Did we underrate Al Horford

[Vermont Green]

I think almost everyone appreciated him, other than the “average Al” bozos.

But, it was fair to let him walk at $28 million.

Yet the C's are paying him nearly that much ($27M) now for a guy who is 3 years older.  It's OK for them to admit they made a mistake.

What mistake? It would've been a mistake if everyone walked and we would've been left with Horford alone too. The miscalculation was how quickly Horford made a decision once he got a big contract. Until we landed a big player, keeping Horford would have been a mistake.

The decision was never was about Horford, it was about under which circumstances we should keep him. In a matter of a day if not hours those circumstances changed, he was not available any longer. Also I think we had to some cap gymnastics to keep him regardless, it wasn't as clear cut as it is being made out to be.

I don't think this is admitting any mistake.  Horford was bad contract then and is still a bad contract, but one we are willing to live with now because it is shorter and taking it back allowed us to get out from an even worse contract (Kemba).

If there was any mistake to admit to it was signing Kemba.

[SHAQATTACK]

I think almost everyone appreciated him, other than the “average Al” bozos.

But, it was fair to let him walk at $28 million.

Yet the C's are paying him nearly that much ($27M) now for a guy who is 3 years older.  It's OK for them to admit they made a mistake.

What mistake? It would've been a mistake if everyone walked and we would've been left with Horford alone too. The miscalculation was how quickly Horford made a decision once he got a big contract. Until we landed a big player, keeping Horford would have been a mistake.

The decision was never was about Horford, it was about under which circumstances we should keep him. In a matter of a day if not hours those circumstances changed, he was not available any longer. Also I think we had to some cap gymnastics to keep him regardless, it wasn't as clear cut as it is being made out to be.

I don't think this is admitting any mistake.  Horford was bad contract then and is still a bad contract, but one we are willing to live with now because it is shorter and taking it back allowed us to get out from an even worse contract (Kemba).

If there was any mistake to admit to it was signing Kemba.

Amen….Al just has slowed from mostly age , he has aged well.   Kemba was damaged like IT but did not admit to the extent he was in pain .  and Danny s group went along with on prayer of hope , because most other plans went down the toilet and he was trying to save face. Kemba was his Waterloo.

[nickagneta]

Al's contract isn't bad if the Celtics don't go to the Finals this year. If the C's don't make it to the Finals, Al's guarantee is only $14.5 million next year, meaning his contract is only $41.5 million for 2 years. Not a great contract, but if Al gives this team 26 MPG with 11 PPG, 6 RPG and 3 APG with good shooting splits and solid defense, all very reasonable expectations, that's not a bad contract.

[Big333223]

I would say Horford underrated the C's. At least he got a big check and was able to come back. Still he wasted 2 possibly good years.

It's hard to quantify the damage that Gordon's awful awful injury inflicted on this team long term.

So much butterfly effect.

Now that Hayward is gone and it feels like we're at the beginning of a new era (post-Stevens, the J's taking over) I've been thinking about that injury more than I ever did since it happened. How far does that '18 team get with Hayward? How does that affect Kyrie? or Horford? So many questions.

Al's contract isn't bad if the Celtics don't go to the Finals this year. If the C's don't make it to the Finals, Al's guarantee is only $14.5 million next year, meaning his contract is only $41.5 million for 2 years. Not a great contract, but if Al gives this team 26 MPG with 11 PPG, 6 RPG and 3 APG with good shooting splits and solid defense, all very reasonable expectations, that's not a bad contract.

Yep. As always, context matters. The closer you get to the end of a contract, the more valuable it can be as a trade piece. With only 1 year left after this one and that year being partially guaranteed, the contract, itself, is now more valuable than it was when Horford signed it even though he, the player, is older.

[GreenShooter]

Al is fully rested , he practically never played , they paid 28 m to keep him off the Celtics was always my thought on that deal.

He looks as good as anytime he. Was on the C  be for to me .

We need to keep him fresh for him to play as active as he's been in the first two preseason games. He's 35 but looks like he's in very good shape. He already knows his teammates so he doesn't need much time to adjust other than the new coaching staff. We all saw he was a fish out of water with Philly. Just keep him at 30 minutes per game and he'll do just fine.

[Csfan1984]

Al is fully rested , he practically never played , they paid 28 m to keep him off the Celtics was always my thought on that deal.

He looks as good as anytime he. Was on the C  be for to me .

We need to keep him fresh for him to play as active as he's been in the first two preseason games. He's 35 but looks like he's in very good shape. He already knows his teammates so he doesn't need much time to adjust other than the new coaching staff. We all saw he was a fish out of water with Philly. Just keep him at 30 minutes per game and he'll do just fine.

I'd say 20 mins to 26 mins and Al could be a real factor on both sides of the floor. Anything more and he will wear/slow down. To get above avg Al he has to be feeling great and full of bounce.

[jambr380]

Al's contract isn't bad if the Celtics don't go to the Finals this year. If the C's don't make it to the Finals, Al's guarantee is only $14.5 million next year, meaning his contract is only $41.5 million for 2 years. Not a great contract, but if Al gives this team 26 MPG with 11 PPG, 6 RPG and 3 APG with good shooting splits and solid defense, all very reasonable expectations, that's not a bad contract.

That is not what anybody is reporting, though. From my understanding, Al will get his full contract amount if we keep him and only $14.5M if he cut. If we do the latter, that is a 1yr, $41.5M contract, which is pretty brutal. I suppose there is a chance we eat the $14.5M and re-sign him for the minimum, but Al would REALLY have to love Boston to do that.

[Vermont Green]

Al's contract isn't bad if the Celtics don't go to the Finals this year. If the C's don't make it to the Finals, Al's guarantee is only $14.5 million next year, meaning his contract is only $41.5 million for 2 years. Not a great contract, but if Al gives this team 26 MPG with 11 PPG, 6 RPG and 3 APG with good shooting splits and solid defense, all very reasonable expectations, that's not a bad contract.

That is not what anybody is reporting, though. From my understanding, Al will get his full contract amount if we keep him and only $14.5M if he cut. If we do the latter, that is a 1yr, $41.5M contract, which is pretty brutal. I suppose there is a chance we eat the $14.5M and re-sign him for the minimum, but Al would REALLY have to love Boston to do that.

Excluding the scenario where we make the finals, you are right, this is either a 1 year $41.5M or a 2 year $53.5M contract.  It won't hit the cap exactly that way if we do buy him out after 1 season but that is the cash cost of the contract.  The only thing you can say about that is it isn't as bad as what Kemba had left on his contract where we were on the hook for $73M over two more seasons.

And as far as buying him out and then resigning him, I am not sure we can do that.  I may be wrong but I recall there was some rule to prevent that.

[Moranis]

Al's contract isn't bad if the Celtics don't go to the Finals this year. If the C's don't make it to the Finals, Al's guarantee is only $14.5 million next year, meaning his contract is only $41.5 million for 2 years. Not a great contract, but if Al gives this team 26 MPG with 11 PPG, 6 RPG and 3 APG with good shooting splits and solid defense, all very reasonable expectations, that's not a bad contract.

That is not what anybody is reporting, though. From my understanding, Al will get his full contract amount if we keep him and only $14.5M if he cut. If we do the latter, that is a 1yr, $41.5M contract, which is pretty brutal. I suppose there is a chance we eat the $14.5M and re-sign him for the minimum, but Al would REALLY have to love Boston to do that.

Excluding the scenario where we make the finals, you are right, this is either a 1 year $41.5M or a 2 year $53.5M contract.  It won't hit the cap exactly that way if we do buy him out after 1 season but that is the cash cost of the contract.  The only thing you can say about that is it isn't as bad as what Kemba had left on his contract where we were on the hook for $73M over two more seasons.

And as far as buying him out and then resigning him, I am not sure we can do that.  I may be wrong but I recall there was some rule to prevent that.

Kemba is better than Al though and we gave up a 1st round pick to do that.

[Jiri Welsch]

Kemba is better than Al though and we gave up a 1st round pick to do that.

Kemba has better scoring stats than Al but is not actually a better player when you look at their positive impact moving forward.

[Who]

Horford always started seasons looking great after a summer's rest. Then he wore down and declined as the season went on. Here in Boston he often recovered enough for the playoffs but there was always that worry that he wouldn't.

It is not how Horford looks in preseason or in November.

It is how is he doing in February and March in the middle of the season? How is he doing in April and May come playoff time?

How Horford looks in preseason is deceiving.

[Moranis]

Kemba is better than Al though and we gave up a 1st round pick to do that.

Kemba has better scoring stats than Al but is not actually a better player when you look at their positive impact moving forward.

I just disagree.  Horford is an old man and has lost a lot of the defensive ability that made him so impactful.  He can only guard traditional centers and there just aren't many of them left.  I think he will do fine as the starter playing 20-24 mpg, but he is going to need nights off to not wear down as the season goes on.  Walker, even injured Walker, just has way more potential to impact a team.  Boston made that trade for cap flexibility not to get better on the floor.  They then used some of that cap flexibility to improve other positions, so from that perspective it was fine, but Walker is right now and will continue to be a better player than Horford.

[Jiri Welsch]

Kemba is better than Al though and we gave up a 1st round pick to do that.

Kemba has better scoring stats than Al but is not actually a better player when you look at their positive impact moving forward.

I just disagree.  Horford is an old man and has lost a lot of the defensive ability that made him so impactful.  He can only guard traditional centers and there just aren't many of them left.  I think he will do fine as the starter playing 20-24 mpg, but he is going to need nights off to not wear down as the season goes on.  Walker, even injured Walker, just has way more potential to impact a team.  Boston made that trade for cap flexibility not to get better on the floor.  They then used some of that cap flexibility to improve other positions, so from that perspective it was fine, but Walker is right now and will continue to be a better player than Horford.

I think you're right that in a vacuum Walker is a better player. My comment comes from the idea that once you start talking about 4th best, 5th best players on a team, it's mostly a matter of "fit" more than it is skillset in a vacuum.

For this team, where Brown and Tatum need the ball in their hands a lot, it is more valuable to have Horford and everything he brings (great ball movement for a big man, better rebounding, more vocal and impactful on defense, locker room leadership that extends beyond smiling, etc.) than Kemba.

[Goldstar88]

Kemba is better than Al though and we gave up a 1st round pick to do that.

Kemba has better scoring stats than Al but is not actually a better player when you look at their positive impact moving forward.

I just disagree.  Horford is an old man and has lost a lot of the defensive ability that made him so impactful.  He can only guard traditional centers and there just aren't many of them left.  I think he will do fine as the starter playing 20-24 mpg, but he is going to need nights off to not wear down as the season goes on.  Walker, even injured Walker, just has way more potential to impact a team.  Boston made that trade for cap flexibility not to get better on the floor.  They then used some of that cap flexibility to improve other positions, so from that perspective it was fine, but Walker is right now and will continue to be a better player than Horford.

Well, apparently GM Brad Stevens disagrees with you as well as every team that didn’t think Kemba was worth trading for once He landed in OKC.

[Celtics4ever]

Kemba has better scoring stats than Al but is not actually a better player when you look at their positive impact moving forward.

What are you basing this on?   His health?  Not there, every other game.   His scoring?  Offset by his D.  Nice guy for sure but Al seems to affect our team in more positive ways than Kemba did was mainly just scoring.

Al does one thing on a consistent basis that Kemba has never done in any point in his career.   He makes his team mates better.   Kemba is a one trick pony scorer.