Give me the big 3 anyday

[BballTim]

You went through many years of bad Celtic teams because they held on to the last Big 3 for too long. This team is further off than you think. Each of those 3 players needs to be dumped (Maybe not Paul if he resigns for an affordable contract so he can retire a Celtic).

How do 3 players on a team in 1989 have to do with the success of that team over most of the next 2 decades?  that is an absurd argument.  we had down years because of a combination of bad luck (reggie lewis, len bias) bad trades (billups, joe johnson to name a few), bad drafting, etc.

Seriously? I agree the bad luck and bad trades were there, but the failure to trade away Larry, McHale, Parish etc. for younger talent didn't help. The last time they won was 86. Those guys were still on the floor together in 91. Thats 5 years they continued playing past their prime without earning a championship. That is exactly what this current team will do if you don't trade them. They will remain stagnant or go downhill. This team will not win a championship without making a move. Youth wins in the NBA now. Teams like us, and the Spurs can't beat young teams now.

This team isn't going to draft a Reggie Lewis at 22, or a Len Bias at 2. They're going to continue to draft role players that don't see any action because they're going to be just good enough to stay out of the lottery.

  We lucked into that #2 pick, but we already did draft a "Lewis at 22". He's Rondo at #21.

  Food for thought, but in 1989-90, Bird averaged 24/10/8, Parish averaged 16/10 and McHale gave us 21/8. They were all putting up good numbers and Lewis was starting to emerge (17 a game).

[Jon]

I generally agree.  Though I still might make the Washington deal.  Maybe. 

Still, as the OP states, people around here generally forget how hard it is to build a contender.  Generally speaking, most combinations of good players AREN'T good enough to win a title.  Look at all the great teams of even the past 10 years that were good, but never won a title: Webber's Kings, Dirk's Mavs, Nash's Suns, and the list goes on.  Thinking we can just throw some pieces together though trades and expect it to work, isn't necessarily the recipe for success.  In fact, there's probably a 95% chance or better that the post Big Three Celtics won't win a championship in the next 10 years. 

More importantly, I think people are forgetting that the Big Three weren't just successful because they were good, they were also successful for the following three reasons:

1) They were unselfish (mostly because of age)
2) Their games fit well together given the way all three could pass and shoot
3) They all played tough defense

Quite frankly replacement players may not fit those criteria and may not be able to make us as good as were were. 

Doesn't mean that we should never make a trade, but I wouldn't make it with the levity that some people on this board would. 

[MattG12]

Guys... adavancement in age leads to injuries. Bird and McHale were out a lot towards the end of their careers because of injuries. This can be attributed to advancement in age. Young guys come back from injuries faster, and are injured less often. Look at KG and Paul, constantly injured. They are great players but if they can't stay on the floor they're not going to win.

This team will not win anything if they stay stagnant and other teams get younger and more athletic... how do you not see that?

[BballTim]

Guys... adavancement in age leads to injuries. Bird and McHale were out a lot towards the end of their careers because of injuries. This can be attributed to advancement in age. Young guys come back from injuries faster, and are injured less often. Look at KG and Paul, constantly injured. They are great players but if they can't stay on the floor they're not going to win.

This team will not win anything if they stay stagnant and other teams get younger and more athletic... how do you not see that?

  But you're talking about  (in terms of the late 80s Celts) breaking up a possible title contender on order to get a few decent, younger players that will never bring you a title. Is a legitimate shot or two at a title worth more or less than winning 48 games instead of 38 games for the first 5 years that you're not a contender?

[Jon]

Guys... adavancement in age leads to injuries. Bird and McHale were out a lot towards the end of their careers because of injuries. This can be attributed to advancement in age. Young guys come back from injuries faster, and are injured less often. Look at KG and Paul, constantly injured. They are great players but if they can't stay on the floor they're not going to win.

This team will not win anything if they stay stagnant and other teams get younger and more athletic... how do you not see that?

Though we don't know the extent of KG's injuries, comparing PP's plight to Bird/McHale is just plain distortions of reality.  PP has had a few tweaks here or there, but that's nothing worse than what younger players have seen.  Bird had a chronic, debilitating back injury and McHale screwed up his foot permanently by playing on it while broken though much of the '86-87 season.  That's a fire cry from PP missing a couple of games here and there, and is likely a far cry from KG's injury.  

[MattG12]

Agree to disagree guys.

It is my opinion that this team will not win a title. Not this year, not next year, not in 2013.

KG will never be the same player he once was.
Pierce has lost any speed he had and has become a jump shooter, yet the team still runs the Pierce iso at the end of games. This will never work.
Ray has no legs left for his shot. Coincidentally, I think he'll get his shot back, and I think he has the most left in the tank. However, I still believe he has to be traded now rather than biting the bullet and getting nothing in return for him when his deal is up.

[BballTim]

Agree to disagree guys.

It is my opinion that this team will not win a title. Not this year, not next year, not in 2013.

KG will never be the same player he once was.
Pierce has lost any speed he had and has become a jump shooter, yet the team still runs the Pierce iso at the end of games. This will never work.
Ray has no legs left for his shot. Coincidentally, I think he'll get his shot back, and I think he has the most left in the tank. However, I still believe he has to be traded now rather than biting the bullet and getting nothing in return for him when his deal is up.

  Really, there are two seperate discussions going on. One is whether the current team parallels the late 80s Celts (it really doesn't at all) and two is whether to break up the current team. We all know that KG will never be the same player he once was, the question is whether he will improve from how he's playing now. And I don't really agree with many of the complaints about Pierce. He's had two relatively minor injuries, neither of which are expected to have long term effects on him. People are grading him out physically based on his first couple of games back from injury. He sprained his foot a week or two ago and he says it still hurts. Will he be playing better in a week or two? I don't see why not. Is the foot impacting his speed? I would assume so.

[Jon]

Agree to disagree guys.

It is my opinion that this team will not win a title. Not this year, not next year, not in 2013.

KG will never be the same player he once was.
Pierce has lost any speed he had and has become a jump shooter, yet the team still runs the Pierce iso at the end of games. This will never work.
Ray has no legs left for his shot. Coincidentally, I think he'll get his shot back, and I think he has the most left in the tank. However, I still believe he has to be traded now rather than biting the bullet and getting nothing in return for him when his deal is up.

  Really, there are two seperate discussions going on. One is whether the current team parallels the late 80s Celts (it really doesn't at all) and two is whether to break up the current team. We all know that KG will never be the same player he once was, the question is whether he will improve from how he's playing now. And I don't really agree with many of the complaints about Pierce. He's had two relatively minor injuries, neither of which are expected to have long term effects on him. People are grading him out physically based on his first couple of games back from injury. He sprained his foot a week or two ago and he says it still hurts. Will he be playing better in a week or two? I don't see why not. Is the foot impacting his speed? I would assume so.

This is exactly right.  The point I disagree with Matt about is that anyone can have ANY legitimate opinion right now.  By no means am I saying that PP or KG will improve.  All I'm saying is that it's way too early to make any judgment.  This is like Fox New saying recently that given the last week of rough weather proves that Global Warming isn't real.  No.  All it proves is that last week's weather was bad.  Same thing here.  All we know is that KG and PP are slowed by injuries now.  We don't know if that will continue, worsen, or get better.  And given how tough it is to build a real contender, I wouldn't be so anxious to give up on this one yet. 

[Junkyard Dawg]

This is like Fox New saying recently that given the last week of rough weather proves that Global Warming isn't real.

Now there is an analogy that makes sense (as opposed to the analogy of this C's team to previous C's teams).

And everyone is entitled to their opinion, I just don't think you should build an opinion of these Celtics on the past month and a half of the season.  we've lost a lot of games to good teams, but a number of those games were still really, really close.  KG knocks in 2 more jumpers, we win the game.  Rondo hits 2 more free throws, we win the game... I'd be happy if all we got at the trade deadline was a legit bench scorer

[celticinorlando]

if these guys aren't injured then i dont know what to make of their poor play right now. they are so much better than what they are showing us

[BballTim]

if these guys aren't injured then i dont know what to make of their poor play right now. they are so much better than what they are showing us

  What would make you think that they aren't injured, especially since they're in and out of the lineup with injuries?

[moiso]

It's kind of ridiculous how everyone in the organization is saying KG is healthy, including KG himself.

[angryguy77]

I'll take the 3 when they are healthy and can play well enough to not go 9 and horrible in Jan. Or if they could beat contenders w/o blowing the game. Unless something is done, its pure fantasy to think this team would make the finals and beat LA. Other than the good run they had in the begining of the season, what do we have other that hope as evidence that this team can win with it's current roster? Every month and game is important, but it looks like the team doesn't realize this.

If you all are thinking they are coasting, you are going to be surpirsed in april. They don't have it this year with the way its constructed.

[More Banners]

It's kind of ridiculous how everyone in the organization is saying KG is healthy, including KG himself.

Absolutely correct.  The guy is running and jumping like he has a wooden leg.

Some differences between KG now and the aging of Bird is that while Larry missed quite a few games during the last few years, he was still incredibly effective when he was playing.  KG is clearly not as effective, and in some cases barely passable (no lift on lobs from Rondo, not closing out on shooters after protecting the paint on drive-and-dish plays, inadequate lateral quickness).

For this team to win, KG (not Perk) needs to anchor the defense with his length and quickness.  It isn't there.  His leadership rested in holding teammates to his level of intensity and execution, but with his abilities failing him, he's saying "my bad" more than anything else.

A healthy KG is a fantasy at this point.  And we're stuck with him.

[celticinorlando]

if these guys aren't injured then i dont know what to make of their poor play right now. they are so much better than what they are showing us

  What would make you think that they aren't injured, especially since they're in and out of the lineup with injuries?

they all are saying they are fine