Author Topic: 2019 Historical Draft Thread(TIME TO REVEAL THE WINNER!!!)  (Read 191497 times)

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Re: 2019 Historical Draft Thread(Round 2 over. Have a great weekend!!!)
« Reply #555 on: August 25, 2019, 11:43:47 AM »

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I have been watching past all star games for the last few months and one of the strange things was about Hakeem Olajuwon. He seemed to have less of an offensive impact than other centers of that time.

It is only the all-star game. It doesn't matter much.

However, I also remember the same happening on Dream Team III. Hakeem was just exiting his prime but he was still dropping 27ppg for the Rockets the year before.

The Rockets surrounded Hakeem with role players. He was the focal point. Everything revolved around him. Which makes me wonder if there is something about his game that makes him fall away a bit when surrounded by other top offensive options. It is strange because Hakeem was such a well rounded scorer. But he was also a heavy iso scorer.

It is not something I would be overly concerned about (because Hakeem would still be super-effective even in a 15-20ppg role as a defender / scorer) but it is something to think about.

---------------

I am not against the Kobe & Hakeem combo. I think they can work well together. That team could go a few different ways and build something awesome.

I hadn't thought of a high end glue guy for them. That wouldn't be a priority for me but it would work well for them.

I love the defense & quickness of the combination most of all. That is what stands out most to me (more than their scoring punch). And that is a fantastic base to build around (darn you Dirk!). Then they have tremendous iso scorers to fall back on when defenses D up and Kobe's playmaking from the wing (to aid your PG and give extra creativity). There is lots of ways to build a top notch team around that.

-------------

On another note, I'd rate Hakeem's passing similar to Dirk's. It is good and they showed that they could run an offense through them and win a title ... but it doesn't stand out next to the greatest of the great (teams that revolve around Bird, Magic, MJ, LeBron, Oscar, even Shaq) that each will be competing against in this tournament.

Personally, I think Hakeem is more suited to a lesser role because of that. More of a 18-22ppg threat than a 25-30ppg threat. Let him concentrate more on his defense and wrecking havoc on opposing team's offenses.

Re: 2019 Historical Draft Thread(Round 2 over. Have a great weekend!!!)
« Reply #556 on: August 25, 2019, 11:53:50 AM »

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I have been watching past all star games for the last few months and one of the strange things was about Hakeem Olajuwon. He seemed to have less of an offensive impact than other centers of that time.

It is only the all-star game. It doesn't matter much.

However, I also remember the same happening on Dream Team III. Hakeem was just exiting his prime but he was still dropping 27ppg for the Rockets the year before.

The Rockets surrounded Hakeem with role players. He was the focal point. Everything revolved around him. Which makes me wonder if there is something about his game that makes him fall away a bit when surrounded by other top offensive options. It is strange because Hakeem was such a well rounded scorer. But he was also a heavy iso scorer.

It is not something I would be overly concerned about (because Hakeem would still be super-effective even in a 15-20ppg role as a defender / scorer) but it is something to think about.

---------------

I am not against the Kobe & Hakeem combo. I think they can work well together. That team could go a few different ways and build something awesome.

I hadn't thought of a high end glue guy for them. That wouldn't be a priority for me but it would work well for them.

I love the defense & quickness of the combination most of all. That is what stands out most to me (more than their scoring punch). And that is a fantastic base to build around (darn you Dirk!). Then they have tremendous iso scorers to fall back on when defenses D up and Kobe's playmaking from the wing (to aid your PG and give extra creativity). There is lots of ways to build a top notch team around that.

-------------

On another note, I'd rate Hakeem's passing similar to Dirk's. It is good and they showed that they could run an offense through them and win a title ... but it doesn't stand out next to the greatest of the great (teams that revolve around Bird, Magic, MJ, LeBron, Oscar, even Shaq) that each will be competing against in this tournament.

Personally, I think Hakeem is more suited to a lesser role because of that. More of a 18-22ppg threat than a 25-30ppg threat. Let him concentrate more on his defense and wrecking havoc on opposing team's offenses.
Excellent observations. It's what I was trying to tell all of you guys-Hakeem is one of the best floor raisers ever, but he needs a specific type of supporting cast to let him dominate. I also think that he would suffer from the abolition of the illegal defense rule-his game suffered a lot during the Olympics where help defense was allowed and other countries swarmed him with help.
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Re: 2019 Historical Draft Thread(Round 2 over. Have a great weekend!!!)
« Reply #557 on: August 25, 2019, 11:57:42 AM »

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Yes! Keep the Hakeem/Shaq debates up! Little do they realize that arguing like this will only lower the stock of both players! Maybe I should start up some Lebron/Jordan and Bird/Magic debates...
2023 No Top 75 Fantasy Draft Los Angeles Clippers
PG: Dennis Johnson / Jo Jo White / Stephon Marbury
SG: Sidney Moncrief / World B. Free
SF: Chris Mullin / Ron Artest
PF: Detlef Schrempf / Tom Chambers / Buck Williams
C: Ben Wallace / Andrew Bynum

Re: 2019 Historical Draft Thread(Round 2 over. Have a great weekend!!!)
« Reply #558 on: August 25, 2019, 11:59:19 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Yes! Keep the Hakeem/Shaq debates up! Little do they realize that arguing like this will only lower the stock of both players! Maybe I should start up some Lebron/Jordan and Bird/Magic debates...
I don't see Shaq's stock getting any lower in this game lol, he's getting rated as being worse than Hakeem/Russell/Wilt/Kareem when his peak was arguably the highest out of all time great centers.
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Re: 2019 Historical Draft Thread(Round 2 over. Have a great weekend!!!)
« Reply #559 on: August 25, 2019, 12:01:17 PM »

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Yes! Keep the Hakeem/Shaq debates up! Little do they realize that arguing like this will only lower the stock of both players! Maybe I should start up some Lebron/Jordan and Bird/Magic debates...
I don't see Shaq's stock getting any lower in this game lol, he's getting rated as being worse than Hakeem/Russell/Wilt/Kareem when his peak was arguably the highest out of all time great centers.

I love Shaq, but his peak wasn’t higher than those guys.


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Re: 2019 Historical Draft Thread(Round 2 over. Have a great weekend!!!)
« Reply #560 on: August 25, 2019, 12:04:32 PM »

Offline Somebody

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Yes! Keep the Hakeem/Shaq debates up! Little do they realize that arguing like this will only lower the stock of both players! Maybe I should start up some Lebron/Jordan and Bird/Magic debates...
I don't see Shaq's stock getting any lower in this game lol, he's getting rated as being worse than Hakeem/Russell/Wilt/Kareem when his peak was arguably the highest out of all time great centers.

I love Shaq, but his peak wasn’t higher than those guys.
Guess we'll agree to disagree. Shaq's 99-00 season was legendary even among those guys, only Kareem ever matched that volume+efficiency, and Shaq peaked defensively as well that season.
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Re: 2019 Historical Draft Thread(Round 2 over. Have a great weekend!!!)
« Reply #561 on: August 25, 2019, 12:14:50 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Yes! Keep the Hakeem/Shaq debates up! Little do they realize that arguing like this will only lower the stock of both players! Maybe I should start up some Lebron/Jordan and Bird/Magic debates...
I don't see Shaq's stock getting any lower in this game lol, he's getting rated as being worse than Hakeem/Russell/Wilt/Kareem when his peak was arguably the highest out of all time great centers.

I love Shaq, but his peak wasn’t higher than those guys.
Guess we'll agree to disagree. Shaq's 99-00 season was legendary even among those guys, only Kareem ever matched that volume+efficiency, and Shaq peaked defensively as well that season.

Shaq’s defense was never close to any of those guys, though.  You look at a guy like Hakeem, who could dominate on both ends. Same with Wilt and Kareem. 


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Re: 2019 Historical Draft Thread(Round 2 over. Have a great weekend!!!)
« Reply #562 on: August 25, 2019, 12:28:54 PM »

Offline Somebody

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Yes! Keep the Hakeem/Shaq debates up! Little do they realize that arguing like this will only lower the stock of both players! Maybe I should start up some Lebron/Jordan and Bird/Magic debates...
I don't see Shaq's stock getting any lower in this game lol, he's getting rated as being worse than Hakeem/Russell/Wilt/Kareem when his peak was arguably the highest out of all time great centers.

I love Shaq, but his peak wasn’t higher than those guys.
Guess we'll agree to disagree. Shaq's 99-00 season was legendary even among those guys, only Kareem ever matched that volume+efficiency, and Shaq peaked defensively as well that season.

Shaq’s defense was never close to any of those guys, though.  You look at a guy like Hakeem, who could dominate on both ends. Same with Wilt and Kareem.
His defense that season was surprisingly good, to me his legendary offense more than made up for the gap in defense, which was smaller than what their reputations would suggest.
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Re: 2019 Historical Draft Thread(Round 2 over. Have a great weekend!!!)
« Reply #563 on: August 25, 2019, 12:50:24 PM »

Offline Silky

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I have been watching past all star games for the last few months and one of the strange things was about Hakeem Olajuwon. He seemed to have less of an offensive impact than other centers of that time.

It is only the all-star game. It doesn't matter much.

However, I also remember the same happening on Dream Team III. Hakeem was just exiting his prime but he was still dropping 27ppg for the Rockets the year before.

The Rockets surrounded Hakeem with role players. He was the focal point. Everything revolved around him. Which makes me wonder if there is something about his game that makes him fall away a bit when surrounded by other top offensive options. It is strange because Hakeem was such a well rounded scorer. But he was also a heavy iso scorer.

It is not something I would be overly concerned about (because Hakeem would still be super-effective even in a 15-20ppg role as a defender / scorer) but it is something to think about.

---------------

I am not against the Kobe & Hakeem combo. I think they can work well together. That team could go a few different ways and build something awesome.

I hadn't thought of a high end glue guy for them. That wouldn't be a priority for me but it would work well for them.

I love the defense & quickness of the combination most of all. That is what stands out most to me (more than their scoring punch). And that is a fantastic base to build around (darn you Dirk!). Then they have tremendous iso scorers to fall back on when defenses D up and Kobe's playmaking from the wing (to aid your PG and give extra creativity). There is lots of ways to build a top notch team around that.

-------------

On another note, I'd rate Hakeem's passing similar to Dirk's. It is good and they showed that they could run an offense through them and win a title ... but it doesn't stand out next to the greatest of the great (teams that revolve around Bird, Magic, MJ, LeBron, Oscar, even Shaq) that each will be competing against in this tournament.

Personally, I think Hakeem is more suited to a lesser role because of that. More of a 18-22ppg threat than a 25-30ppg threat. Let him concentrate more on his defense and wrecking havoc on opposing team's offenses.


Hakeem can take over when needed, but I do believe that he is best served as a lynch pin of the offense.

Put him in the high post and run things around him, I believe his points would indeed go down, but he was an exceptional passer. I firmly believe as a playmaker out of the high post his assist numbers go even higher.

And less effort on offense allows he to be even more of a defensive mosnter.

Re: 2019 Historical Draft Thread(Round 2 over. Have a great weekend!!!)
« Reply #564 on: August 25, 2019, 12:52:44 PM »

Offline Silky

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The only problem kobe ever had with other players was ones that
A) didnt practice or play as hard as he did
B) didnt perform on the court.

A scoring guard that logged 6300 assists in his career is definately a facilitator. "Shoot all the shots kobe" only happened when he had teammates that didnt perform. Period.

Kobe also has great respect for hakeem.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kobe-bryant-thanks-hakeem-olajuwon-after-final-game-in-houston/

There is no issue between kobe and hakeem. Mutal respect. Both hyper competetive and driven and both winners.

Silky, I don't think there would be an issue between Kobe and Hakeem.  I agree they would have respect for each other.  I just think that it will be Kobe's team, not Hakeem's. 

We all know Kobe (and Buss) wanted the Lakers to be his team, not Shaq's team.  It's what led to Shaq eventually demanding to be traded.  Shaq didn't have the personality to accept that, hence the clash.  I think Hakeem will have the personality to accept being 1B to Kobe's 1A for the betterment of the team and chemistry.  But Kobe will be the leader.
It'd be quite a waste of Hakeem's talent if Kobe became the 1A of the squad. Hakeem was better by a fair margin when it came to buoying teams imo, and had more devastating offense against tough defenses.

Its hakeems team.

Kobe knows it. And is ok with it.

https://www.nbclosangeles.com/blogs/triple-threat/Lakers-Kobe-Bryant-Shaq-sidekick-video-191065851.html

Here admits to being robin to shaqs batman.

And we know kobe respects hakeem more than shaq. Ergo kobe is cool with being second to hakeem

It is one thing to sit on the sidelines and SAY one thing.

It is another thing to actually SUIT UP...LACE EM' UP...and PLAY TOGETHER.

The facts are THIS - Kobe Bean Bryant played a HUGE hand in running Shaquille O'Neal out of LA and effectively ending the Laker's run of Banners...stopped them short of catching BOS.

Thank Goodness. Thank you Kobe. (Boston Celtics Fan).

There is no way that Kobe Bean Bryant is being ANYONE's 1A...was Michael a "1A"? Nope.

again, shaq left town because he was lazy and kobe hated someone not working as hard as he did.

Thats on shaq, not kobe

Also Jerry West himself blames the riff on Shaq, not Kobe.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 12:57:54 PM by Silky »

Re: 2019 Historical Draft Thread(Round 2 over. Have a great weekend!!!)
« Reply #565 on: August 25, 2019, 12:53:28 PM »

Offline Silky

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Wew 26 hours left before the draft resumes. Can't wait!

Yeah..."SOME" of us DO have picks in tomorrow's round.

hopefully you use them on good players.

Re: 2019 Historical Draft Thread(Round 2 over. Have a great weekend!!!)
« Reply #566 on: August 25, 2019, 01:00:40 PM »

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I have been watching past all star games for the last few months and one of the strange things was about Hakeem Olajuwon. He seemed to have less of an offensive impact than other centers of that time.

It is only the all-star game. It doesn't matter much.

However, I also remember the same happening on Dream Team III. Hakeem was just exiting his prime but he was still dropping 27ppg for the Rockets the year before.

The Rockets surrounded Hakeem with role players. He was the focal point. Everything revolved around him. Which makes me wonder if there is something about his game that makes him fall away a bit when surrounded by other top offensive options. It is strange because Hakeem was such a well rounded scorer. But he was also a heavy iso scorer.

It is not something I would be overly concerned about (because Hakeem would still be super-effective even in a 15-20ppg role as a defender / scorer) but it is something to think about.

---------------

I am not against the Kobe & Hakeem combo. I think they can work well together. That team could go a few different ways and build something awesome.

I hadn't thought of a high end glue guy for them. That wouldn't be a priority for me but it would work well for them.

I love the defense & quickness of the combination most of all. That is what stands out most to me (more than their scoring punch). And that is a fantastic base to build around (darn you Dirk!). Then they have tremendous iso scorers to fall back on when defenses D up and Kobe's playmaking from the wing (to aid your PG and give extra creativity). There is lots of ways to build a top notch team around that.

-------------

On another note, I'd rate Hakeem's passing similar to Dirk's. It is good and they showed that they could run an offense through them and win a title ... but it doesn't stand out next to the greatest of the great (teams that revolve around Bird, Magic, MJ, LeBron, Oscar, even Shaq) that each will be competing against in this tournament.

Personally, I think Hakeem is more suited to a lesser role because of that. More of a 18-22ppg threat than a 25-30ppg threat. Let him concentrate more on his defense and wrecking havoc on opposing team's offenses.


Hakeem can take over when needed, but I do believe that he is best served as a lynch pin of the offense.

Put him in the high post and run things around him, I believe his points would indeed go down, but he was an exceptional passer. I firmly believe as a playmaker out of the high post his assist numbers go even higher.

And less effort on offense allows he to be even more of a defensive mosnter.
Young Hakeem would be a better fit then, iirc Hakeem maxed out on defense in the late 80s. He was basically the 80s version of Russell by trading passing and BBIQ for isolation offense.
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Re: 2019 Historical Draft Thread(Round 2 over. Have a great weekend!!!)
« Reply #567 on: August 25, 2019, 01:00:53 PM »

Offline action781

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Somebody, can you elaborate on what you mean when you call a player a "floor raiser"?  I've never heard the term before.
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Re: 2019 Historical Draft Thread(Round 2 over. Have a great weekend!!!)
« Reply #568 on: August 25, 2019, 01:03:32 PM »

Offline action781

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Young Hakeem would be a better fit then, iirc Hakeem maxed out on defense in the late 80s.
He won back to back DPOYs in the mid 90s, which was an era of several all-time great NBA defenders. 

I didn't get to watch much Hakeem in the late 80s, so I can't say for certain, but I did watch a lot of him in the mid 90s and I can't fathom much better defense than his in the 90s.
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Re: 2019 Historical Draft Thread(Round 2 over. Have a great weekend!!!)
« Reply #569 on: August 25, 2019, 01:11:36 PM »

Offline Somebody

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Somebody, can you elaborate on what you mean when you call a player a "floor raiser"?  I've never heard the term before.
This link sums it up pretty well: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6up1ur/defining_raising_the_floor_and_raising_the/

Only quibble I'd have is that "floor raisers" usually are high usage guzzlers who have a decent package of scoring and creation, ala the Doctor, who had high volume scoring on moderate efficiency and average creation. LeBron is the best floor raiser of all time with his ability to do so much with spare pieces, while Hakeem is in the second rung of all time greats who're just behind Bron.

Another quibble I'd have is that "ceiling raisers" are usually players who "scale" well on teams flush with offensive talent. This image shows how skills scale on teams: .

So while a guy like Bron/Hakeem/Kobe/Doctor/Magic might be great floor raisers who can carry a team to relevancy or even excellence, they may suffer from diminishing marginal returns on talented teams that have good offensive players, as they may also require the ball to do their thing on offense. That's why I wasn't high on some picks/duos-great players on paper, but how would those players play together? If you have some great floor raisers scale back their games just to fit into the system, you're probably not building a team that can win this game imo.
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