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MLB owners vote for lockout
« on: December 01, 2021, 11:04:20 PM »

Offline Moranis

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so baseball is on hold or at least will be starting tomorrow.
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Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2021, 08:41:33 AM »

Offline Redz

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Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2021, 10:28:18 AM »

Online Roy H.

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I donít understand how theyíre giving guys $40 million per year, and then a couple days later locking out the players.

I guess the surprising thing is that from what Iím reading, the owners are OK with leaving the status quo in place, whereas the players want large changes. I would have expected ownership to be at least threatening a hard cap or increasing luxury tax penalties.


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Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2021, 10:36:17 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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I donít understand how theyíre giving guys $40 million per year, and then a couple days later locking out the players.

I guess the surprising thing is that from what Iím reading, the owners are OK with leaving the status quo in place, whereas the players want large changes. I would have expected ownership to be at least threatening a hard cap or increasing luxury tax penalties.


I expect the players want to redo the front end of contracts.   Too many players have to play through their prime before they can get their first big contract.   Then team are not willing to pay them for their past prime like they used to.
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Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2021, 11:03:17 AM »

Offline greg683x

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I donít understand how theyíre giving guys $40 million per year, and then a couple days later locking out the players.

I guess the surprising thing is that from what Iím reading, the owners are OK with leaving the status quo in place, whereas the players want large changes. I would have expected ownership to be at least threatening a hard cap or increasing luxury tax penalties.


I expect the players want to redo the front end of contracts.   Too many players have to play through their prime before they can get their first big contract.   Then team are not willing to pay them for their past prime like they used to.


I think thatís a big factor too.

Hopefully the owners put their foot down about it.  Changing arbitration rules and front end of their contracts so players can leave earlier would be really bad for the competitive balance in the sport, whatever is left of it.

Being able to hang onto these players is what the small market teams have for a competitive window before the Yankees or the Dodgers offer them some $500 million contract.  If youíre not willing to do a hard cap then you canít let this go
Greg

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2021, 11:10:16 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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I donít understand how theyíre giving guys $40 million per year, and then a couple days later locking out the players.

I guess the surprising thing is that from what Iím reading, the owners are OK with leaving the status quo in place, whereas the players want large changes. I would have expected ownership to be at least threatening a hard cap or increasing luxury tax penalties.


I expect the players want to redo the front end of contracts.   Too many players have to play through their prime before they can get their first big contract.   Then team are not willing to pay them for their past prime like they used to.


I think thatís a big factor too.

Hopefully the owners put their foot down about it.  Changing arbitration rules and front end of their contracts so players can leave earlier would be really bad for the competitive balance in the sport, whatever is left of it.

Being able to hang onto these players is what the small market teams have for a competitive window before the Yankees or the Dodgers offer them some $500 million contract.  If youíre not willing to do a hard cap then you canít let this go


Completely disagree.   I want it so players can get paid in their Prime.   


It is up to the league to make it so smaller markets can compete in terms of money.   All the other Major sport in the USA has figured it out.   
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Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2021, 11:19:57 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I donít understand how theyíre giving guys $40 million per year, and then a couple days later locking out the players.

I guess the surprising thing is that from what Iím reading, the owners are OK with leaving the status quo in place, whereas the players want large changes. I would have expected ownership to be at least threatening a hard cap or increasing luxury tax penalties.


I expect the players want to redo the front end of contracts.   Too many players have to play through their prime before they can get their first big contract.   Then team are not willing to pay them for their past prime like they used to.


I think thatís a big factor too.

Hopefully the owners put their foot down about it.  Changing arbitration rules and front end of their contracts so players can leave earlier would be really bad for the competitive balance in the sport, whatever is left of it.

Being able to hang onto these players is what the small market teams have for a competitive window before the Yankees or the Dodgers offer them some $500 million contract.  If youíre not willing to do a hard cap then you canít let this go


Completely disagree.   I want it so players can get paid in their Prime.   


It is up to the league to make it so smaller markets can compete in terms of money.   All the other Major sport in the USA has figured it out.
The other leagues all basically have 4 or 5 years before the big money really kicks in.  Baseball is longer at 6 years, but it isn't that far off, and arbitration starts after 3 years so players can get more than rookie deals sooner in the sport
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2021, 11:24:52 AM »

Offline Phantom255x

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One thing's for sure, this definitely won't help the sport as it tries to gain more popularity in a time where honestly, it feels football, basketball, etc. is just doing way better in terms of ratings and fandom. Especially if this lockout drags for a good chunk of this upcoming season.
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Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2021, 11:44:56 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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I donít understand how theyíre giving guys $40 million per year, and then a couple days later locking out the players.

I guess the surprising thing is that from what Iím reading, the owners are OK with leaving the status quo in place, whereas the players want large changes. I would have expected ownership to be at least threatening a hard cap or increasing luxury tax penalties.


I expect the players want to redo the front end of contracts.   Too many players have to play through their prime before they can get their first big contract.   Then team are not willing to pay them for their past prime like they used to.


I think thatís a big factor too.

Hopefully the owners put their foot down about it.  Changing arbitration rules and front end of their contracts so players can leave earlier would be really bad for the competitive balance in the sport, whatever is left of it.

Being able to hang onto these players is what the small market teams have for a competitive window before the Yankees or the Dodgers offer them some $500 million contract.  If youíre not willing to do a hard cap then you canít let this go


Completely disagree.   I want it so players can get paid in their Prime.   


It is up to the league to make it so smaller markets can compete in terms of money.   All the other Major sport in the USA has figured it out.
The other leagues all basically have 4 or 5 years before the big money really kicks in.  Baseball is longer at 6 years, but it isn't that far off, and arbitration starts after 3 years so players can get more than rookie deals sooner in the sport


Baseball also have minor league and will keep players down there longer until they are close to their prime.   Even when the player is ready, they will wait till later in the season so as to not count the current season on the 6 year clock.   

So in basketball, the 5 year clock starts when they are 19-22.   In baseball, probably 24-25?
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Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2021, 12:00:45 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I donít understand how theyíre giving guys $40 million per year, and then a couple days later locking out the players.

I guess the surprising thing is that from what Iím reading, the owners are OK with leaving the status quo in place, whereas the players want large changes. I would have expected ownership to be at least threatening a hard cap or increasing luxury tax penalties.


I expect the players want to redo the front end of contracts.   Too many players have to play through their prime before they can get their first big contract.   Then team are not willing to pay them for their past prime like they used to.

Is it true that teams aren't willing to pay guys past their primes?  That's perhaps true of some of the middle class guys, but that's always going to be the case.  Marcus Semien is 31 years old, and just got a seven year deal.  Corey Seager just got a 10 year contract that pays him until he's 37.  Trout, Lindor, Betts, Tatis, Cole, etc., etc.  all signed deals that pay them extraordinarily well through their prime and beyond.

And, of course, nothing prevents players from signing long-term deals through their arbitration years.  Wander Franco just signed an 11 year contract.  Yes, $183 million might be below what he'd get in a true free agency system, but it also guarantees him generational wealth even if he goes blind tomorrow.


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Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2021, 12:26:20 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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I donít understand how theyíre giving guys $40 million per year, and then a couple days later locking out the players.

I guess the surprising thing is that from what Iím reading, the owners are OK with leaving the status quo in place, whereas the players want large changes. I would have expected ownership to be at least threatening a hard cap or increasing luxury tax penalties.


I expect the players want to redo the front end of contracts.   Too many players have to play through their prime before they can get their first big contract.   Then team are not willing to pay them for their past prime like they used to.

Is it true that teams aren't willing to pay guys past their primes?  That's perhaps true of some of the middle class guys, but that's always going to be the case.  Marcus Semien is 31 years old, and just got a seven year deal.  Corey Seager just got a 10 year contract that pays him until he's 37.  Trout, Lindor, Betts, Tatis, Cole, etc., etc.  all signed deals that pay them extraordinarily well through their prime and beyond.

And, of course, nothing prevents players from signing long-term deals through their arbitration years.  Wander Franco just signed an 11 year contract.  Yes, $183 million might be below what he'd get in a true free agency system, but it also guarantees him generational wealth even if he goes blind tomorrow.

Again, top guys it works out for (and most starting pitchers).  The middle range of guys, not as much. 


It also means the team is willing to come up with a fair contract during the arbitration years.   
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Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2021, 12:52:10 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I donít understand how theyíre giving guys $40 million per year, and then a couple days later locking out the players.

I guess the surprising thing is that from what Iím reading, the owners are OK with leaving the status quo in place, whereas the players want large changes. I would have expected ownership to be at least threatening a hard cap or increasing luxury tax penalties.


I expect the players want to redo the front end of contracts.   Too many players have to play through their prime before they can get their first big contract.   Then team are not willing to pay them for their past prime like they used to.


I think thatís a big factor too.

Hopefully the owners put their foot down about it.  Changing arbitration rules and front end of their contracts so players can leave earlier would be really bad for the competitive balance in the sport, whatever is left of it.

Being able to hang onto these players is what the small market teams have for a competitive window before the Yankees or the Dodgers offer them some $500 million contract.  If youíre not willing to do a hard cap then you canít let this go


Completely disagree.   I want it so players can get paid in their Prime.   


It is up to the league to make it so smaller markets can compete in terms of money.   All the other Major sport in the USA has figured it out.
The other leagues all basically have 4 or 5 years before the big money really kicks in.  Baseball is longer at 6 years, but it isn't that far off, and arbitration starts after 3 years so players can get more than rookie deals sooner in the sport


Baseball also have minor league and will keep players down there longer until they are close to their prime.   Even when the player is ready, they will wait till later in the season so as to not count the current season on the 6 year clock.   

So in basketball, the 5 year clock starts when they are 19-22.   In baseball, probably 24-25?
NFL won't even let players in for 3 years past high school though.  They then have a 4 year very low contract with a 5th year at below market rate (though higher - similar to arbitration) at least for 1st round picks.  Most MLB players hit free agency in their mid 20's, which is later than NBA or NFL, but not appreciably.  The elite MLB guys also get fairly large signing bonuses that cover some of the early pay and often sign long term contracts getting rid of the arbitration period.

For example, Ronald Acuna Jr.  Entered the league at 21 in 2019.  He made 1 million in 19 and 20.  This past season he made 5 million.  Next year i.e. his 4th year at age 24, he will make 15 million.  In 2023, 24, 25, and 26 he will make 17 million each season.  The Braves have team options for 2027 and 28 both at 17 million (cutting him costs them 10 million).  He will reach free agency at age 31 in 2029, but will have been paid over 100 million dollars.  Acuna signed earlier than most to get more money up front, but that isn't the typical.  The typical is someone more like Mike Trout.

Mike Trout entered the league at age 20 in 2012 and made just under 500k that first year.  He was just over 500k in year 2, 1 million in year 3, 6 million in year 4, 16 million in year 5, 20 million in year 6, and then entered free agency in year 7 at age 26 when he signed his 12 year, 426 million dollar contract. 

As a comparison, Patrick Mahomes this season is making just 7.4 million in his 5th year.  His big contract starts next year when he is 27 in year 6.


I agree with you that baseball teams get too cute with years of service and that should be changed as there should not be a financial incentive to have to wait a month to call someone up to avoid paying them earlier, but as for the rest, I'm not sure the baseball guys are really that far behind the NFL guys.  NBA is a bit different because they enter the league so young and only have 4 years before the big money kicks in, but NFL not much different really.
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2021, 12:57:06 PM »

Offline Birdman

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Baseball still exists???? Have not watch much last 10 years & really donít care if they play againÖthese guys getting 200-300 million dollar contracts is unreal
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Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2021, 12:57:21 PM »

Offline greg683x

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I donít understand how theyíre giving guys $40 million per year, and then a couple days later locking out the players.

I guess the surprising thing is that from what Iím reading, the owners are OK with leaving the status quo in place, whereas the players want large changes. I would have expected ownership to be at least threatening a hard cap or increasing luxury tax penalties.


I expect the players want to redo the front end of contracts.   Too many players have to play through their prime before they can get their first big contract.   Then team are not willing to pay them for their past prime like they used to.


I think thatís a big factor too.

Hopefully the owners put their foot down about it.  Changing arbitration rules and front end of their contracts so players can leave earlier would be really bad for the competitive balance in the sport, whatever is left of it.

Being able to hang onto these players is what the small market teams have for a competitive window before the Yankees or the Dodgers offer them some $500 million contract.  If youíre not willing to do a hard cap then you canít let this go


Completely disagree.   I want it so players can get paid in their Prime.   


It is up to the league to make it so smaller markets can compete in terms of money.    All the other Major sport in the USA has figured it out.

That would be the hard cap.  Give the players what they want, freedom to leave sooner and get paid quicker, but the hard cap keeps the competitive balance.  Teams wonít be able to hand out these crazy $450 million dollar deals anymore and cap money can be spread around to more of the mid level players.
Greg

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2021, 03:43:23 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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The sport that continually shoots itself in the foot.


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