Are Tatum and Brown redundant stars ?

[blink]

Parish and McHale were both rebounding, defending low post big men.  No way you could play them together.  Too redundant.

I got a good giggle out of this one.  TP!

[nickagneta]

The first year the team was handed over to Tatum and Brown was last year. In the crazy year that last year was, the Jays went through a lot of growing pains learning how to be THE MEN. They iso'ed too much. They struggle with playmaking. They struggled dealing with double teams.

But, they were 23 and 24 years old. They still have a lot to learn and they will because they are both intelligent and have great work ethics. That further growth will propel both in perennial All-NBA players.

There is another important thing they struggled with last year...creating on court offensive chemistry with each other. They meld well defensively but had very little synergy on the offensive side of the ball. THIS is what is the cause of this thread. Their lack of offensive chemistry appears to make them redundant when they aren't.

The problem was the way they were coached last year. Brad stuck with his offensive system and built nothing extra out of the flow of the system that would incorporate the two young stars playing together and off each other. Too often, one Jay would stand in a corner while the other was playing a three man weave/pick and roll with much lesser players. IT WAS MORONIC COACHING. You don't sit two of the highest scorers in the league, who score very efficiently, in the corner being uninvolved in the offense. It's one of the dumbest things Brad did as a coach.

So let's give Ime Udoka and his system a chance and let's see how he grows both players, both as individual players and as a two man unit that plays off each other. Some of you guys that think they're redundant and one has to go might feel quite differently after seeing The Jays in a different system being used quite differently.

[Rosco917]

Does keeping Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown together create a redundancy on offense that creates a ceiling for the Celtics ?

I believe it was Max who talked about the Celtics offense consisting of the two all-stars simply taking turns doing essentially the same thing - Going iso and getting a shot or getting to the rim or driving and passing to the 3-point line. This does not encourage player & ball movement, creativity or a team that plays together and becomes much more difficult to defend.

I believe continuing to add these ball-dominant point guards only aggravates the stagnancy in our offense.
This team is very often boring to watch - not a lot of activity and aggressiveness or teamwork on offense or defense.

Would we be better off trading Tatum or Brown for more complimentary players ?
(I know, I know, Tatum is untouchable. But the guy does not make his teammates better).

This^

Plus you can't say ownership never surrounded them with talent. They couldn't succeed with Kyrie, or a healthy Gordon Hayward, (when he finally did return) or a youngish Al Horford. Kyrie didn't enjoy playing with them, not at all. The bench for that 2018-19 season was absolutely loaded. 

Signing Kyrie Irving and a Gordon Hayward doesn't come cheap, perhaps the reason ownership now seems reluctant to invest. They simply want to see if the J's can thrive together, before tossing millions into the ocean again.

I also need to see signs that they can over-achieve as a duo by playing two man basketball together. Rather than taking turns going ISO.

And I agree, both are improving, this should be a telling season.

You have a bunch of this wrong.

Kyrie, Horford and Hayward were brought in as stars and it was Tatum and Brown that surrounded them. Those guys were not brought in to help Tatum and Brown in winning a title. The Jays were the youth trying to learn the game and help those stars win, much like Nesmith and Langford are the young guys surrounding The Jays while trying to learn the game and help the win.

Respectfully disagree. Comparing Nesmith and Langford with Tatum and Brown is way off. Both Nesmith and Langford will never be more than decent rotational players. Kyrie, Horford and Hayward were brought in to play along side two rising stars. Both Kyrie and Hayward had the opportunity to remain with the Celtic, taking advantage of the awesome potential of the J's...and both chose to move on.

Sometimes actions speak louder than word.

[gouki88]

Does keeping Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown together create a redundancy on offense that creates a ceiling for the Celtics ?

I believe it was Max who talked about the Celtics offense consisting of the two all-stars simply taking turns doing essentially the same thing - Going iso and getting a shot or getting to the rim or driving and passing to the 3-point line. This does not encourage player & ball movement, creativity or a team that plays together and becomes much more difficult to defend.

I believe continuing to add these ball-dominant point guards only aggravates the stagnancy in our offense.
This team is very often boring to watch - not a lot of activity and aggressiveness or teamwork on offense or defense.

Would we be better off trading Tatum or Brown for more complimentary players ?
(I know, I know, Tatum is untouchable. But the guy does not make his teammates better).

This^

Plus you can't say ownership never surrounded them with talent. They couldn't succeed with Kyrie, or a healthy Gordon Hayward, (when he finally did return) or a youngish Al Horford. Kyrie didn't enjoy playing with them, not at all. The bench for that 2018-19 season was absolutely loaded. 

Signing Kyrie Irving and a Gordon Hayward doesn't come cheap, perhaps the reason ownership now seems reluctant to invest. They simply want to see if the J's can thrive together, before tossing millions into the ocean again.

I also need to see signs that they can over-achieve as a duo by playing two man basketball together. Rather than taking turns going ISO.

And I agree, both are improving, this should be a telling season.

You have a bunch of this wrong.

Kyrie, Horford and Hayward were brought in as stars and it was Tatum and Brown that surrounded them. Those guys were not brought in to help Tatum and Brown in winning a title. The Jays were the youth trying to learn the game and help those stars win, much like Nesmith and Langford are the young guys surrounding The Jays while trying to learn the game and help the win.

Respectfully disagree. Comparing Nesmith and Langford with Tatum and Brown is way off. Both Nesmith and Langford will never be more than decent rotational players. Kyrie, Horford and Hayward were brought in to play along side two rising stars. Both Kyrie and Hayward had the opportunity to remain with the Celtic, taking advantage of the awesome potential of the J's...and both chose to move on.

Sometimes actions speak louder than word.

You're just rewriting history. Horford joined before we even had Tatum, and Brown was coming off a really underwhelming rookie season (very comparable to Nesmith, actually). Hayward joined the same season we got Tatum, as did Kyrie.

They were absolutely not brought in to play alongside two rising stars. Brown was coming off a 6.6PPG season when we added Kyrie and Hayward, and Tatum had never played an NBA minute.

[nickagneta]

Does keeping Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown together create a redundancy on offense that creates a ceiling for the Celtics ?

I believe it was Max who talked about the Celtics offense consisting of the two all-stars simply taking turns doing essentially the same thing - Going iso and getting a shot or getting to the rim or driving and passing to the 3-point line. This does not encourage player & ball movement, creativity or a team that plays together and becomes much more difficult to defend.

I believe continuing to add these ball-dominant point guards only aggravates the stagnancy in our offense.
This team is very often boring to watch - not a lot of activity and aggressiveness or teamwork on offense or defense.

Would we be better off trading Tatum or Brown for more complimentary players ?
(I know, I know, Tatum is untouchable. But the guy does not make his teammates better).

This^

Plus you can't say ownership never surrounded them with talent. They couldn't succeed with Kyrie, or a healthy Gordon Hayward, (when he finally did return) or a youngish Al Horford. Kyrie didn't enjoy playing with them, not at all. The bench for that 2018-19 season was absolutely loaded. 

Signing Kyrie Irving and a Gordon Hayward doesn't come cheap, perhaps the reason ownership now seems reluctant to invest. They simply want to see if the J's can thrive together, before tossing millions into the ocean again.

I also need to see signs that they can over-achieve as a duo by playing two man basketball together. Rather than taking turns going ISO.

And I agree, both are improving, this should be a telling season.

You have a bunch of this wrong.

Kyrie, Horford and Hayward were brought in as stars and it was Tatum and Brown that surrounded them. Those guys were not brought in to help Tatum and Brown in winning a title. The Jays were the youth trying to learn the game and help those stars win, much like Nesmith and Langford are the young guys surrounding The Jays while trying to learn the game and help the win.

Respectfully disagree. Comparing Nesmith and Langford with Tatum and Brown is way off. Both Nesmith and Langford will never be more than decent rotational players. Kyrie, Horford and Hayward were brought in to play along side two rising stars. Both Kyrie and Hayward had the opportunity to remain with the Celtic, taking advantage of the awesome potential of the J's...and both chose to move on.

Sometimes actions speak louder than word.

You're just rewriting history. Horford joined before we even had Tatum, and Brown was coming off a really underwhelming rookie season (very comparable to Nesmith, actually). Hayward joined the same season we got Tatum, as did Kyrie.

They were absolutely not brought in to play alongside two rising stars. Brown was coming off a 6.6PPG season when we added Kyrie and Hayward, and Tatum had never played an NBA minute.

TP for saving me the time correcting Rosco.

[Moranis]

Horford and Brown had their 1st seasons as Celtics together. Meaning Brown was drafted and then Horford signed like a week later.  The next summer we drafted Tatum and Hayward signed like a week later.  Irving came over via trade about a month later.  Horford, Hayward, and Irving were most definitely not brought in to play with any rising stars. 

[moiso]

Tatum and Brown are fine together.  I worry about adding Beal to the mix if that is the future plan.  Then the skill sets become very redundant.  It's a much better situation when one of the big 3 is a playmaker for others like Harden or Lebron.