Author Topic: Indefensible Decisions By Brad Stevens  (Read 15865 times)

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Re: Indefensible Decisions By Brad Stevens
« Reply #75 on: October 31, 2022, 10:27:41 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Yeah, OK, but this Wood possible deal is about the only realistic TPE scenario that I have seen where we could have used the TPE.  For example, for a period, there was outrage over why we didn't use the TPE on Nerlens Noel or Kelly Olynyk.  In all these cases, you have to give up something or what you get back for the TPE isn't of any value to help the team. 

The Pistons were paid by the Knicks to take on Noel.


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Re: Indefensible Decisions By Brad Stevens
« Reply #76 on: October 31, 2022, 10:40:58 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Yeah, OK, but this Wood possible deal is about the only realistic TPE scenario that I have seen where we could have used the TPE.  For example, for a period, there was outrage over why we didn't use the TPE on Nerlens Noel or Kelly Olynyk.  In all these cases, you have to give up something or what you get back for the TPE isn't of any value to help the team. 

The Pistons were paid by the Knicks to take on Noel.
And that happens every off season for teams looking to shed salary.  Those deals are very common. 

And for the record, the trade was Noel, Burks, 2023 2nd (Det), 2026 (NY or MIN), cash for the rights to Radicevic and 2025 2nd (protected top 55)

Unless the Knicks really really really wanted Radicevic, I'm sure the same deal was basically on the table for the C's (and the C's 2nd rounder might have actually conveyed in a couple of years, which seems very unlikely for Detroit). 

Burks is hurt to start the year, but he might actually be a useful 3 point shooter on the bench.
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Re: Indefensible Decisions By Brad Stevens
« Reply #77 on: October 31, 2022, 11:02:11 AM »

Online ozgod

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Wood would have been a nice player to add.  The need was not quite the same before Gallinari got hurt and RWill had his follow up surgery.  At that point we expected to start the season with Horford, RWill, Gallinari, and Grant. 

As to the trade for Wood, I don't know if we could have beat the offer or not (without having an immediate pick to offer).  I don't see the issue being the salary, I see the issue being what you have to give up (picks, players) to get a 1 year rental of what at the time projected to be a bench player.

I can understand the debate, but to call this non-trade indefensible seems hyperbolic, especially when no one knows what we may have offered or considered.  Now with the Gallinari injury and the RWill follow up surgery, it would definitely be nice to have Wood.  But you can't really judge not doing a deal then based on what is known now.

As mentioned previously, Wood was acquired before Gallinari was signed.  He was in fact traded before Gallinari was even bought out, making him a free agent.

And, I'm not sure anybody called not doing this particular trade indefensible.  However, not using the TPE in some capacity -- if there was no budget in place -- was indefensible.

This is really what the whole argument on using or not using the TPE hinges on. If there was truly no budget, then Brad shouldn't care that he spends $60m on a $15m player, or even $40m on a $10m player. If there's no budget then so what if he doesn't get value for money or if the value per dollar becomes really incremental, just as long as the overall effectiveness of the team increases.

But I think we all know that "no budget" doesn't mean no budget  :police: It sounds good in public, but it's like your boss telling you "you can spend whatever you need to spend to be successful, but do it wisely". I just try to put myself in Brad's shoes and think, if Wyc had said "there's no budget, spend what you need to spend", how would I interpret it? Personally, I don't think there's ever no constraint on spending - I don't know Wyc from a bar of soap, but I think there's an expectation that if we are going to go into the luxury tax that the funds will be spent wisely. Possibly Brad couldn't justify spending the amount on who was available? Speculating here but people's careers and job security also factor into it I'm sure - Brad is only 2 years into his job, given how spendthrift Danny was, he probably won't want to blow wads of Wyc's money on insurance players. I think he preferred to wait till there's an actual need so that he can justify the expense. Even now using those remaining TPEs will end up costing around $20m - $25m each.

Obviously in hindsight it would have been very justifiable to use it to get a first-off-the-bench type guy and have that player (e.g. Wood), Timelord and Al all battle it out for minutes.
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Re: Indefensible Decisions By Brad Stevens
« Reply #78 on: October 31, 2022, 11:33:01 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Yeah, OK, but this Wood possible deal is about the only realistic TPE scenario that I have seen where we could have used the TPE.  For example, for a period, there was outrage over why we didn't use the TPE on Nerlens Noel or Kelly Olynyk.  In all these cases, you have to give up something or what you get back for the TPE isn't of any value to help the team. 

The Pistons were paid by the Knicks to take on Noel.
And that happens every off season for teams looking to shed salary.  Those deals are very common. 

And for the record, the trade was Noel, Burks, 2023 2nd (Det), 2026 (NY or MIN), cash for the rights to Radicevic and 2025 2nd (protected top 55)

Unless the Knicks really really really wanted Radicevic, I'm sure the same deal was basically on the table for the C's (and the C's 2nd rounder might have actually conveyed in a couple of years, which seems very unlikely for Detroit). 

Burks is hurt to start the year, but he might actually be a useful 3 point shooter on the bench.

So the Knicks had to give up 2 second round picks and cash to dump Noel and Burks on Detroit.  I don't think Noel is any better than Vonleh or Griffin.  Maybe not better than Kornet.  Sorry, giving up a second round pick and cash to get Noel would be indefensible.  Burks, I don't know.  He is more guard than forward and we have enough guards.  I see some potential usefulness but he is certainly not the real answer to any problem.  I am far from outraged over not getting Burks.

Re: Indefensible Decisions By Brad Stevens
« Reply #79 on: October 31, 2022, 11:36:24 AM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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I think this entire point is an example of nitpicking. I believe the answer is patience.

Re: Indefensible Decisions By Brad Stevens
« Reply #80 on: October 31, 2022, 11:44:05 AM »

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I think this entire point is an example of nitpicking. I believe the answer is patience.

Eh, it's not crazy to call letting the TPE expire punting on a valuable asset. I wanted Brad to go get a veteran big for depth using some mix of seconds and/or Pritchard, I just don't want to be tying up future firsts to bring in backups on expiring deals.

Similarly, I don't really want Boston targeting Poeltl because of what he'd cost in picks and the likelihood that he's a rental, but if you can get Zach Collins for Pritchard and two of Jackson/Kornet/Vonleh for salary-matching I think it's worth looking at.

Re: Indefensible Decisions By Brad Stevens
« Reply #81 on: October 31, 2022, 11:48:46 AM »

Online Roy H.

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I think this entire point is an example of nitpicking. I believe the answer is patience.

Picking at nits is a good thing.  I'm not sure how this saying came into practice, but lice are gross.

But, the issue of the TPE, or not having a reliable center beyond Horford (our starting PF), aren't really "nits".


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Re: Indefensible Decisions By Brad Stevens
« Reply #82 on: October 31, 2022, 11:50:11 AM »

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I don't think Noel is any better than Vonleh or Griffin.  Maybe not better than Kornet.

Does anybody else hold this opinion, I wonder?  In terms of a team that relies upon a defensive backbone, I think Noel would easily be the best fit of the four.


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Re: Indefensible Decisions By Brad Stevens
« Reply #83 on: October 31, 2022, 11:57:09 AM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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I think this entire point is an example of nitpicking. I believe the answer is patience.

Picking at nits is a good thing.  I'm not sure how this saying came into practice, but lice are gross.

But, the issue of the TPE, or not having a reliable center beyond Horford (our starting PF), aren't really "nits".

The answer is Rob Williams when he returns. Brad has more medical info than we do.

Some might disagree that Williams is the guy. I think he’s been good when healthy. I don’t assume that he will be unreliable in the playoffs. I would bet Brad agrees (otherwise why keep him in the team?).

Re: Indefensible Decisions By Brad Stevens
« Reply #84 on: October 31, 2022, 12:00:59 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I don't think Noel is any better than Vonleh or Griffin.  Maybe not better than Kornet.

Does anybody else hold this opinion, I wonder?  In terms of a team that relies upon a defensive backbone, I think Noel would easily be the best fit of the four.
It's a terrible take. Nerlens averages like 1.5 blocks and 1.4 steals in just over 22 minutes a game for his career. He is a top notch defensive center, one of the best defensively oriented bench centers in the league. And he's a good rebounder as well, especially defensively.

He isn't a good passer or shooter but has become okay as a free throw shooter and will score somewhat efficiently in the post. He sets good screens. He will bring defensively most of what Timelord brings.

Re: Indefensible Decisions By Brad Stevens
« Reply #85 on: October 31, 2022, 12:10:44 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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I don't think Noel is any better than Vonleh or Griffin.  Maybe not better than Kornet.

Does anybody else hold this opinion, I wonder?  In terms of a team that relies upon a defensive backbone, I think Noel would easily be the best fit of the four.
It's a terrible take. Nerlens averages like 1.5 blocks and 1.4 steals in just over 22 minutes a game for his career. He is a top notch defensive center, one of the best defensively oriented bench centers in the league. And he's a good rebounder as well, especially defensively.

He isn't a good passer or shooter but has become okay as a free throw shooter and will score somewhat efficiently in the post. He sets good screens. He will bring defensively most of what Timelord brings.

I haven’t watched Noel, so I can’t bring first-hand observation to this conversation. But Rob was all-NBA defense last year, which he definitely earned, and I think everybody agrees that if he could stay healthy his contract would be a real bargain. I don’t hear anything like that for Noel, so I start out very skeptical of that language in bold.

Re: Indefensible Decisions By Brad Stevens
« Reply #86 on: October 31, 2022, 12:18:58 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I don't think Noel is any better than Vonleh or Griffin.  Maybe not better than Kornet.

Does anybody else hold this opinion, I wonder?  In terms of a team that relies upon a defensive backbone, I think Noel would easily be the best fit of the four.
It's a terrible take. Nerlens averages like 1.5 blocks and 1.4 steals in just over 22 minutes a game for his career. He is a top notch defensive center, one of the best defensively oriented bench centers in the league. And he's a good rebounder as well, especially defensively.

He isn't a good passer or shooter but has become okay as a free throw shooter and will score somewhat efficiently in the post. He sets good screens. He will bring defensively most of what Timelord brings.

I haven’t watched Noel, so I can’t bring first-hand observation to this conversation. But Rob was all-NBA defense last year, which he definitely earned, and I think everybody agrees that if he could stay healthy his contract would be a real bargain. I don’t hear anything like that for Noel, so I start out very skeptical of that language in bold.
Timelord is a smarter basketball player and better rebounder than Nerlens. He closes out better and switches better. But Nerlens has extremely active and accurate hands defensively and is almost as good of a shot blocker.

Before last year where Timelord was grouped with a bunch of elite defenders, no one was talking him up as an All-Defense type guy either. Put Nerlens with his ability in a lineup with Horford, Smart, Tatum and Brown and he might look like an All-Defense type as well.

Nerlens isn't on Williams' level as a defender, but he's not all that far off.

Re: Indefensible Decisions By Brad Stevens
« Reply #87 on: October 31, 2022, 12:22:29 PM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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The narrative has swung on RW pretty quickly. He was always a good shot blocker, but was criticized for his defense before last year. Now it appears that he’s a major cog on this team.

Re: Indefensible Decisions By Brad Stevens
« Reply #88 on: October 31, 2022, 12:27:14 PM »

Online Roy H.

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The narrative has swung on RW pretty quickly. He was always a good shot blocker, but was criticized for his defense before last year. Now it appears that he’s a major cog on this team.

Isn’t he? 


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Re: Indefensible Decisions By Brad Stevens
« Reply #89 on: October 31, 2022, 12:28:14 PM »

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Relying on TL to fix the woes on defense is not a gamble I want to take. I'm not sold his knees will hold up over the season.

Still don't believe in Joe.