Giving up both our 2014 1st to grab Embiid. Yes or no?

[D.o.s.]

Bogut has never averaged more than 15. 9 points or 10.3 rebounds a game.  Just two seasons above 2.0 blocks as well.  Career FG% of 52.8.

Noah is averaging his career high in points 12.6 and rebounds 11.2 this year.  Just one season (not this one) above 2.0 blocks.  Career FG% of 50.1.

Those are good player numbers, but they aren't HOF player numbers. 


Dwight Howard is shorter than both Bogut and Noah, but his wing span is 7'8".  He hasn't been below 12.3 rebounds in a game since his rookie year and hasn't been below 17.1 points since his second year.  6 of his 10 years above 2.0 blocks a game.  Career FG% of 57.9 (and he hasn't been below 57.2 since his second year).

That is a what a great centers numbers look like and that is a HOF player.


Reach matters.  Especially when you are playing in the paint with the other trees.  It isn't the only thing and you can be very good without the reach, but you had better darn well be physically strong, athletic as all get out, with a quick burst, and massive leaping ability if you don't have the reach and are going to be a HOF center.

You're missing one important aspect to Noah's stats - 5 assists a game. I'll let you go look up how many centers have averaged 12-11-5 over an entire season.

Or, you know, I could just tell you. It's Noah, Walton, Russell, Kareem, and Wilt. The only times that one of those seasons didn't result in an MVP award? Kareem in '79 (the second time he hit that plateau) and either Russell or Wilt, I forget which, because the other one won it, and there's no such thing as co-MVP.

Joakim Noah, right now, is the best center in the NBA.  If you don't agree it's well within your rights to be wrong, and no one is going to stop you.

No why Joakim Noah is so good?

Because he is a hell of an all around basketball player.

Sometimes, you have to sacrifice the physical stats and just go with the guy that knows how to play the game. Noah knows how to play the game. He's got a fabulous motor for a big man and he brings it every second he is on the floor.

Been saying since that 2009 series with Boston that I would take Noah any time to be a Celtic. He's got a ton of Dave Cowens in him and being a child of the 70's, that means a whole lot more to me than it does to a lot of you.

TP, even if I'm not on the Cowens train.

[greenhead85]

I believe Danny is ready for this case scenario. Our team went through it when Duncan was the top NBA rookie draftee. He could try trading for Embiid but I wouldnt be surprised if he would not.

Remember, we had picks 3 and 6 (eventual Celtics Billups and Ron Mercer) which are much better (depending of course where our ball pick falls if we do not get pick number 1, 2, 3 or 4) than we have for the upcoming draft.

Danny appears smarter and could do more wonders this time around.

[LooseCannon]

That seems like a silly reason to disqualify someone like Okafor, who is definitely a great looking prospect (even if he 'only' has a 7'3 wingspan)

That 7'3" wingspan number (along with a 6'10" height in shoes) seems to come from measurements taken in 2011.  Numbers from 2013 taken for the under-19 US team have bumped that up to 6'11" in shoes and a 7'6" wingspan.

[LooseCannon]

Then no, I wouldn't do it.

Not that this makes any sense at all -- why wouldn't the hypothetical just select Wiggins or Parker with the first pick? To save some thousands on the difference in rookie pay? To nab that extra first rounder? Why would we give up our second pick for Embiid when we're already in the top 4?

I'm about to fall asleep, so forgive the extra edits, but in my 'must-sleep' haze I don't see why we would do this.

Here's a realistic scenario.

Team A has the #1 pick and have Wiggins and Parker rated about the same and ahead of Embiid.
Team B has the #2 pick and have Embiid as #1 on their draft board
The Celtics have the #3 pick and think Embiid is significantly better than Wiggins or Parker.

The Celtics would then make an offer which allows them to leapfrog Team B and take Embiid.  Team A would drop down to get a player they thought was better and get an extra first-rounder.

The trade would requiring Ainge rating Embiid as better than Wiggins/Parker by more than the value of a non-lottery first-round pick and for Team A to not see that much of a difference between Wiggins and Parker.

[Birdman]

noooo..Parker I would

[Moranis]

Bogut has never averaged more than 15. 9 points or 10.3 rebounds a game.  Just two seasons above 2.0 blocks as well.  Career FG% of 52.8.

Noah is averaging his career high in points 12.6 and rebounds 11.2 this year.  Just one season (not this one) above 2.0 blocks.  Career FG% of 50.1.

Those are good player numbers, but they aren't HOF player numbers. 


Dwight Howard is shorter than both Bogut and Noah, but his wing span is 7'8".  He hasn't been below 12.3 rebounds in a game since his rookie year and hasn't been below 17.1 points since his second year.  6 of his 10 years above 2.0 blocks a game.  Career FG% of 57.9 (and he hasn't been below 57.2 since his second year).

That is a what a great centers numbers look like and that is a HOF player.


Reach matters.  Especially when you are playing in the paint with the other trees.  It isn't the only thing and you can be very good without the reach, but you had better darn well be physically strong, athletic as all get out, with a quick burst, and massive leaping ability if you don't have the reach and are going to be a HOF center.

You're missing one important aspect to Noah's stats - 5 assists a game. I'll let you go look up how many centers have averaged 12-11-5 over an entire season.

Or, you know, I could just tell you. It's Noah, Walton, Russell, Kareem, and Wilt. The only times that one of those seasons didn't result in an MVP award? Kareem in '79 (the second time he hit that plateau) and either Russell or Wilt, I forget which, because the other one won it, and there's no such thing as co-MVP.

Joakim Noah, right now, is the best center in the NBA.  If you don't agree it's well within your rights to be wrong, and no one is going to stop you.

No question the assists are nice, but centers aren't measured by assists.  They are measured by points, rebounds, and shot altering on defense.   You know all those other centers, were scoring 20 points a game (except Walton's 18.9) and blocking well over 2 shots a game.  A passing center is a bonus, but that is not the measure of what a center should be and what the all time great centers are.  They are scoring, shot blocking, rebounding machines.  Noah is a good rebounder, but he is not a scorer or shot blocker, and that is why he is nothing more than a role player.  He is basically a lesser version of Dennis Rodman.

Would you rather have Noah from this year or David Robinson when he went for 29.8 p, 10.7 r, 4.8 a, 3.3 b, 1.7 s in 93-94?  Or maybe Shaq's 99-00 season when he went for 29.7 p, 13.6 r, 3.8 a, 3 b?  And on and on.

Noah is a good player, but he is a glorified role player. 

And by the way Dave Cowens hit your arbitrary numbers is 76-77 and he wasn't even on an All-NBA team.  Sam Lacey and Wes Unseld just missed your arbitrary points number.  Not even All-NBA guys that season.  Other centers have hit 5 assists a game, but missed your point or rebound total as well, with no All-NBA seasons.  Assists just don't matter for centers, which is why I didn't say anything about them.

[D.o.s.]

A passing center is a bonus, but that is not the measure of what a center should be and what the all time great centers are.  They are scoring, shot blocking, rebounding machines.  Noah is a good rebounder, but he is not a scorer or shot blocker, and that is why he is nothing more than a role player.  He is basically a lesser version of Dennis Rodman.

Pfft.

[Moranis]

A passing center is a bonus, but that is not the measure of what a center should be and what the all time great centers are.  They are scoring, shot blocking, rebounding machines.  Noah is a good rebounder, but he is not a scorer or shot blocker, and that is why he is nothing more than a role player.  He is basically a lesser version of Dennis Rodman.

Pfft.

don't you mean "qft"

[D.o.s.]

 

Touche.

Anyway, 'arbitrary' numbers are what Noah's averaging this season -- I guess Cowens didn't play enough (he only played 50 games) to qualify for BkR's search?:
http://bkref.com/tiny/Tzx70

But maybe it just has an anti-Celtic bias.

TP for the Cowens bit, though -- I didn't know that.

[Moranis]

Touche.

Anyway, 'arbitrary' numbers are what Noah's averaging this season -- I guess Cowens didn't play enough (he only played 50 games) to qualify for BkR's search?:
http://bkref.com/tiny/Tzx70

But maybe it just has an anti-Celtic bias.

TP for the Cowens bit, though -- I didn't know that.

I know where the "arbitrary" numbers were coming from, I was being a bit of a smart alec with that, but my overall point remained the same, that centers are not measured by assists.  Sure assists are nice, but they are nothing more than a bonus.  I mean the fact that Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Malone, Reed, Unseld, and basically all of the other greatest centers in history (aside from Wilt, Bill, Kareem, Dave, and other Bill - and that is just 10 seasons total) never averaged 5 assists for a season, and most didn't come close should tell you what you really need to know about that position and assists.  They don't mean anything.  I think I would take every prime season from any of those guys ahead of Noah (who is in the prime of his career).  I'd take seasons from guys like Alonzo Mourning over Noah, etc.  The great centers put the ball in the hoop and stop their opponents from putting the ball in the hoop (by blocking shots and grabbing rebounds).  That is the positional requirement. 

It is the same for PG's and rebounds (and even points to a lesser extent).  Sure they are nice, but you don't pay a PG to get rebounds, you pay him to set up the offense and stop his opponent from setting up their offense.  I mean look at the greatest pure PG in NBA history (which eliminates Magic).  John Stockton never averaged more than 3.3 rebounds or 17.2 points in any season in his career.  Yet he is the prototypical PG.  Passing the rock, forcing turnovers, a good foul shooter, that can put it in the hole when necessary.

[nickagneta]

Touche.

Anyway, 'arbitrary' numbers are what Noah's averaging this season -- I guess Cowens didn't play enough (he only played 50 games) to qualify for BkR's search?:
http://bkref.com/tiny/Tzx70

But maybe it just has an anti-Celtic bias.

TP for the Cowens bit, though -- I didn't know that.

Told you. Noah reminded me of Cowens. Cowens wasn't really a shot bkocker. But he was tough and had a great motor, wasn't afraid to mix it up and played both sides of the ball with a tremendous intensity. Cowens was also a dang good passer.

BTW, (not to you DOS) that role playing center that didn't score a ton and didn't block a lot of shots that Noah reminds me of, he won an MVP and is in the Hall of Fame.

[nickagneta]

Also, does anyone else think that Noah doesn't score more, and for that matter centers score less as a whole, because the game has become more perimeter oriented?

Just seems the days of centers scoring 25-30 PPG are done because the style of play has gone to three point shooting, beyond the foul line pick and rolls and pick and pops, and the need to have big men that can also stretch a defense with outside shooting.

Of course, as a whole, big men are not developed nearly as well at pre-college and college level as they used to be 20 year ago and prior, so that could be the reason centers don't litter the top of the league's scoring lists any more.

[D.o.s.]

Nick, I think you're more or less on the money when you say centers score less because the game has become more perimeter oriented.

It seems to me that a posted up 7 footer (with whatever wingspan you choose) is only the most efficient way to score if you're playing with hand checking, a 'no layups' foul mentality regarding driving guards, and no zone defense. That's obviously not the case in today's NBA.

[BballTim]

Bogut has never averaged more than 15. 9 points or 10.3 rebounds a game.  Just two seasons above 2.0 blocks as well.  Career FG% of 52.8.

Noah is averaging his career high in points 12.6 and rebounds 11.2 this year.  Just one season (not this one) above 2.0 blocks.  Career FG% of 50.1.

Those are good player numbers, but they aren't HOF player numbers. 


Dwight Howard is shorter than both Bogut and Noah, but his wing span is 7'8".  He hasn't been below 12.3 rebounds in a game since his rookie year and hasn't been below 17.1 points since his second year.  6 of his 10 years above 2.0 blocks a game.  Career FG% of 57.9 (and he hasn't been below 57.2 since his second year).

That is a what a great centers numbers look like and that is a HOF player.


Reach matters.  Especially when you are playing in the paint with the other trees.  It isn't the only thing and you can be very good without the reach, but you had better darn well be physically strong, athletic as all get out, with a quick burst, and massive leaping ability if you don't have the reach and are going to be a HOF center.

You're missing one important aspect to Noah's stats - 5 assists a game. I'll let you go look up how many centers have averaged 12-11-5 over an entire season.

Or, you know, I could just tell you. It's Noah, Walton, Russell, Kareem, and Wilt. The only times that one of those seasons didn't result in an MVP award? Kareem in '79 (the second time he hit that plateau) and either Russell or Wilt, I forget which, because the other one won it, and there's no such thing as co-MVP.

Joakim Noah, right now, is the best center in the NBA.  If you don't agree it's well within your rights to be wrong, and no one is going to stop you.

No question the assists are nice, but centers aren't measured by assists.  They are measured by points, rebounds, and shot altering on defense.   You know all those other centers, were scoring 20 points a game (except Walton's 18.9) and blocking well over 2 shots a game.  A passing center is a bonus, but that is not the measure of what a center should be and what the all time great centers are.

  I don't think Noah is really the best center, more the flavor of the month. Aside from that, though, I disagree with the sentiment of your post. Being skilled at many things is quite a bonus, as is being skilled at things that others at your position aren't. You can't just dismiss the value of a good passing center and the effect it can have on a team because some of the all-time greats didn't possess that skill.

[Moranis]

Cousins is 10th in the league in scoring, Al Jefferson is 12th, and  Anthony Davis is 16th.  All are over 20 a game and all are in their prime or no where near their prime.   Brook Lopez finished 10th in scoring last year and is obviously hurt this year.  Dwight has had solid scoring seasons.  Guys like Aldridge and Duncan have numerous seasons over 20 a game and while technically PF's have games more like traditional centers (Blake Griffin is in that mold as well).   

Frankly, that isn't much different than most years.  Take 86-87, Moses Malone at 9th, was the only center in the top 11 in scoring that year.  Hakeem was 12th, but there were no other centers in the top 20.  How about 96-97, Shaq was 4th, Hakeem was 8th, and Ewing was 9th, but there were no other centers in the top 20.  In 02-03, Shaq was 4th and he was the only pure center in the top 20 (Duncan, Garnett, and JO were in the top 20, but all were PF's that year).  Even in the days of Wilt like 64-65, it isn't like centers were all over the scoring leader board.  Wilt was 1st, Bellamy was 6th, Reed was 9th, and Thurmond was 17th.