Suns beat the 76ers lol

[seancally]

When's the last time Horford cracked 30 points?

He was still a Hawk!

http://bkref.com/tiny/427Qo

This includes playoffs too, really surprised he didn't get 30 as a Celtic ever.

5 for 8 from 3 surely helps.

Interesting the amount they are using him so far as well. 33 minutes a game seems like a lot for a 33 year old Horford who has not seen this kind of usage since he was 27. Time will tell if that wears him down towards when they need him most. I say that cannot continue without paying the piper later in the year/playoffs.

On a different front, his plus minus this year is the highest it has ever been at almost 9 per game. Early on I know but still very impressive. Having that beast next to him I am sure makes a big difference.

He is thriving so far.

Well, they paid him, guess they gotta play him...

Thought he hadn't cracked 30 in BOS.

[Donoghus]

I'm just glad Philly finally lost and Ben Simmons scored only 6 points (in 35 minutes) without Embiid even playing.  Simmons is a highly overrated NBA player and a punk.

He had 7 steals, 6 assists, and 5 rebounds.  That 7 steals is quite impressive (the highest single game since they kept that stat was Kendall Gill's 11 in 1999).

Those are impressive but at some point the game is decided by the ball going through the basket. While Simons is a very good athlete with great length he's not a freak in either regard, and although that combination can get you far he's gonna need to add at least some shooting ability to really reach his top end potential. Right now he's an all star level guy, with an average jump shot he'd be an MVP candidate.

Agreed. It all depends on what your expectations are. If we're grading Simmons on the
Rondo-curve, sure he's a valuable player. But he's a guy many hoped would be a franchise superstar. If that's the standard, then the expectations are too high based on what we've seen from him so far.

For years this board claimed Rondo was a superstar and a franchise level player.  Simmons is already better than Rondo ever was.

This board?? Care to clarify?

Rondo was a lightning rod on these boards.   Some saw him as a franchise guy/alpha dog.  Some saw him more as a 2nd or 3rd banana.  Others just wanted him off the team.   It really ran the gamut.  He was a pretty divisive player.

But we've seen that with a handful of players over the years but the Rondo arguments might have been the most vocal.    Some of the loudest posters on the boards during that time were very vocal one way or another.

[Moranis]

I'm just glad Philly finally lost and Ben Simmons scored only 6 points (in 35 minutes) without Embiid even playing.  Simmons is a highly overrated NBA player and a punk.

He had 7 steals, 6 assists, and 5 rebounds.  That 7 steals is quite impressive (the highest single game since they kept that stat was Kendall Gill's 11 in 1999).

Those are impressive but at some point the game is decided by the ball going through the basket. While Simons is a very good athlete with great length he's not a freak in either regard, and although that combination can get you far he's gonna need to add at least some shooting ability to really reach his top end potential. Right now he's an all star level guy, with an average jump shot he'd be an MVP candidate.

Agreed. It all depends on what your expectations are. If we're grading Simmons on the
Rondo-curve, sure he's a valuable player. But he's a guy many hoped would be a franchise superstar. If that's the standard, then the expectations are too high based on what we've seen from him so far.

For years this board claimed Rondo was a superstar and a franchise level player.  Simmons is already better than Rondo ever was.

Ehhhh ....


Show me a playoff series that Simmons dominated against an MVP caliber opponent and we'll talk.


Rondo's thing all along was that he was much better in the playoffs than during the regular season.

Which MVP caliber opponent did Rondo play?  And just so we are clear, Rondo's best post-season season was the 2012 playoffs where per 36 he averaged 14.6 points, 10.1 assists, 5.7 rebounds, 2.0 steals with 3.2 turnovers and had a TS% of 50.5 (that as over 19 games and was well into his career and his peak season). 

Simmons's career playoffs per 36 (22 games) he is at 15.0 points, 6.8 assists, 9.2 rebounds, 1.5 steals with 3.5 turnovers and a TS% of 58.1. 

Rondo's "playoff" bump was quite simply him playing nearly the full game.  His actual on court production per minute was very similar whether it was the regular season or post season even in his heyday.  Rondo also had some downright terrible games, like game 5 against Miami that year when he was 3 of 15 and scored 7 points.  Earlier that playoff run he had an 8 point 4 of 12 game and a 9 point 4 of 14 game.  He had more games under 15 points (7 under, 2 at 15) as he did over 20 points (5 over, 2 at 20) and that was his best playoff season.  This "Playoff Rondo" idea was always a myth.  He quite simply just played more minutes. 

Simmons has already had a better overall season than Rondo did in his prime. 

[celticsclay]

I'm just glad Philly finally lost and Ben Simmons scored only 6 points (in 35 minutes) without Embiid even playing.  Simmons is a highly overrated NBA player and a punk.

He had 7 steals, 6 assists, and 5 rebounds.  That 7 steals is quite impressive (the highest single game since they kept that stat was Kendall Gill's 11 in 1999).

Those are impressive but at some point the game is decided by the ball going through the basket. While Simons is a very good athlete with great length he's not a freak in either regard, and although that combination can get you far he's gonna need to add at least some shooting ability to really reach his top end potential. Right now he's an all star level guy, with an average jump shot he'd be an MVP candidate.

Agreed. It all depends on what your expectations are. If we're grading Simmons on the
Rondo-curve, sure he's a valuable player. But he's a guy many hoped would be a franchise superstar. If that's the standard, then the expectations are too high based on what we've seen from him so far.

For years this board claimed Rondo was a superstar and a franchise level player.  Simmons is already better than Rondo ever was.

Ehhhh ....


Show me a playoff series that Simmons dominated against an MVP caliber opponent and we'll talk.


Rondo's thing all along was that he was much better in the playoffs than during the regular season.

Which MVP caliber opponent did Rondo play?  And just so we are clear, Rondo's best post-season season was the 2012 playoffs where per 36 he averaged 14.6 points, 10.1 assists, 5.7 rebounds, 2.0 steals with 3.2 turnovers and had a TS% of 50.5 (that as over 19 games and was well into his career and his peak season). 

Simmons's career playoffs per 36 (22 games) he is at 15.0 points, 6.8 assists, 9.2 rebounds, 1.5 steals with 3.5 turnovers and a TS% of 58.1. 

Rondo's "playoff" bump was quite simply him playing nearly the full game.  His actual on court production per minute was very similar whether it was the regular season or post season even in his heyday.  Rondo also had some downright terrible games, like game 5 against Miami that year when he was 3 of 15 and scored 7 points.  Earlier that playoff run he had an 8 point 4 of 12 game and a 9 point 4 of 14 game.  He had more games under 15 points (7 under, 2 at 15) as he did over 20 points (5 over, 2 at 20) and that was his best playoff season.  This "Playoff Rondo" idea was always a myth.  He quite simply just played more minutes. 

Simmons has already had a better overall season than Rondo did in his prime.

Why do you think Simmons has not made an all-defensive team yet (Since you are saying he is already better) when Rondo made 1st team twice, second team twice?
Why do you think Simmons has never made an all-nba team but Rondo has?

It is interesting because I feel like you value these when comparing players historically on this board, but don't seem to think they are relevant here? Curious what you think.

[Fafnir]

I'm just glad Philly finally lost and Ben Simmons scored only 6 points (in 35 minutes) without Embiid even playing.  Simmons is a highly overrated NBA player and a punk.

He had 7 steals, 6 assists, and 5 rebounds.  That 7 steals is quite impressive (the highest single game since they kept that stat was Kendall Gill's 11 in 1999).

Those are impressive but at some point the game is decided by the ball going through the basket. While Simons is a very good athlete with great length he's not a freak in either regard, and although that combination can get you far he's gonna need to add at least some shooting ability to really reach his top end potential. Right now he's an all star level guy, with an average jump shot he'd be an MVP candidate.

Agreed. It all depends on what your expectations are. If we're grading Simmons on the
Rondo-curve, sure he's a valuable player. But he's a guy many hoped would be a franchise superstar. If that's the standard, then the expectations are too high based on what we've seen from him so far.

For years this board claimed Rondo was a superstar and a franchise level player.  Simmons is already better than Rondo ever was.

This board?? Care to clarify?

Rondo was a lightning rod on these boards.   Some saw him as a franchise guy/alpha dog.  Some saw him more as a 2nd or 3rd banana.  Others just wanted him off the team.   It really ran the gamut.  He was a pretty divisive player.

But we've seen that with a handful of players over the years but the Rondo arguments might have been the most vocal.    Some of the loudest posters on the boards during that time were very vocal one way or another.

I also enjoy the fact the way Kobe played Rondo in the Finals probably started the revolution of treating non-shooters as someone you park your help defender on to crush a team's offense especially in the half court. (This was then adopted versus Tony Allen and now every team does it to most non-shooters even in the regular season)

Which is a problem that one Ben Simmons faces. Tall Rondo indeed lol.

[Moranis]

I'm just glad Philly finally lost and Ben Simmons scored only 6 points (in 35 minutes) without Embiid even playing.  Simmons is a highly overrated NBA player and a punk.

He had 7 steals, 6 assists, and 5 rebounds.  That 7 steals is quite impressive (the highest single game since they kept that stat was Kendall Gill's 11 in 1999).

Those are impressive but at some point the game is decided by the ball going through the basket. While Simons is a very good athlete with great length he's not a freak in either regard, and although that combination can get you far he's gonna need to add at least some shooting ability to really reach his top end potential. Right now he's an all star level guy, with an average jump shot he'd be an MVP candidate.

Agreed. It all depends on what your expectations are. If we're grading Simmons on the
Rondo-curve, sure he's a valuable player. But he's a guy many hoped would be a franchise superstar. If that's the standard, then the expectations are too high based on what we've seen from him so far.

For years this board claimed Rondo was a superstar and a franchise level player.  Simmons is already better than Rondo ever was.

Ehhhh ....


Show me a playoff series that Simmons dominated against an MVP caliber opponent and we'll talk.


Rondo's thing all along was that he was much better in the playoffs than during the regular season.

Which MVP caliber opponent did Rondo play?  And just so we are clear, Rondo's best post-season season was the 2012 playoffs where per 36 he averaged 14.6 points, 10.1 assists, 5.7 rebounds, 2.0 steals with 3.2 turnovers and had a TS% of 50.5 (that as over 19 games and was well into his career and his peak season). 

Simmons's career playoffs per 36 (22 games) he is at 15.0 points, 6.8 assists, 9.2 rebounds, 1.5 steals with 3.5 turnovers and a TS% of 58.1. 

Rondo's "playoff" bump was quite simply him playing nearly the full game.  His actual on court production per minute was very similar whether it was the regular season or post season even in his heyday.  Rondo also had some downright terrible games, like game 5 against Miami that year when he was 3 of 15 and scored 7 points.  Earlier that playoff run he had an 8 point 4 of 12 game and a 9 point 4 of 14 game.  He had more games under 15 points (7 under, 2 at 15) as he did over 20 points (5 over, 2 at 20) and that was his best playoff season.  This "Playoff Rondo" idea was always a myth.  He quite simply just played more minutes. 

Simmons has already had a better overall season than Rondo did in his prime.

Why do you think Simmons has not made an all-defensive team yet (Since you are saying he is already better) when Rondo made 1st team twice, second team twice?
Why do you think Simmons has never made an all-nba team but Rondo has?

It is interesting because I feel like you value these when comparing players historically on this board, but don't seem to think they are relevant here? Curious what you think.

Because he is in his 3rd year and those are often reputation driven and require some time to build up the reputation.  Rondo made his first All Defense (2nd team) in his 3rd season.  Then went 1st, 1st, and 2nd and in that final season finally made the 3rd team All NBA.  There are legitimate arguments though that Rondo was at his best defensively in his 2nd year despite the fact he didn't make an All Defense team that season.  I think his best defensive season was his 3rd year when he only was 2nd Team, despite him the 2 seasons after that making the 1st Team.  There is a natural progression on these things and you often don't get rewarded when you are actually most deserving and first have to prove it wasn't a fluke. 

That said, right now Rondo's peak he was a slightly better overall defender than Simmons is currently though Simmons' size is very disruptive defensively and he isn't that far behind as an overall defender (simmons is better in team defense, and not as good in man to man).  Obviously Rondo being a more traditional PG is a better passer, but Simmons is better at basically everything else.  He is a far more efficient scorer.  He is a better rebounder.  He is more difficult to guard in both transition and half court.  He affects the game in far more ways than Rondo ever did (the advanced metrics support that). 

[GreenCoffeeBean]

I'm gonna need somebody to write a detailed article explaining how the suns are suddenly a good team.

Was it bill simmons spending the whole summer razzing Devin Booker for not playing in fiba?

Easy. The Suns finally got rid of all their draft busts.

[celticsclay]

I'm just glad Philly finally lost and Ben Simmons scored only 6 points (in 35 minutes) without Embiid even playing.  Simmons is a highly overrated NBA player and a punk.

He had 7 steals, 6 assists, and 5 rebounds.  That 7 steals is quite impressive (the highest single game since they kept that stat was Kendall Gill's 11 in 1999).

Those are impressive but at some point the game is decided by the ball going through the basket. While Simons is a very good athlete with great length he's not a freak in either regard, and although that combination can get you far he's gonna need to add at least some shooting ability to really reach his top end potential. Right now he's an all star level guy, with an average jump shot he'd be an MVP candidate.

Agreed. It all depends on what your expectations are. If we're grading Simmons on the
Rondo-curve, sure he's a valuable player. But he's a guy many hoped would be a franchise superstar. If that's the standard, then the expectations are too high based on what we've seen from him so far.

For years this board claimed Rondo was a superstar and a franchise level player.  Simmons is already better than Rondo ever was.

Ehhhh ....


Show me a playoff series that Simmons dominated against an MVP caliber opponent and we'll talk.


Rondo's thing all along was that he was much better in the playoffs than during the regular season.

Which MVP caliber opponent did Rondo play?  And just so we are clear, Rondo's best post-season season was the 2012 playoffs where per 36 he averaged 14.6 points, 10.1 assists, 5.7 rebounds, 2.0 steals with 3.2 turnovers and had a TS% of 50.5 (that as over 19 games and was well into his career and his peak season). 

Simmons's career playoffs per 36 (22 games) he is at 15.0 points, 6.8 assists, 9.2 rebounds, 1.5 steals with 3.5 turnovers and a TS% of 58.1. 

Rondo's "playoff" bump was quite simply him playing nearly the full game.  His actual on court production per minute was very similar whether it was the regular season or post season even in his heyday.  Rondo also had some downright terrible games, like game 5 against Miami that year when he was 3 of 15 and scored 7 points.  Earlier that playoff run he had an 8 point 4 of 12 game and a 9 point 4 of 14 game.  He had more games under 15 points (7 under, 2 at 15) as he did over 20 points (5 over, 2 at 20) and that was his best playoff season.  This "Playoff Rondo" idea was always a myth.  He quite simply just played more minutes. 

Simmons has already had a better overall season than Rondo did in his prime.

Why do you think Simmons has not made an all-defensive team yet (Since you are saying he is already better) when Rondo made 1st team twice, second team twice?
Why do you think Simmons has never made an all-nba team but Rondo has?

It is interesting because I feel like you value these when comparing players historically on this board, but don't seem to think they are relevant here? Curious what you think.

Because he is in his 3rd year and those are often reputation driven and require some time to build up the reputation.  Rondo made his first All Defense (2nd team) in his 3rd season.  Then went 1st, 1st, and 2nd and in that final season finally made the 3rd team All NBA.  There are legitimate arguments though that Rondo was at his best defensively in his 2nd year despite the fact he didn't make an All Defense team that season.  I think his best defensive season was his 3rd year when he only was 2nd Team, despite him the 2 seasons after that making the 1st Team.  There is a natural progression on these things and you often don't get rewarded when you are actually most deserving and first have to prove it wasn't a fluke. 

That said, right now Rondo's peak he was a slightly better overall defender than Simmons is currently though Simmons' size is very disruptive defensively and he isn't that far behind as an overall defender (simmons is better in team defense, and not as good in man to man).  Obviously Rondo being a more traditional PG is a better passer, but Simmons is better at basically everything else.  He is a far more efficient scorer.  He is a better rebounder.  He is more difficult to guard in both transition and half court.  He affects the game in far more ways than Rondo ever did (the advanced metrics support that).

This seems like a real stretch to me. Simmons very well could, and perhaps likely will, have a better peak than Rondo will, but he just isn't there yet. His numbers advanced and regular are down across the board this season. Right now, it doesn't look like he would make the all-star game this season. The growth everyone thought they would see out him, where we would at least get some midrange jumpers, has not materialized this year so far after an offseason video sharing shots of his jumper. Now don't get this twisted, i am not even talking about three pointers, which seem like a pipedream, I am actually just talking even a mid range to keep players honest. At this point in the 4th year since he was drafted, I am honestly starting to question his desire to improve, or whether he would rather just a be a celebrity basketball player...

[Moranis]

I'm just glad Philly finally lost and Ben Simmons scored only 6 points (in 35 minutes) without Embiid even playing.  Simmons is a highly overrated NBA player and a punk.

He had 7 steals, 6 assists, and 5 rebounds.  That 7 steals is quite impressive (the highest single game since they kept that stat was Kendall Gill's 11 in 1999).

Those are impressive but at some point the game is decided by the ball going through the basket. While Simons is a very good athlete with great length he's not a freak in either regard, and although that combination can get you far he's gonna need to add at least some shooting ability to really reach his top end potential. Right now he's an all star level guy, with an average jump shot he'd be an MVP candidate.

Agreed. It all depends on what your expectations are. If we're grading Simmons on the
Rondo-curve, sure he's a valuable player. But he's a guy many hoped would be a franchise superstar. If that's the standard, then the expectations are too high based on what we've seen from him so far.

For years this board claimed Rondo was a superstar and a franchise level player.  Simmons is already better than Rondo ever was.

Ehhhh ....


Show me a playoff series that Simmons dominated against an MVP caliber opponent and we'll talk.


Rondo's thing all along was that he was much better in the playoffs than during the regular season.

Which MVP caliber opponent did Rondo play?  And just so we are clear, Rondo's best post-season season was the 2012 playoffs where per 36 he averaged 14.6 points, 10.1 assists, 5.7 rebounds, 2.0 steals with 3.2 turnovers and had a TS% of 50.5 (that as over 19 games and was well into his career and his peak season). 

Simmons's career playoffs per 36 (22 games) he is at 15.0 points, 6.8 assists, 9.2 rebounds, 1.5 steals with 3.5 turnovers and a TS% of 58.1. 

Rondo's "playoff" bump was quite simply him playing nearly the full game.  His actual on court production per minute was very similar whether it was the regular season or post season even in his heyday.  Rondo also had some downright terrible games, like game 5 against Miami that year when he was 3 of 15 and scored 7 points.  Earlier that playoff run he had an 8 point 4 of 12 game and a 9 point 4 of 14 game.  He had more games under 15 points (7 under, 2 at 15) as he did over 20 points (5 over, 2 at 20) and that was his best playoff season.  This "Playoff Rondo" idea was always a myth.  He quite simply just played more minutes. 

Simmons has already had a better overall season than Rondo did in his prime.

Why do you think Simmons has not made an all-defensive team yet (Since you are saying he is already better) when Rondo made 1st team twice, second team twice?
Why do you think Simmons has never made an all-nba team but Rondo has?

It is interesting because I feel like you value these when comparing players historically on this board, but don't seem to think they are relevant here? Curious what you think.

Because he is in his 3rd year and those are often reputation driven and require some time to build up the reputation.  Rondo made his first All Defense (2nd team) in his 3rd season.  Then went 1st, 1st, and 2nd and in that final season finally made the 3rd team All NBA.  There are legitimate arguments though that Rondo was at his best defensively in his 2nd year despite the fact he didn't make an All Defense team that season.  I think his best defensive season was his 3rd year when he only was 2nd Team, despite him the 2 seasons after that making the 1st Team.  There is a natural progression on these things and you often don't get rewarded when you are actually most deserving and first have to prove it wasn't a fluke. 

That said, right now Rondo's peak he was a slightly better overall defender than Simmons is currently though Simmons' size is very disruptive defensively and he isn't that far behind as an overall defender (simmons is better in team defense, and not as good in man to man).  Obviously Rondo being a more traditional PG is a better passer, but Simmons is better at basically everything else.  He is a far more efficient scorer.  He is a better rebounder.  He is more difficult to guard in both transition and half court.  He affects the game in far more ways than Rondo ever did (the advanced metrics support that).

This seems like a real stretch to me. Simmons very well could, and perhaps likely will, have a better peak than Rondo will, but he just isn't there yet. His numbers advanced and regular are down across the board this season. Right now, it doesn't look like he would make the all-star game this season. The growth everyone thought they would see out him, where we would at least get some midrange jumpers, has not materialized this year so far after an offseason video sharing shots of his jumper. Now don't get this twisted, i am not even talking about three pointers, which seem like a pipedream, I am actually just talking even a mid range to keep players honest. At this point in the 4th year since he was drafted, I am honestly starting to question his desire to improve, or whether he would rather just a be a celebrity basketball player...

His last game skewed all of his numbers.  Before that he was similar or better in most statistical categories from the prior season.  It is a little disconcerting that he isn't shooting more or better from long range (but that isn't exactly something Rondo ever did either, who he is being compared to in this line of the thread). 

Simmons isn't a #1 option though and never will be.  I do think it is strange that so many hold him to that standard when that quite simply isn't his strengths or something he will ever be. 

[PhoSita]

Which MVP caliber opponent did Rondo play? 

Man I know you ain't forgotten the 2010 series against the Cavs.  Unless you blocked it out.

[celticsclay]

I'm just glad Philly finally lost and Ben Simmons scored only 6 points (in 35 minutes) without Embiid even playing.  Simmons is a highly overrated NBA player and a punk.

He had 7 steals, 6 assists, and 5 rebounds.  That 7 steals is quite impressive (the highest single game since they kept that stat was Kendall Gill's 11 in 1999).

Those are impressive but at some point the game is decided by the ball going through the basket. While Simons is a very good athlete with great length he's not a freak in either regard, and although that combination can get you far he's gonna need to add at least some shooting ability to really reach his top end potential. Right now he's an all star level guy, with an average jump shot he'd be an MVP candidate.

Agreed. It all depends on what your expectations are. If we're grading Simmons on the
Rondo-curve, sure he's a valuable player. But he's a guy many hoped would be a franchise superstar. If that's the standard, then the expectations are too high based on what we've seen from him so far.

For years this board claimed Rondo was a superstar and a franchise level player.  Simmons is already better than Rondo ever was.

Ehhhh ....


Show me a playoff series that Simmons dominated against an MVP caliber opponent and we'll talk.


Rondo's thing all along was that he was much better in the playoffs than during the regular season.

Which MVP caliber opponent did Rondo play?  And just so we are clear, Rondo's best post-season season was the 2012 playoffs where per 36 he averaged 14.6 points, 10.1 assists, 5.7 rebounds, 2.0 steals with 3.2 turnovers and had a TS% of 50.5 (that as over 19 games and was well into his career and his peak season). 

Simmons's career playoffs per 36 (22 games) he is at 15.0 points, 6.8 assists, 9.2 rebounds, 1.5 steals with 3.5 turnovers and a TS% of 58.1. 

Rondo's "playoff" bump was quite simply him playing nearly the full game.  His actual on court production per minute was very similar whether it was the regular season or post season even in his heyday.  Rondo also had some downright terrible games, like game 5 against Miami that year when he was 3 of 15 and scored 7 points.  Earlier that playoff run he had an 8 point 4 of 12 game and a 9 point 4 of 14 game.  He had more games under 15 points (7 under, 2 at 15) as he did over 20 points (5 over, 2 at 20) and that was his best playoff season.  This "Playoff Rondo" idea was always a myth.  He quite simply just played more minutes. 

Simmons has already had a better overall season than Rondo did in his prime.

Why do you think Simmons has not made an all-defensive team yet (Since you are saying he is already better) when Rondo made 1st team twice, second team twice?
Why do you think Simmons has never made an all-nba team but Rondo has?

It is interesting because I feel like you value these when comparing players historically on this board, but don't seem to think they are relevant here? Curious what you think.

Because he is in his 3rd year and those are often reputation driven and require some time to build up the reputation.  Rondo made his first All Defense (2nd team) in his 3rd season.  Then went 1st, 1st, and 2nd and in that final season finally made the 3rd team All NBA.  There are legitimate arguments though that Rondo was at his best defensively in his 2nd year despite the fact he didn't make an All Defense team that season.  I think his best defensive season was his 3rd year when he only was 2nd Team, despite him the 2 seasons after that making the 1st Team.  There is a natural progression on these things and you often don't get rewarded when you are actually most deserving and first have to prove it wasn't a fluke. 

That said, right now Rondo's peak he was a slightly better overall defender than Simmons is currently though Simmons' size is very disruptive defensively and he isn't that far behind as an overall defender (simmons is better in team defense, and not as good in man to man).  Obviously Rondo being a more traditional PG is a better passer, but Simmons is better at basically everything else.  He is a far more efficient scorer.  He is a better rebounder.  He is more difficult to guard in both transition and half court.  He affects the game in far more ways than Rondo ever did (the advanced metrics support that).

This seems like a real stretch to me. Simmons very well could, and perhaps likely will, have a better peak than Rondo will, but he just isn't there yet. His numbers advanced and regular are down across the board this season. Right now, it doesn't look like he would make the all-star game this season. The growth everyone thought they would see out him, where we would at least get some midrange jumpers, has not materialized this year so far after an offseason video sharing shots of his jumper. Now don't get this twisted, i am not even talking about three pointers, which seem like a pipedream, I am actually just talking even a mid range to keep players honest. At this point in the 4th year since he was drafted, I am honestly starting to question his desire to improve, or whether he would rather just a be a celebrity basketball player...

His last game skewed all of his numbers.  Before that he was similar or better in most statistical categories from the prior season.  It is a little disconcerting that he isn't shooting more or better from long range (but that isn't exactly something Rondo ever did either, who he is being compared to in this line of the thread). 

Simmons isn't a #1 option though and never will be.  I do think it is strange that so many hold him to that standard when that quite simply isn't his strengths or something he will ever be.

According to Ringer podcast, he has taken one shot from like deeper than 12 feet this season. Right now he is making Rondo look like he is Curry range and he can't even hit the shots that someone Boban can. I do think it is strange you don't find this to be concerning when even his coach does.

[celticsclay]

Which MVP caliber opponent did Rondo play? 

Man I know you ain't forgotten the 2010 series against the Cavs.  Unless you blocked it out.

That gave me a chuckle. TP Phosita.

[gouki88]

I'm just glad Philly finally lost and Ben Simmons scored only 6 points (in 35 minutes) without Embiid even playing.  Simmons is a highly overrated NBA player and a punk.

He had 7 steals, 6 assists, and 5 rebounds.  That 7 steals is quite impressive (the highest single game since they kept that stat was Kendall Gill's 11 in 1999).

Those are impressive but at some point the game is decided by the ball going through the basket. While Simons is a very good athlete with great length he's not a freak in either regard, and although that combination can get you far he's gonna need to add at least some shooting ability to really reach his top end potential. Right now he's an all star level guy, with an average jump shot he'd be an MVP candidate.

Agreed. It all depends on what your expectations are. If we're grading Simmons on the
Rondo-curve, sure he's a valuable player. But he's a guy many hoped would be a franchise superstar. If that's the standard, then the expectations are too high based on what we've seen from him so far.

For years this board claimed Rondo was a superstar and a franchise level player.  Simmons is already better than Rondo ever was.

Lol. No he's not.

All Defensive team player, champion and a guy who elevates his play time and again in the playoffs vs a guy who breaks his own offence come playoff time.

[bdm860]

All this Simmons/Rondo talk reminds me of the Simmons scouting report before he was drafted, way back from March 2016:

Brandon Ingram is now ranked the No. 1 prospect in the 2016 NBA Draft class by Draft Express over Ben Simmons.

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Simmons has received criticism for his lack of competitiveness and also for producing hollow box scores.

"One NBA executive described him as a “taller Rajon Rondo, a more athletic Evan Turner, or a skinnier Royce White”," wrote Givony.

Jonathan Givony/The Vertical

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/241201/Ben-Simmons-Compared-To-Taller-Rondo-More-Athletic-Turner-Skinnier-Royce-White

I've seen this description a few times now, and find it funny as it's supposed to portray Simmons flaws, so they describe him as a taller Rajon Rondo.


But if you had a 6'10" Rajon Rondo, that guy would be a first ballot HOFer and All-NBA every year.

That's Jason Kidd plus another 6 inches.  So basically Magic Johnson with a weak jumper?

I'm just saying, a taller Rajon Rondo would be an incredible talent.


Edit - I see Pho's thinking the same thing.

The thing is, a 6'10'' Rondo or a very athletic version of Evan Turner could be really, really good.

I think so far Simmons has lived up to that (maybe not my lofty perennial All-NBA 1st team and 1st ballot HOFer goals yet, but still possible).

Very different personalities, but very similar skills.  Rondo's a better passer, while Simmons is a better rebounder, scorer, and defender due to his size.  Inch-for-inch though, Rondo might be a better scorer/rebounder/defender, of course inch-for-inch Isaiah Thomas is probably a better scorer than Wilt, means nothing).  Can't hate on Simmons for being tall in the NBA.

[Moranis]

Which MVP caliber opponent did Rondo play? 

Man I know you ain't forgotten the 2010 series against the Cavs.  Unless you blocked it out.

Rondo guarded Lebron?