Rajon Rondo vs. Devin Harris

[CoachBo]

To play devil's advocate here, big difference the other direction in scoring.

Harris' deal is pretty close to what I'd go for Rondo. Not a lot more, given the holes in his game.

[Who]

Devin Harris is a short two guard masquerading as a point guard. He's a scorer who can't run an offense.

 That's why he doesn't get mentioned amongst the elite point guards in the league.

[jambr380]

Harris' main problem is he is on a much worse team than Rondo. Yeah, he is a different kind of point guard, but that doesn't mean he isn't as good. You also have to throw Jameer Nelson into this discussion, too (believe it or not). Remember, he is the one that made the all-star team, not Rondo.

8-9 mill/yr is about what I would pay for Rondo. I think he has the 'potential' to be one of the very best pgs in this league, but take away this year's playoffs and people aren't nearly as high on him...again, Rondo does things that NOONE else can do in this league and he is just a joy to watch, but he really does need to work on his shot- even though it 'seems' like it is getting marginally better.

BTW, nice points Roy.

[winsomme]

Devin Harris is a short two guard who can't run an offense. That's why he doesn't get mentioned amongst the elite point guards in the league.

yeah, his game is more two-guard in a PGs body.

[snively]

Also remember that Devin Harris signed his extension before this "breakout" season, so it might be better to judge him off the prior year numbers in which he averaged about 15 pts, 6 assists and 3 boards as the 3rd or 4th option in Dallas for most of the year.

[jambr380]

Also remember that Devin Harris signed his extension before this "breakout" season, so it might be better to judge him off the prior year numbers in which he averaged about 15 pts, 6 assists and 3 boards as the 3rd or 4th option in Dallas for most of the year.

Rondo has always been the 4th option here...I guess that is playing with three hall of famers, but those numbers of Harris' match up pretty well with Rondo's, too...plus, you're supposed to pay a player on potential, not what they have already done for you...I just hope we don't pay Rondo too much on potential that may never be tapped...

[winsomme]

Also remember that Devin Harris signed his extension before this "breakout" season, so it might be better to judge him off the prior year numbers in which he averaged about 15 pts, 6 assists and 3 boards as the 3rd or 4th option in Dallas for most of the year.

Rondo has always been the 4th option here...I guess that is playing with three hall of famers, but those numbers of Harris' match up pretty well with Rondo's, too...plus, you're supposed to pay a player on potential, not what they have already done for you...I just hope we don't pay Rondo too much on potential that may never be tapped...

but again, the "what option is he" angle is deceptive in regards to a pure PG. his job is to get the ball to the scorers in an effective manner....something Rondo is exceedingly good at.

[Roy Hobbs]

Also remember that Devin Harris signed his extension before this "breakout" season, so it might be better to judge him off the prior year numbers in which he averaged about 15 pts, 6 assists and 3 boards as the 3rd or 4th option in Dallas for most of the year.

Rondo has always been the 4th option here...I guess that is playing with three hall of famers, but those numbers of Harris' match up pretty well with Rondo's, too...plus, you're supposed to pay a player on potential, not what they have already done for you...I just hope we don't pay Rondo too much on potential that may never be tapped...

but again, the "what option is he" angle is deceptive in regards to a pure PG. his job is to get the ball to the scorers in an effective manner....something Rondo is exceedingly good at.

True to some extent, but Doc has criticized Rondo for not being more of a scorer.

[winsomme]

Also remember that Devin Harris signed his extension before this "breakout" season, so it might be better to judge him off the prior year numbers in which he averaged about 15 pts, 6 assists and 3 boards as the 3rd or 4th option in Dallas for most of the year.

Rondo has always been the 4th option here...I guess that is playing with three hall of famers, but those numbers of Harris' match up pretty well with Rondo's, too...plus, you're supposed to pay a player on potential, not what they have already done for you...I just hope we don't pay Rondo too much on potential that may never be tapped...

but again, the "what option is he" angle is deceptive in regards to a pure PG. his job is to get the ball to the scorers in an effective manner....something Rondo is exceedingly good at.

True to some extent, but Doc has criticized Rondo for not being more of a scorer.

No, I agree. Rondo needs to develop his scoring abilities more, but it's not his game and really shouldn't be...not on this team anyway.

[billysan]

Both are nice young PG.

Harris is more effective in the half court offensively than Rondo. Rondo is much more disruptive overall defensively. Harris plays good team defense but is not really lock down caliber. He is not as effective a help defender as Rondo, but no PG in the league is IMO.

I think Rondo is most effective offensively when he is focused north to south on the court. When he picks up the ball and starts east to west with his mind on playmaking, he loses some impact.

I would love to see Doc/Rondo race up the court every single possession and attack the basket for stretches during the game. I have always felt that Rondo would like to run more, but we have no one on the starting unit to run with him. A couple of faster, more up tempo guys off the bench would give the Celtics a new exciting dimension.

I would just dare the other team to foul him. They only have so many fouls, he would be a nightmare. I also would make him shoot 100 FT every day with a coach to correct his technique, while hopefully improving his accuracy.

From a money standpoint, Rondo has to have an edge because of his team success. Harris has a stats edge that just might disappear with a team of the caliber of Rondo's Celtics. Less touches and shots would be inevitable as a 4th option, wouldnt it?
  

[snively]

Also remember that Devin Harris signed his extension before this "breakout" season, so it might be better to judge him off the prior year numbers in which he averaged about 15 pts, 6 assists and 3 boards as the 3rd or 4th option in Dallas for most of the year.

Rondo has always been the 4th option here...I guess that is playing with three hall of famers, but those numbers of Harris' match up pretty well with Rondo's, too...plus, you're supposed to pay a player on potential, not what they have already done for you...I just hope we don't pay Rondo too much on potential that may never be tapped...

but again, the "what option is he" angle is deceptive in regards to a pure PG. his job is to get the ball to the scorers in an effective manner....something Rondo is exceedingly good at.

True to some extent, but Doc has criticized Rondo for not being more of a scorer.

No, I agree. Rondo needs to develop his scoring abilities more, but it's not his game and really shouldn't be...not on this team anyway.

BTW, the point I was making was that Rondo probably should get more than Devin if Devin's contract was fair.

[BballTim]

A lot of people on this blog talk about Rondo being a top-five point guard, and a top-two or -three "young" point guard.  Often, the names you'll see listed above Rondo are as follows:

1. CP3
2. Deron
3. Rose (maybe)
4. Parker (maybe)
5. Rondo

I'm curious as to why Devis Harris is constantly left out of these discussions.  Looking at their numbers, Harris seems to compare favorably to Rondo:

Rondo: 11.9 pts, 5.2 reb, 8.2 ast, 2.6 to, 1.9 spg, .514 eFG% (.375 on jumpers), .543 TS%

Harris: 21.3 pts, 3.3 reb, 6.9 ast, 3.1 to, 1.7 spg, .469 eFG% (.419 on jumpers), .563 TS%

Harris scores 10 more points, and only averages 1.3 less assists.  The two players are almost at the same efficiency, and from observation (rather than statistics) both players play similar defense.  Why, then, is he overlooked in the discussion of good young point guards?

Harris' contract may be an interesting one for the Celtics to look at when determining Rondo's value.  Harris made $7.8 million in his first year, and his total contract is 5 years, $43 million.  I think that would be a very reasonable deal for both sides.

  Harris has been on an all-defensive team? Missed that.

  Doing another comparison:

  Rondo: 11.9 pts, 5.2 reb, 8.2 ast, 2.6 to, 1.9 spg, .514 eFG% (.375 on jumpers), .543 TS%

  Harris: 10.2 pts, 2.5 reb, 3.7 ast, 1.8 to, 1.2 spg, .504 eFG% (.396 on jumpers), .574 TS%

  They were both in their 3rd years, but Harris was a year older. I'm comparing Rondo not with Harris now, but Harris the year before he signed his contract. If he signed a contract today it would clearly be for more money. Not only are his numbers worse than Rondo, but he also doesn't have anything like an nba title or (again) all-defense 2nd team on his resume.

  Also note that the Mavs traded Harris (along with 2 1st round draft picks) for another pg. Would you be happy if the Celts traded Rondo and 2 1st rounders for Steve Nash? Well, you might, but I'd be peeved. This was after they signed him to the deal, mind you, not because they were worried about his contract demands but because they thought they needed a different pg to be successful.

  Two years from now Rondo will have Harris' years of experience. In three years he'll be the age Harris is now. I'm fairly confident that he'll be a better player in 2-3 years than Harris is now, as he's arguably better now. That's maybe why Harris isn't (necessarily) in the best young pg debate. And you can't tell me that anyone was talking about whether Harris was a top 5 pg when he signed that deal. I'd say that Rondo's value now is much higher than Devin's was when he signed the contract.

[winsomme]

A lot of people on this blog talk about Rondo being a top-five point guard, and a top-two or -three "young" point guard.  Often, the names you'll see listed above Rondo are as follows:

1. CP3
2. Deron
3. Rose (maybe)
4. Parker (maybe)
5. Rondo

I'm curious as to why Devis Harris is constantly left out of these discussions.  Looking at their numbers, Harris seems to compare favorably to Rondo:

Rondo: 11.9 pts, 5.2 reb, 8.2 ast, 2.6 to, 1.9 spg, .514 eFG% (.375 on jumpers), .543 TS%

Harris: 21.3 pts, 3.3 reb, 6.9 ast, 3.1 to, 1.7 spg, .469 eFG% (.419 on jumpers), .563 TS%

Harris scores 10 more points, and only averages 1.3 less assists.  The two players are almost at the same efficiency, and from observation (rather than statistics) both players play similar defense.  Why, then, is he overlooked in the discussion of good young point guards?

Harris' contract may be an interesting one for the Celtics to look at when determining Rondo's value.  Harris made $7.8 million in his first year, and his total contract is 5 years, $43 million.  I think that would be a very reasonable deal for both sides.

  Harris has been on an all-defensive team? Missed that.

  Doing another comparison:

  Rondo: 11.9 pts, 5.2 reb, 8.2 ast, 2.6 to, 1.9 spg, .514 eFG% (.375 on jumpers), .543 TS%

  Harris: 10.2 pts, 2.5 reb, 3.7 ast, 1.8 to, 1.2 spg, .504 eFG% (.396 on jumpers), .574 TS%

  They were both in their 3rd years, but Harris was a year older. I'm comparing Rondo not with Harris now, but Harris the year before he signed his contract. If he signed a contract today it would clearly be for more money. Not only are his numbers worse than Rondo, but he also doesn't have anything like an nba title or (again) all-defense 2nd team on his resume.

  Also note that the Mavs traded Harris (along with 2 1st round draft picks) for another pg. Would you be happy if the Celts traded Rondo and 2 1st rounders for Steve Nash? Well, you might, but I'd be peeved. This was after they signed him to the deal, mind you, not because they were worried about his contract demands but because they thought they needed a different pg to be successful.

  Two years from now Rondo will have Harris' years of experience. In three years he'll be the age Harris is now. I'm fairly confident that he'll be a better player in 2-3 years than Harris is now, as he's arguably better now. That's maybe why Harris isn't (necessarily) in the best young pg debate. And you can't tell me that anyone was talking about whether Harris was a top 5 pg when he signed that deal. I'd say that Rondo's value now is much higher than Devin's was when he signed the contract.

all good points. TP.

for me, i keep coming back to the question of whether or not I would trade Rondo for Harris straight up, right now. and I just wouldn't do it.

[BballTim]

Rondo's scoring average would be higher on a young team with few stars.  He wouldn't shoot better, but he'd score more.

Yeah, he'd probably score more, but he'd have fewer assists, and his FG% would be lower, as teams would focus on stopping him.  Right now, teams don't game plan to stop Rondo.  In fact, as Doc pointed out, they specifically double off of him.  Stuff like that doesn't happen to Harris.  Give Harris the space that Rondo has, and he'd score 25 ppg.

They're both good young players.  I think if their roles were swapped, Harris would be universally loved by all Celtics fans, and Rondo would be seen as a step below.  I know that if I could have either player for one play to win a championship, I'd probably choose Harris.

  The only thing Harris does better than Rondo is score and get to the line. Also, take Harris a few years ago and stick him on a team with Ray and Paul and KG. You don't think teams would have doubled off of him? As for Rondo being seen as a step below by other teams, I disagree. Anyone remember when the Ray and Rondo for Amare rumors first hit? Someone posted a link to a Suns fans board and many of them were thrilled that they could get a player like Rondo for Amare. Some of them thought that the Celts would never make a trade like that.

[winsomme]

Rondo's scoring average would be higher on a young team with few stars.  He wouldn't shoot better, but he'd score more.

Yeah, he'd probably score more, but he'd have fewer assists, and his FG% would be lower, as teams would focus on stopping him.  Right now, teams don't game plan to stop Rondo.  In fact, as Doc pointed out, they specifically double off of him.  Stuff like that doesn't happen to Harris.  Give Harris the space that Rondo has, and he'd score 25 ppg.

They're both good young players.  I think if their roles were swapped, Harris would be universally loved by all Celtics fans, and Rondo would be seen as a step below.  I know that if I could have either player for one play to win a championship, I'd probably choose Harris.

  The only thing Harris does better than Rondo is score and get to the line. Also, take Harris a few years ago and stick him on a team with Ray and Paul and KG. You don't think teams would have doubled off of him? As for Rondo being seen as a step below by other teams, I disagree. Anyone remember when the Ray and Rondo for Amare rumors first hit? Someone posted a link to a Suns fans board and many of them were thrilled that they could get a player like Rondo for Amare. Some of them thought that the Celts would never make a trade like that.

the one thing I will really give the Rondo critics is the FT shooting. even more so that the jump shooting.

the best thing Rondo could do for next season is to get his FT shooting in the 75% range. He's so crafty, he could get to the line a ton.