ray still has great basketball value, particularly to a team like Phoenix looking to make a run with aging players like Shaquille O'Neal, Steve Nash and Grant Hill.

As for this being a different era, yes, but the principles are the same.  Those who refuse to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.

Look at the JO trade to see what happens when you trade a player a year too late.  The Pacers coyuld have done much better ttrading him to the Lakers last July.  Certainly they could have gotten Bynum and Farmar.  As it is, they're getting a non-lotto pick (#17), a player with very serious medical issues (TJ Ford) and a bunch of crap.



The Pacers could not have gotten Bynum and Farmar from the Lakers.  They wanted Bynum, but the Lakers said Bynum was off limits.  One offer was Odum, Walton, and a first round pick for JO.  I don't remember who said no to that deal.  At this point however, I would agree with your premise that it's better to trade a player a year too early than late.  JO's value is not nearly what it used to be.  There's no guarantee that Toronto get's anything out of this deal.  If JO cannot play, and goes the route of Mashburn, then Indiana gets the better of the deal.

Re: Ray Allen for Diaw and Barbosa
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2008, 08:31:10 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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Excuse me?  Diaw is an excellent defender-- better than Ray Allen.  And Diaw is 6-9 with a handle good enough to play sg. He's in is md 20's, as is Barbosa.  Is either guy as good as Ray Allen individually?  No.  But the team would be just as good.

The problem with this deal is that Phoenix probably wouldn't do it.
What a joke. Diaw an excellent defender? Really man?

Over the last 3 years he has been a frontcourt player, and a very inconsistent and frustrating one for Suns fans to watch the previous 2. I was impressed with his effectiveness in the beginning but Amare's return reduced it. His outside jumper and weight have been problems since he was drafted, and you know that.

I have no problems with Barbosa,  but he is a spot up shooting specialist and occasional penetrator with his blazing speed whereas Ray Allen is a primetime shooter & scorer. If you can't make the difference between those two descriptions, and essentially how much better off we'd be with Ray, then I don't know what to tell you.

Diaw is not an "excellent" defender, and he's not a better defender than Ray Allen, whose defense was one of the great surprises in the championship run. His ability to move laterally is limited, he's out of shape and I question his effort on the defensive end as well.

Plus, he's offensively limited as pointed out above. Comparing Diaw to Ray defensively is just laughable. As for Barbosa, he doesn't bring anything to the table at the one or two that we don't already have or cannot find in free agency.

Diaw and Barbosa aren't remotely close to value for Ray Allen, and any move involving Ray cannot, will not and should not be considered without absolute value in return. We should be adding pieces to the Big 3 for another run, including our free agent pieces. Breaking them up for the sake of breaking them up isn't intelligent at all.
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Re: Ray Allen for Diaw and Barbosa
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2008, 08:51:54 AM »

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Just to chime in on a few different points:

  • The Jermaine-to-LA trade was held up because Larry unfairly demanded both Bynum and Odom. Lakers were reportedly willing to part with either but not both. Bynum now versus Bynum then are two completely different trade assets. One is an unproven raw prospect who hasn't even shown he's capable of 20 productive minutes a night and the other is a 20/21 year old borderline All-Star who's a virtual lock to be a perennial all-star and All-League level talent.
  • Boris Diaw is an excellent defender. He made a rare and unusually large leap for a player of his age this past season on the defensive end. It was a pleasure to witness. He's got superb lateral quickness, he defends perimeter players very well whether big (Dirk) or small (Parker), he defends screen and rolls very well, he's a very good post defender using his strength to hold off bigger players. He uses his length, anticipation and good positioning to force less comfortable shots. He's aggressive and has good quick hands. He's an excellent defender. As for defensive comparisons to Ray? Diaw is far superior defensively.
  • Barbosa is a poor defender. His first few years in the league he was a very good defensive player actually he was a lot like Rajon Rondo defensively ... but over the past three seasons he's tailed off considerably. It isn't a lack of ability that plagues him but effort/concentration. Hopefully he'll resume his previous performance levels on the defensive end.
  • I'd also add that I believe Jermaine O Neal will have more trade value in a years time. Teams didn't want his $44mil like they didn't want his $60+mil last year. One year rental at 20mil or more likely wiping 20mil off their books is a much better trade asset.



 

Re: Ray Allen for Diaw and Barbosa
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2008, 09:01:08 AM »

Offline cordobes

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I don't usually respond to trade ideas because they are absurd and seemingly would never happen in real life.

However, this idea takes absurdity to a whole new level.

Why trade NBA champion Ray Allen? Are you kidding me? This guy deserved the FINALS MVP almost every bit as much as Paul Pierce did. You hear that? FINALS MVP. I know Barbosa is a good player, and Diaw has talent, and even with picks included... but for the love of God, you don't trade Ray Allen right after you win the championship. Especially when he was a critical factor to our success. And don't even get me started on the positives he brings from a leadership standpoint. Just ask Rondo - he said Ray motivated him to improve not only his jumper but overall game.

This is so crazy. People want to trade RAY ALLEN? Jesus (no pun intended).
 

Well said ... TP. Ray is so extremely valuable on so many levels ... I pray to God that he's a Celtic for the remainder of his career, and that number 20 will be hanging in the rafters of the Garden one day.

You are both 100% wrong.  I'll start with a history lesson.

It was very clear by 1989 or 1990 that the Bird-McHale-Parish Celtics were finished as a championship contender.  Bird had a bad back, Len Bias had overdosed and died, and draft choices like Michael Smith and Dee Brown were simply not talented enough.

McHale and Parish still had great value around the league, but the team refused to trade them when they had value.  What?  Trade Kevin McHale? That's preposterous, his number will be hanging from the rafters one day.  Same with Parish.

So, instead of moving these stars for younger players while the stars still had considerable trade value, they were kept, and what we saw was a slow decline culminating in those truly atrocious teams of 1995 and 1996, and a 21-year championship drought.

I'll repeat myself: it's better to trade a player a year too early than a year too late.  The same issues will arise when Garnett and Pierce start to decline. I want to see the Celtics contend for the next 20 years, not just the next two.  And just because we are all basking in the glow of a championship is no reason not to think ahead.   

Unless you say that it is very clear that Allen-Pierce-Garnett are finished as a championship contender, you are making no sense. You do understand this, righ? So, is Allen-Pierce-Garnett clearly finished as a championship contender?

Barbosa/Diaw/Pierce/KG would never win a championship. Barbosa and Diaw are mere role-players. So, I also don't understand why shouldn't we trade KG and Pierce right now as well.

Re: Ray Allen for Diaw and Barbosa
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2008, 10:56:39 AM »

Offline Brickowski

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I think the team would be a contender with Diaw and Barbosa instead of Ray Allen.  If we were having this discussion after the playoff series with Atlanta and Cleveland, the tone of the discussion would be very different.

You can legitimately argue that you don't like the package, but you can't argue that we shouldn't trade a player because hes been such a "great Celtic" or that his "number belongs in the rafters."

If the right deal comes along for any of the 30-something stars, you take it.  The perceived value you get back will always be less, because after all, these are big name players.  But you can get a package of younger players with a reasonable expectation of becoming championship caliber players.

I happen to like both Diaw and Barbosa.  Barbosa solves the backup point guard problem for at least the next 5-7 years.  Diaw is a player who can step in at either sf of pf and do a creditable job as either a starter or 6th man, and he's also in his mid 20s.  I really attribute Diaw's less than stellar numbers to the fact that he's not a good fit with Amare Stoudemire.  He'd be a far better fit with Garnett and Perkins, because Diaw is also an excellent passer who does not hog the ball.

But that's a topic on which reasonable men might disagree.  The notion that you should never trade a player because he's a "great Celtic" is hogwash.  Ed Macaulay was an all-star center and a "great Celtic" too, and in fact was on a St. Louis Hawks team that beat the Celtics in 1958.  He was also a far more polished scorer than Bill Russell.  But after 1958 the aging Hawks were finished.  The Celtics were just getting started.

Re: Ray Allen for Diaw and Barbosa
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2008, 11:03:30 AM »

Offline cordobes

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You can legitimately argue that you don't like the package, but you can't argue that we shouldn't trade a player because hes been such a "great Celtic" or that his "number belongs in the rafters."


Who has argued that? I, and many others, didn't. Quite the opposite: I've said several times that I would draft Pierce, KG, Ray, whoever for the right package. But it seems some of you just keep ignoring that and using a straw man argument.

Diaw and Barbosa are good role players in a running team, mediocre role players in a slow paced team (like the Celtics). Ray Allen is one of the best SGs in the league. A shooting slump during the playoffs doesn't change that. Pierce and KG with a great supporting cast is not enough to repeat.

Re: Ray Allen for Diaw and Barbosa
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2008, 11:13:55 AM »

Offline Brickowski

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Pierce and KG with a great supporting cast is not enough to repeat.

You have no factual basis for that assertion.  KG and Pierce, without Allen but with a much stronger bench, and a second young point guard who is far superior to House or Cassell, would have an equally good chance of winning a championship next year, and a much better chance in 2010 and 2011.

Re: Ray Allen for Diaw and Barbosa
« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2008, 11:27:00 AM »

Offline Jon

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I can't believe that people are still entertaining this idea.  It's absolutely ludicrous, and not for some sappy, sentimental, green tinted #17 reason either.  It defies reason altogether. 

When was the last time trading a star who meshed with his teammates for a bunch of role players worked out for a team?  I can't think of one example.  But I can think of countless examples of when trading a star for a bunch of role players can go wrong. 

As I said before, I think some of you are thinking from a basketball, hockey, baseball frame of mind, where such a trade might actually work, because you need so many quality players to be successful in that sport.  In basketball, it doesn't work that way.  You stick to your stars and you succeed. 

Compound that with the fact that we clearly are the best team in basketball right now and the potential chemistry issues that could explode by trading Ray and bringing in Diaw and Barbosa, and it's clear why this is an absolutely horrible idea. 

As I said before, stop thinking about the future.  I think too many people erroneously look at the collapse of the '80s Celtics and think that's going to happen here.  Well, guess what, the C's did have a plan, unfortunately Bias and Lewis both died and draft picks and young talent were mismanaged thereafter.  However, if Ainge plays his cards right, starts building some decent young talent to surround the Big Three (which he's doing), when they all eventually do retire, he'll have cap space to sign a major free agent or two to pair with Rondo and whoever he can develop internally. 

Re: Ray Allen for Diaw and Barbosa
« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2008, 11:31:30 AM »

Offline papa shuttlesworth

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Even when he is not producing up to his usual standards, Ray has a significant impact on the game.  Replacing him with all but a handful of shooting guards would severely impact the Celtics.

Both Ray Allen and Barbosa had horrible beginnings to the playoffs (which lead to Barbosa being sent home in the first round).  The difference is that  Barbosa was not covered with any special defense, he just had a bad series which helped the Spurs shift their attention to shutting down the rest of the Suns.  Ray Allen, on the other hand, was double teamed by the Cavs every time he caught the ball even while shooting 10% on wide open shots.  He demands so much respect from the opposing team that it allows PP and KG to do their thing.

When the season started, the idea was that it was impossible to double team three guys at once and there would always be one of the three in single coverage.  That doesn't happen if you replace one of them with a lesser player.

I was at the Charlotte game that Ray sat out.  It was like watching another team on offense.  I think Tony Allen did a good job in that game, but without that 3rd part of the big 3, the Bobcats cheated off the guards and just packed in the lane and stifled everything.

 

Re: Ray Allen for Diaw and Barbosa
« Reply #71 on: June 26, 2008, 11:37:45 AM »

Offline Brickowski

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Barbosa's career 3 pt percentage is almost as good as Allen's.  They aren't going to pack the lane and dare him to shoot.

Re: Ray Allen for Diaw and Barbosa
« Reply #72 on: June 26, 2008, 11:45:03 AM »

Offline Jon

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I think the team would be a contender with Diaw and Barbosa instead of Ray Allen.  If we were having this discussion after the playoff series with Atlanta and Cleveland, the tone of the discussion would be very different.

You can legitimately argue that you don't like the package, but you can't argue that we shouldn't trade a player because hes been such a "great Celtic" or that his "number belongs in the rafters."

If the right deal comes along for any of the 30-something stars, you take it.  The perceived value you get back will always be less, because after all, these are big name players.  But you can get a package of younger players with a reasonable expectation of becoming championship caliber players.

I happen to like both Diaw and Barbosa.  Barbosa solves the backup point guard problem for at least the next 5-7 years.  Diaw is a player who can step in at either sf of pf and do a creditable job as either a starter or 6th man, and he's also in his mid 20s.  I really attribute Diaw's less than stellar numbers to the fact that he's not a good fit with Amare Stoudemire.  He'd be a far better fit with Garnett and Perkins, because Diaw is also an excellent passer who does not hog the ball.

But that's a topic on which reasonable men might disagree.  The notion that you should never trade a player because he's a "great Celtic" is hogwash.  Ed Macaulay was an all-star center and a "great Celtic" too, and in fact was on a St. Louis Hawks team that beat the Celtics in 1958.  He was also a far more polished scorer than Bill Russell.  But after 1958 the aging Hawks were finished.  The Celtics were just getting started.

The problem is that neither Diaw or Barbosa really fill a huge need.  You talk about how Barbosa "solves the backup point guard problem," but how much of a problem is that?  If Rondo's ready to be the star most of us think he is, we're talking about a backup PG playing 10-15 minutes a game, probably less in the playoffs.  Diaw?  What is he more than a glorified James Posey?  Sure, Posey could leave, but now that Boston is a destination for free agents, couldn't we get someone only a step down from Diaw and Posey via the free agent market? 

That's the problem with trading stars, especially given our cap situation.  We can't find another shooting guard of Ray's caliber who can step in and play 35+ mpg at the 2 guard position every night.  If we resign Posey, we have no need for Diaw, so we're basically trading Ray Allen for whatever improvement Barbosa could give us in very limited time at the backup 1.

And all of this isn't even counting how overrated both players have been because they've had the luxury of playing with the best PG in basketball the past few years.  Neither of these players is going to come up big when it matters.  And without some of Ray's clutch baskets, there's no number 17.

We need to ride this out as long as possible. Until Ray actually starts to show he can't play anymore, we need to hold onto him. 

Re: Ray Allen for Diaw and Barbosa
« Reply #73 on: June 26, 2008, 12:14:42 PM »

Offline papa shuttlesworth

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Barbosa's career 3 pt percentage is almost as good as Allen's.  They aren't going to pack the lane and dare him to shoot.

How much of that is the product of the Suns' system? 

Quentin Richardson .358 three point % with Phoenix, .349 without
Joe Johnson .390 with Phoenix, .367 without
Grant Hill .317 with Phoenix, .255 without
Raja Bell .418 with Phoenix, .379 without
Shawn Marion .342 with Phoenix, .238 (admittedly small sample size)

The average increase in three point shooting percentage for these guys is 4.5% when playing with the Suns.  By my calculations, Ray Allen would shoot like 75% in that system.

Re: Ray Allen for Diaw and Barbosa
« Reply #74 on: June 26, 2008, 12:32:52 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Pierce and KG with a great supporting cast is not enough to repeat.

You have no factual basis for that assertion.  KG and Pierce, without Allen but with a much stronger bench, and a second young point guard who is far superior to House or Cassell, would have an equally good chance of winning a championship next year, and a much better chance in 2010 and 2011.

Brick- even you know this is absolute nonsense. Why trade a player who with KG and Pierce are already guaranteed contenders, for a couple of much less talented guys that MIGHT make us contenders. Just because they are young?! The best thing that can happen to us is to win 1-2 more titles over the next 3 years and worry about it afterwards. If we have three rings in 5 years then I'll worry about what comes later. Ray gives us that. Not these two clowns from Phoenix who never pushed that team into realistic contention with their three all-stars. You just like them because you have some crazy enamouration with foreign players.