Author Topic: Crossroads.  (Read 11444 times)

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Re: Crossroads.
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2014, 01:24:56 PM »

Offline lantinm

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LarBrd33 - TP for your post.  It was well thought out and I appreciate the fact that you discussed both of our options (in great detail) concerning Rondo moving forward.  Personally though, I believe that Ainge values Rondo more than any other GM in the league, and I think he will ask for the moon in any deal.  I also believe that if Rondo is going to be dealt, it will be on draft night.  I think Danny will try to get into the Top 3 spots (for Wiggins, Parker, or Embiid) AND he'll expect that team to take on Wallace's contract as well.

Orlando and  Sacramento should be the targets, with us taking on the bloated (but expiring in 2014/15) contracts of Nelson, Davis, and Harrington or Thornton, Thompson, and Outlaw.  Note: Thompson would have 3 years/18 mill remaining. With two potential Top 5 picks, I can see him taking Smart and Wiggins/Parker, and then taking a kid like Dario Saric or a finished product like Doug McDermott with the BKN/ATL pick.  I also think he'll wait until the 2015 draft to grab a young center like Jahlil Okafor, Myles Turner, or Karl Towns.

Re: Crossroads.
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2014, 01:26:18 PM »

Offline BballTim

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#3 - Rajon Rondo's return, while exciting, will not make us good.  We will not suddenly be transformed from 28 win bottom-feeder to 50 win world-beater.  We could theoretically go .500 from here on out under Rondo's leadership... 21-21.  We'd finish the season with 35 wins... which is right within the 25-36 win range everyone expected.
This feels like revisionist history.  I feel like I was one of the few people who would have been willing to bet before the season on the Celtics winning at least 30 games when there were plenty of people who said the team would be lucky to win 25, so to say that a 35-win season is within the range that everyone expected feels like moving the goalposts to downplay any interpretation of Rondo as a player who can be built around if the Celtics play .500 ball after his return.


  It's awfully revisionist. Right now there are 12 teams besides the Celts on a pace of winning less than 35 games. Picking 12 teams to be worse than the Celts would put you way up on the prediction spectrum.


« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 02:11:55 PM by BballTim »

Re: Crossroads.
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2014, 01:33:09 PM »

Online Boris Badenov

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I think the OP presents the choice as much more all-or-nothing than it really is.

Keeping Rondo past the deadline this year doesn't commit us to anything. We could just as easily trade him before the draft...or in a year. So one question is, how does his trade value now compare to his expected trade value later?

I'd argue that his value is very low now. There are a ton of sellers, which is driving down the price of players everywhere. Look how little Chicago got for Deng. Is Rondo really more valuable than Deng right now? How much?

And, I'd argue that his value will probably rise. Uncertainty about his level of play will go away, and unless he's a shadow of himself he'll be at least a borderline All-Star. And after this draft, you'd expect it to be more of a buyer's market.

On the flip side - what do we "lose" by keeping him? The merits of the draft aside, you are looking at maybe +5 wins with Rondo, which translates to perhaps -20% at a top 6 pick, which itself consists of a bunch of guys who are themselves unknown quantities. So by how much, on the margin, do we really improve our expected draft talent without Rondo?

And again, it's a continuum. Rondo might play the last 40 games of the season. He might only play 20. He could get hurt after 5 - look at Rose. So, in all likelihood we are not hurting our draft slot by so much with him as without him.

And even if you think the draft is where you want all your eggs, the right comparison is this:
1. By how many slots would we move up without Rondo on the team for the rest of the year?
2. By how many slots could we move up by packaging Rondo and our 1st round pick on draft day 2014?

To me #2 seems like the far superior bargaining chip, particularly since we will know much more about the draft quality, and be trading Rondo plus our pick for a certain pick rather than a bunch of lottery tickets.


Re: Crossroads.
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2014, 02:12:28 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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#3 - Rajon Rondo's return, while exciting, will not make us good.  We will not suddenly be transformed from 28 win bottom-feeder to 50 win world-beater.  We could theoretically go .500 from here on out under Rondo's leadership... 21-21.  We'd finish the season with 35 wins... which is right within the 25-36 win range everyone expected.

This feels like revisionist history.  I feel like I was one of the few people who would have been willing to bet before the season on the Celtics winning at least 30 games when there were plenty of people who said the team would be lucky to win 25, so to say that a 35-win season is within the range that everyone expected feels like moving the goalposts to downplay any interpretation of Rondo as a player who can be built around if the Celtics play .500 ball after his return.

On the other hand, I feel like I was on the low end of the predictions when I said 26 wins.

Surely there's a thread we can find?

There definitely was a prediction thread out there (maybe multiple ones).  Just not sure where it's buried.

I know we also had a January prediction thread.
The front page of the blog acknowledged that our absolute ceiling this year was 38 wins.  Nothing that has happened this season has been surprising.  We were either bottoming out in the 24-26 win range or Rondo would push us a little higher up.  If everything clicked, the consensus was that this was a max 38 win team.

Regardless, right now we are on pace for 26 wins.  If Rondo doesn't return, we're going to more than likely end up with a Top 5 pick.

Rondo's return could still result in a Top 5 pick... but it also has the potential to accidentally push our below-average team into the playoffs. 

THus, we're at a key moment in our history.  I can see the logic behind cashing in for stars in order to win now.  I can see the logic behind trading Rondo in order to win later.  I don't see the logic behind "standing pat" and watching our below-average team stumble into the playoffs.  Blown opportunity.

Re: Crossroads.
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2014, 02:23:22 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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THus, we're at a key moment in our history.  I can see the logic behind cashing in for stars in order to win now.  I can see the logic behind trading Rondo in order to win later.  I don't see the logic behind "standing pat" and watching our below-average team stumble into the playoffs.  Blown opportunity.

Do you accept the possibility that there might be no good deals available to accomplish either of those goals, but such deals might be available in the off-season, so long as the Celtics don't give up assets unnecessarily for pennies on the dollar?

Making a trade for the sake of making a trade is the sort of mindset that can turn you into the Knicks.
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Re: Crossroads.
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2014, 02:29:04 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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Re: Crossroads.
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2014, 02:29:51 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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THus, we're at a key moment in our history.  I can see the logic behind cashing in for stars in order to win now.  I can see the logic behind trading Rondo in order to win later.  I don't see the logic behind "standing pat" and watching our below-average team stumble into the playoffs.  Blown opportunity.

Do you accept the possibility that there might be no good deals available to accomplish either of those goals, but such deals might be available in the off-season, so long as the Celtics don't give up assets unnecessarily for pennies on the dollar?

Making a trade for the sake of making a trade is the sort of mindset that can turn you into the Knicks.
I hear that argument.  I don't believe we'll have better opportunities in the offseason.  If we're talking about landing stars, Humph's expiring can only be traded prior to the deadline, right?  During the off-season how would we be able to trade him?

If we're talking about getting best value for Rondo... I say there is zero chance you can get a Top 5 pick for him.  The only way you're getting a Top 5 pick is by trading Rondo and allowing your own pick to fall into the Top 5.  There is no sane team that would give up a potential superstar for a former all-star PG.

Also, presuming we "stand pat" and our below average team stumbles to 36 wins, the 8th seed, the #15 pick and a curb-stomping in the 1st round... I think the "Rondo is fleeing Boston" noise starts getting louder.  Come the offseason, teams will be willing to wait out Rondo until the deadline... and you'll ultimately be selling him for pennies on the dollar just to get SOMETHING.

I think the most likely scenario here is Rondo comes back, gives the team a big jolt over the next 16 games... and some desperate team (Bobcats/Pistons) looking to make the playoffs sends us a reasonable offer of assets/expiring contracts and picks.

Granted, there's also the possibility we trade for Eric Gordon or Josh Smith... perhaps we sign Andrew Bynum with our open roster spot.  Who knows.  I can't really predict it.  But whatever happens, we'll look back on this stretch and wonder how our destiny could have been different if Ainge had pursued the alternate option.  I think all of the options are very much on the table for Ainge.   

Re: Crossroads.
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2014, 02:48:10 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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If Rondo leads the Celtics to 40 wins and a six-game exit in the first round, I think you might here rumblings about Carmelo Anthony being intrigued by what they are building in Boston and considering them when he opts out of his contract.  It might not be true, but if it isn't, then I expect someone like Bleacher Report to make it up and report it as a rumor anyways.

I think there are better opportunities for trades in the off-season because you have more flexibility to do deals, including sign-and-trades.  There is a reason why blockbuster deals are more likely to happen in the summer than during the season.  Sure, you lose the ability to trade Humphries as an expiring contract, but you now have Bass as an expiring contract and Bogans as an unguaranteed contract to serve as filler in a deal.
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Re: Crossroads.
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2014, 03:32:31 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Also, presuming we "stand pat" and our below average team stumbles to 36 wins, the 8th seed, the #15 pick and a curb-stomping in the 1st round... I think the "Rondo is fleeing Boston" noise starts getting louder.

  There is no "Rondo is fleeing Boston" noise. He's not saying it, his agent isn't saying it, the team isn't saying it and I don't think I've heard any of his friends/family saying it. It's people like you who can't stand him so they invent reasons to get rid of him.

Re: Crossroads.
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2014, 03:45:24 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Agree with OP

This is one of the points that a choice or path could be forth coming

It seems that Rondo will sorta throw a monkey wrench into  getting a great  lotto pick

I believe Danny will offset the return benefit  of Rondo to the team with a trade or selling off of more assets ....like Bass and Green

I don't see any reason to play for a few wins to mess up the chance at a nice draft ......

This seems the  course .....steady planned dismantle and rebuild of te team built around Rondo and a high draft pick

Re: Crossroads.
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2014, 04:33:31 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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My guess is braintrust has plan for "Rondo impact on draft pick" this season. Lot's O'rest? Brief moments on the court in a losing cause? Don't come on road trips?

Rondo playing hard and winning games seems longshotish. He is risking $15M+ max deal to play on a fully awful team going nowhere?

Maybe, he gets "Pressey minutes."

My guess is Ainge can get full value on draft night. He'll take Rondo, the #4 overall, whatever he needs in salary filler and get......?

I am on the side of keeping the guy as we have nuthin' now. My GUESS is he gets traded for a star. Somebody who is large and knows how to play in the NBA...not the big Ten or the Horizon league or....

How could you risk your only superstar for a draft pick?

Let another GM take that risk. If Rondo gets traded? It will be for a NBA star...not a 19 year old....ok, ok for a guy who just turned 20...close enough.

Re: Crossroads.
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2014, 05:59:53 PM »

Online Boris Badenov

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If we're talking about getting best value for Rondo... I say there is zero chance you can get a Top 5 pick for him.  The only way you're getting a Top 5 pick is by trading Rondo and allowing your own pick to fall into the Top 5.  There is no sane team that would give up a potential superstar for a former all-star PG.


We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this, as I've said it a few times now, but I think our best bet for getting a top 5 pick is letting the season play out and then moving Rondo on draft night.

We might still end up with  a top 5 pick without moving him if Rondo's comeback doesn't change our fortunes, in which case we get the best of both worlds.

If we end up with a pick in the 7-12 range, I think it's perfectly conceivable to trade up into the top 5 on draft night, by packaging our own pick, Rondo, and other assets (like our huge stash of future picks). We have the advantage in that case of knowing with far more certainty exactly who we'll be getting with the pick.

The guiding principle here is that if you want an A+ asset you get it by packaging your best assets together in one deal for a specific player, rather than taking one of your best assets and trading it for a gamble that will unfold over five months.

This all assumes your top goal is getting a top 5 pick in this draft. I'm personally not sold on that, and I know many others aren't either, but if Danny is, then I think moving Rondo now is the wrong decision.

Edit: I'd also argue that if your top goal is trading for an existing superstar, then packaging Rondo + lottery picks is the best way to go. Same principle.

Re: Crossroads.
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2014, 06:12:44 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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If we're talking about getting best value for Rondo... I say there is zero chance you can get a Top 5 pick for him.  The only way you're getting a Top 5 pick is by trading Rondo and allowing your own pick to fall into the Top 5.  There is no sane team that would give up a potential superstar for a former all-star PG.


We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this, as I've said it a few times now, but I think our best bet for getting a top 5 pick is letting the season play out and then moving Rondo on draft night.

We might still end up with  a top 5 pick without moving him if Rondo's comeback doesn't change our fortunes, in which case we get the best of both worlds.

If we end up with a pick in the 7-12 range, I think it's perfectly conceivable to trade up into the top 5 on draft night, by packaging our own pick, Rondo, and other assets (like our huge stash of future picks). We have the advantage in that case of knowing with far more certainty exactly who we'll be getting with the pick.

The guiding principle here is that if you want an A+ asset you get it by packaging your best assets together in one deal for a specific player, rather than taking one of your best assets and trading it for a gamble that will unfold over five months.

This all assumes your top goal is getting a top 5 pick in this draft. I'm personally not sold on that, and I know many others aren't either, but if Danny is, then I think moving Rondo now is the wrong decision.

Edit: I'd also argue that if your top goal is trading for an existing superstar, then packaging Rondo + lottery picks is the best way to go. Same principle.

I agree with this - we can't keep trading down for assets, at some point we've gotta trade up.  Rondo is far more likely to be the centerpiece of that kind of deal than anything else we've got.  Our 1st could be comparably valuable, but not until we know where it is. 

If we can get a superstar for a package including Rondo it may be worth doing; I just don't see it happening til the offseason.

Re: Crossroads.
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2014, 06:42:40 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Also, presuming we "stand pat" and our below average team stumbles to 36 wins, the 8th seed, the #15 pick and a curb-stomping in the 1st round... I think the "Rondo is fleeing Boston" noise starts getting louder.

  There is no "Rondo is fleeing Boston" noise. He's not saying it, his agent isn't saying it, the team isn't saying it and I don't think I've heard any of his friends/family saying it. It's people like you who can't stand him so they invent reasons to get rid of him.

You talk to Rondo and his friends/family/associates often?
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Re: Crossroads.
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2014, 06:43:20 PM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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DA knows this season is a wash. We are nowhere near being contenders and I am sure DA does not want to waste time losing in 5 games in the 1st round.

Have to see what difference rondo makes. Then DA will decide what to do next. I do not think DA wants to miss out on a top 5 pick. 
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