Author Topic: NFL Draft...  (Read 17619 times)

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Re: NFL Draft...
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2008, 05:06:17 PM »

Offline ma11l

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In the time it took you to complain about ESPN, you could have watched all those baseball and NBA playoff highlights without even leaving the comfort of your browser.


Yeah but what's the fun of not complaining?  If I spent all the time I spent complaining about things on this site on other things I would probably be able to do a lot of other things.  However I enjoy writing rants and reading the rants of others, they're very entertaining.
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Re: NFL Draft...
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2008, 05:17:45 PM »

Offline RondoIsAPimp

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Mel Kiper said it was a good pick so I'm happy.  He's been around forever and using him is better than learning the hundreds of players that are going to be picked.
Mel Kiper had WR Mike Williams the top rated player in the 2005 draft. I find Mel Kiper highly overrated.

Re: NFL Draft...
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2008, 05:22:52 PM »

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Excellent pick with Mayo and once again the Pats prove that there isn't a mock draft expert alive that knows what the Pats think. All anyone heard was the need for a corner. Sorry, that is not a value money position for the Pats and there was no way and is no way the Pats will ever draft a corner that high. They obviously had Mayo targeted and were only trying to trade as far down as possible to where they could still draft him and make him more financially affordable. My guess is that they were willing to trade down as low as 13 or 14 because they think he would have still been there.

Anyone who watched the college game this year knows just howvaluable this kid was to that Vols defense. He was the key to everything they did. He was a double digit tackle machine and is made in the same mold both physically and mentally as a Teddy Buschi, maybe even more physically gifted. He has an unteachable nose for the ball and a great ability to read offenses. He will be huge for this team for years.

And as always, all indications are that he is a leader and exemplary human being.

you know something that even Bill doesnt know.  Thats pretty amazing.  Last I checked, he said they would take a cb that early, if the right on was there (a champ Baily type).  There wasnt. 

I am so sick of people making absolute statements about what the pats will or wont do.  Prior to this draft, everyone talked about how they dont take lb's early.  well they did here.  Prior to drafting ben watson, everyone said they wouldnt use a high pick on a TE.  Prior to drafting Mankins we heard they wouldnt use high picks on O-Line.  Prior to drafting Meriweather we heard they wouldnt go after a safety in the first round.  It issimply ignorant to make absolute statements about positions they will or want draft at based on past drafts.  the simple fact is that they draft based on skill...if a player is high on their board it doesnt matter what position he plays.

As for obviously targetting Mayo...how do you know they werent targeting Rivers and assumed he would be there at 10? (I am happy it was mayo over rivers, but again, a huge assumption that is grounded in very little evidence)

Re: NFL Draft...
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2008, 05:23:58 PM »

Offline RondoIsAPimp

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Ok, skins are on the clock. I would love us to trade out of this spot and pick up a few extra picks. If we keep the pick, I think Devin Thomas is too goo to pass up.

Re: NFL Draft...
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2008, 07:11:27 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Excellent pick with Mayo and once again the Pats prove that there isn't a mock draft expert alive that knows what the Pats think. All anyone heard was the need for a corner. Sorry, that is not a value money position for the Pats and there was no way and is no way the Pats will ever draft a corner that high. They obviously had Mayo targeted and were only trying to trade as far down as possible to where they could still draft him and make him more financially affordable. My guess is that they were willing to trade down as low as 13 or 14 because they think he would have still been there.

Anyone who watched the college game this year knows just howvaluable this kid was to that Vols defense. He was the key to everything they did. He was a double digit tackle machine and is made in the same mold both physically and mentally as a Teddy Buschi, maybe even more physically gifted. He has an unteachable nose for the ball and a great ability to read offenses. He will be huge for this team for years.

And as always, all indications are that he is a leader and exemplary human being.

you know something that even Bill doesnt know.  Thats pretty amazing.  Last I checked, he said they would take a cb that early, if the right on was there (a champ Baily type).  There wasnt. 

I am so sick of people making absolute statements about what the pats will or wont do.  Prior to this draft, everyone talked about how they dont take lb's early.  well they did here.  Prior to drafting ben watson, everyone said they wouldnt use a high pick on a TE.  Prior to drafting Mankins we heard they wouldnt use high picks on O-Line.  Prior to drafting Meriweather we heard they wouldnt go after a safety in the first round.  It issimply ignorant to make absolute statements about positions they will or want draft at based on past drafts.  the simple fact is that they draft based on skill...if a player is high on their board it doesnt matter what position he plays.

As for obviously targetting Mayo...how do you know they werent targeting Rivers and assumed he would be there at 10? (I am happy it was mayo over rivers, but again, a huge assumption that is grounded in very little evidence)
Absolutes.

I find your believing Bill Belichick when he said he would take a corner that high in the draft absolutely hilarious. Since when does Bill offer absolutely any inside information of the real thinking and workings of the New England Patriots? You must absolutely believe that Tom Brady's shoulder has been hurting him enough to be listed as questionable on the injured list for the last 5 years.

If the Pats were ever going to take a corner with a pick as high as 7 and give him a guaranteed $20 million with a contract reaching as high as $50-$60 million, they would have paid Asante Samuel. Now that's an absolute statement, absolutely logical.

How do I know they targeted Mayo, simple, there wasn't a whisper around anywhere that had the Pats even thinking of looking at this kid. That's how. You said it yourself, the Pats do what no one expects them to do. And if the Pats thought so highly of Rivers they would have taken him at 7. Lots of very knowledgable NFL people had New England taking Rivers and being very high on him. He was there. Thinking they gambled trading their pick down to save a few bucks landing a guy that everyone thought they wanted is absolutely crazy. Thinking that they would trade down to save money on drafting a guy that no one thought they wanted hence thinking he was sure to be there is not crazy.

As to your points about the other picks you mentioned no one I know of ever said that the Pats wouldn't take a TE with the 21st pick. It's not like the 21st pick is an elite pick. Also your statement regarding the Mankins pick is absolutely absurd considering that Belichick has a much publicized stance that linemen are the most important and valuable players there are. His first overall pick as the Pats head was an offensive lineman, remember Adrian Klemm. And remember that he did choose an offensive lineman two years in a row in the first round(technically TEs play on the offensive line) and that Matt Light was a 2nd rounder as well.

Your point about making absolute statements being ignorant "about positions they will or want draft at based on past drafts" shows a slight degree of ignorance itself. Mel Kiper, ESPN, Sports Illustrated and others have made billions of dollars making absolute statements about teams picks for years and years and they based those statements about those teams on past draft history and tendencies.

Lastly, yes the Pats rate the players. But they do not do it the way you think and do not draft the absolute highest rated player on the board. I will have to do an extensive search to find the article but there was an article with a Pats insider(not Belichick) that detailed the Pats rating system. The system was more along the lines of positional value and talent versus just best available player. Say the best available player at 7 was a QB or a WR, do you really believe the Pats take that player? Now let's say that player is a player that plays a postion that the Pats don't put a high financial value on, say RB or WR. Do you think the Pats are going to draft a player that will throw an inbalance into the financial situation of the salary structure for a position that the players know the front office doesn't pay for? Suddenly guys that play important positions, like QB, left OT, and DE that have been making less than market value for years are going to walk into Bill's office demanding trades or very large raises.

So before making your own absolute statements about ignorant absolute statements think about the bigger picture involved.

Re: NFL Draft...
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2008, 07:42:11 PM »

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Absolutes.

I find your believing Bill Belichick when he said he would take a corner that high in the draft absolutely hilarious. Since when does Bill offer absolutely any inside information of the real thinking and workings of the New England Patriots? You must absolutely believe that Tom Brady's shoulder has been hurting him enough to be listed as questionable on the injured list for the last 5 years.

If the Pats were ever going to take a corner with a pick as high as 7 and give him a guaranteed $20 million with a contract reaching as high as $50-$60 million, they would have paid Asante Samuel. Now that's an absolute statement, absolutely logical.

How do I know they targeted Mayo, simple, there wasn't a whisper around anywhere that had the Pats even thinking of looking at this kid. That's how. You said it yourself, the Pats do what no one expects them to do. And if the Pats thought so highly of Rivers they would have taken him at 7. Lots of very knowledgable NFL people had New England taking Rivers and being very high on him. He was there. Thinking they gambled trading their pick down to save a few bucks landing a guy that everyone thought they wanted is absolutely crazy. Thinking that they would trade down to save money on drafting a guy that no one thought they wanted hence thinking he was sure to be there is not crazy.

As to your points about the other picks you mentioned no one I know of ever said that the Pats wouldn't take a TE with the 21st pick. It's not like the 21st pick is an elite pick. Also your statement regarding the Mankins pick is absolutely absurd considering that Belichick has a much publicized stance that linemen are the most important and valuable players there are. His first overall pick as the Pats head was an offensive lineman, remember Adrian Klemm. And remember that he did choose an offensive lineman two years in a row in the first round(technically TEs play on the offensive line) and that Matt Light was a 2nd rounder as well.

Your point about making absolute statements being ignorant "about positions they will or want draft at based on past drafts" shows a slight degree of ignorance itself. Mel Kiper, ESPN, Sports Illustrated and others have made billions of dollars making absolute statements about teams picks for years and years and they based those statements about those teams on past draft history and tendencies.

Lastly, yes the Pats rate the players. But they do not do it the way you think and do not draft the absolute highest rated player on the board. I will have to do an extensive search to find the article but there was an article with a Pats insider(not Belichick) that detailed the Pats rating system. The system was more along the lines of positional value and talent versus just best available player. Say the best available player at 7 was a QB or a WR, do you really believe the Pats take that player? Now let's say that player is a player that plays a postion that the Pats don't put a high financial value on, say RB or WR. Do you think the Pats are going to draft a player that will throw an inbalance into the financial situation of the salary structure for a position that the players know the front office doesn't pay for? Suddenly guys that play important positions, like QB, left OT, and DE that have been making less than market value for years are going to walk into Bill's office demanding trades or very large raises.

So before making your own absolute statements about ignorant absolute statements think about the bigger picture involved.

I never stated he would absolutely draft a cb.  I stated that he hasnt stated he would absolutely not.  do you see the difference?  Bill has never taken a QB in the first round with the patriots.  does that mean it is fair to say that he would never take a qb in the first round.  no.  but that is what you were doing with the cb. 

In this draft it wasnt worth taking a cb and paying them the money.  but in case you are wondering, amobi akoye last years number 10 got an 18 million dollar deal with about 13 million guaranteed.  Thats not a whole lot if you think you can grab a quality player. 

You said no whisper, he was one of 20 or so people that they brought into foxborro for a sit down meeting.  now, obviously some of that is gamesmanship to try and throw people off but to suggest no whispers is wrong.

I assume you saying that they wouldnt trade down if there was a possibility he could be taken must mean that you think they are infallible.  they must never make a mistake.  Additionally, I never said they definetly wanted Rivers.  I said it was a possibility.  as for a few bucks being saved, last years number 10 (adrian peterson) signed a deal worth 40 million with close to 20 million guaranteed.  last years number 10 (Amobi okoye) signed a deal worth less then 20 million and about 13 million guaranteed.  I would say that is a little more then a couple of bucks.

you are wrong about the o line...if you ignore everything that has been said about the pats o line in the last two years or so, the running joke was that they could grab a guy off of the street and plug him in and he would be solid.  he does build his teams from the dline out.  but until recently, there has not been the same attention to building through the oline.  at the time of the mankins draft pick, that was a major shock (to all your 'nfl experts'). Adrian Klemm was not a first rounder.  Light was not a first rounder.  Mankins is the ONLY first rounder.  Same goes for the Watson pick.  Again, the 'experts' consistently intimated that it would be crazy to consider a TE for the pats in the first round.

Whether Kiper makes millions or not doesnt change the fact that they are largely wrong on their predictions.  Sure, if a team says we are going to draft x player they will get it right. but every draft it is laughable to see how wrong they are with these 'predictions'.  that being said, it really doesnt change the fact that making an absolute statement that x coach would never draft a specific position at a specific point in the round is a largely moronic statement (with the exception of kickers and punters, although the Raiders and Janikowski comes to mind)

Lastly, of course I dont think they draft best player available no matter situation.  but they probably more so then other teams are known for drafting pba rather then 'reaching' to just acquire someone at a position they are projected to need.

Re: NFL Draft...
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2008, 07:47:17 PM »

Offline yall hate

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surprise regarding mankins:
http://nwe.scout.com/2/374655.html
Quote
It was certainly a surprise to hear Paul Tagliabue call offensive lineman Logan Mankins as the Patriots first round pick with 32nd selection, particularly since he is projected to play guard in the NFL despite playing exclusively at tackle during his Fresno State career and because most predicted a cornerback or linebacker to New England at that spot.

Under Belichick, the Patriots have never drafted a guard at all, never mind in the first round, which means they don't likely project Mankins or third round pick Nick Kaczur to play guard even if one or both start their careers there before moving out to tackle at some point.



Mike Reiss, one of the best when discussing the pats:

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extras/askreiss/04_01_08/?page=2
Quote
As I wrote last week, nothing would surprise me. In 2005, I said "we don't know who the Patriots will select, but we can presume based on their history that it won't be a guard." Then they selected Logan Mankins. I learned my lesson after that one.



and actually, drafting Mayo seems to prove my point that you cant predict based on their history.  since 2000 the earliest they have drafted a lb is 5th round (Ryan Claridge, who never played for the team).  the only lb on their team that they drafted is Tedy Bruschi.  This just goes to show that it is a silly way to attempt to decide who will be drafted by looking at what they have done in similar situations.
http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2008/04/23/difficult_position_to_be_in/
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 08:01:40 PM by yall hate »

Re: NFL Draft...
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2008, 08:21:07 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Shows how bad a link that is that they called Mankins a project (3rd year Pro Bowler, All-Rookie Team).

Also this fabulous link once again said most once again wrongly predicted a CB in the first for the Pats.

And you keep mentioning how everyone said that the Pats would never take a TE in the first round but then took Watson. Did you forget about Daniel Graham? He was selected in the first round the year before Watson. So obviously they would take a TE, which once again is an offensive line position that was drafted twice before Mankins.

I mentioned Klemm and Light to show that Belichick holds offensive linemen in high regard, I never once said they were first rounders or even hinted at such. I guess I need to make my point more clear for some.

As for the running joke regarding the o=line obviously those jokes are made by moronic commentators or people in general. Light is a 2nd rounder, Koppen is a 3rd rounder, Mankins is a 1st rounder, Kazcur is a 3rd rounder, Stephan Neal was an NCAA wrestling champion. These are just not guys off the street. They are world class athletes and with the exception of Neal all first day draft picks. All very valuable and relatively high picks.

As for telling me that the difference between paying a 7 pick and a 10 pick is a lot of money, did you read my original post? I was the one that mentioned trading down to save money! I know how much money it is!! And considering you know how much money it costs every year(because salaries at that position go up every year) how is it moronic and idiotic to say the Pats would never select a CB that high? Use your head!

If a 7 pick costs $40 million with $20 million guaranteed why would they draft a corner there when they could just as easily given that money to one of the top CBs in the league and retained him? I'll tell you why. Because the Patriots do not place that high a value moneywise on the corner position. Since they wouldn't give one of the best CBs in the league around the same money they would have to give any player they drafted inside the top 7, it's a pretty certain and logical statement to make that the Pats won't draft a corner that high ever.

Re: NFL Draft...
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2008, 08:37:42 PM »

Offline yall hate

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Shows how bad a link that is that they called Mankins a project (3rd year Pro Bowler, All-Rookie Team).

Also this fabulous link once again said most once again wrongly predicted a CB in the first for the Pats.

And you keep mentioning how everyone said that the Pats would never take a TE in the first round but then took Watson. Did you forget about Daniel Graham? He was selected in the first round the year before Watson. So obviously they would take a TE, which once again is an offensive line position that was drafted twice before Mankins.

I mentioned Klemm and Light to show that Belichick holds offensive linemen in high regard, I never once said they were first rounders or even hinted at such. I guess I need to make my point more clear for some.

As for the running joke regarding the o=line obviously those jokes are made by moronic commentators or people in general. Light is a 2nd rounder, Koppen is a 3rd rounder, Mankins is a 1st rounder, Kazcur is a 3rd rounder, Stephan Neal was an NCAA wrestling champion. These are just not guys off the street. They are world class athletes and with the exception of Neal all first day draft picks. All very valuable and relatively high picks.

As for telling me that the difference between paying a 7 pick and a 10 pick is a lot of money, did you read my original post? I was the one that mentioned trading down to save money! I know how much money it is!! And considering you know how much money it costs every year(because salaries at that position go up every year) how is it moronic and idiotic to say the Pats would never select a CB that high? Use your head!

If a 7 pick costs $40 million with $20 million guaranteed why would they draft a corner there when they could just as easily given that money to one of the top CBs in the league and retained him? I'll tell you why. Because the Patriots do not place that high a value moneywise on the corner position. Since they wouldn't give one of the best CBs in the league around the same money they would have to give any player they drafted inside the top 7, it's a pretty certain and logical statement to make that the Pats won't draft a corner that high ever.


This is my last response, because I have no desire to go back and forth.

To mock the site based on their projection of the player is silly.  Mankins was widely looked at as a reach.  When Brady was drafted, none of the experts thought he would be good.  that doesnt mean you look at him now and point to how bad the 'experts' are.  or maybe you do...showing how no one really knows (the real experts, not media included).  Many of the 'experts' predicted a cb to the pats in the first round...take your pick between mike reiss at times, si writers, fox sports writers, or espn writers.

I should have clarified the Watson comment.  It wasnt so much that they wouldnt ever draft a TE, but the thought that, as you mentioned, they would draft a second TE one year later, both in the first round.  That was my fault for not clarifying.  Although that also may show that they dont get boxed in drafting need and instead focus on best player available (for their team), another point i have been attempting to make.

as for your offensive lineman comment, those are recent players...  go back and look at the the olineman on the first couple of superbowl teams.  that iswhere the signing lineman off the street joke came from, and why it is grounded in reality.

My point about the money was that selecting a CB in the 10th spot (which i will say was not actually something i wanted them to do, but somehting that was possible) wouldnt have been such a financial stretch.  had they selected one at 7 it would have been not only a reach but a poor financial decision.  but I would argue that Mayo at 7 would have been a mistake since he would have then been one of the top 5 highest paid players on the team.  thats a problem with the nfl and the draft structure, but that being said, spending 18 million for 6 years on a cb is not that much (again, as i said in the beginning if it was the right cb, read as: good).  So again, I never said they should have drafted a cb at 7, but where they picked, it wouldnt be that absurd to actually draft a cb. 

Re: NFL Draft...
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2008, 09:27:46 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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More clarity, less insults, much better. You're right about Watson in that light, no one expected another TE to be drafted. And for the most part, you are right the Pats do take the best player available.

Where we differ in the best player available statement is that I think they draft the best player available in the positions they consider value for the point in the draft that they are drafting in.

For instance, I think the Pats would take the CB if he was the best player available at 30-32 because paying of that corner at that position meets their fuduciary responsibilities in keeping the salary hierarchy in place. If that same best player available is a corner and they are picking 7-10, I think they would go with the best player available in a position they are willing to spend first round 7-10 money on rather than CB. I also think that they wouldn't draft a C, G, or WR with a top 10 pick because of the money involved at the positions involved. I think the positions they would draft that high and spend that type of cash on are DL, MLB, QB, LT.

This was the reason for my statement. I hope that clarifies things on my part.

TP for the spirit debate.

Re: NFL Draft...
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2008, 09:56:28 PM »

Offline Cman

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Ok, skins are on the clock. I would love us to trade out of this spot and pick up a few extra picks. If we keep the pick, I think Devin Thomas is too goo to pass up.

Nice pick in Devin Thomas.

Can someone explain Terrence Wheatley pick to me?  Especially with those two players from Penn State still on the board (CB King and LB Connor).
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Re: NFL Draft...
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2008, 10:00:48 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Amazing just how far Connor fell. Before the combines Connor was looked at as a pretty high first rounder.

Re: NFL Draft...
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2008, 10:16:59 PM »

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Ok, skins are on the clock. I would love us to trade out of this spot and pick up a few extra picks. If we keep the pick, I think Devin Thomas is too goo to pass up.

Nice pick in Devin Thomas.

Can someone explain Terrence Wheatley pick to me?  Especially with those two players from Penn State still on the board (CB King and LB Connor).

Its always tough...My first reaction to the Wheatley pick was, huh?  I mean, obviously the position was one of need, but there were many many more cb's who were 'ranked' higher by the scouts.  additionally, Wheatley has MAJOR injury issues (3 surgeries on the same wrist, i believe all in college).  He is also smaller (5'10).

But then again, the Pats are better then most at scouting and knowing who fits their system.  when the kid plays he has put up good numbers, he is very fast, good punt returner.

video highlight:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/specials/draft/2008/video/?c=Player&p=215790&s=3031112

only time will tell.

I am excited that they have 3 3rd rounders tomorrow, includingthe 5th or 6th pick in the round.  Should grab a couple more quality players there.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 10:22:46 PM by yall hate »

Re: NFL Draft...
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2008, 10:19:55 PM »

Offline Cman

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3 surgeries on the same wrist, i believe all in college

yeah, the injuries are what make me nervous.  but like you am looking forward to the 3 3rd round picks...

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Re: NFL Draft...
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2008, 10:25:33 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Ok, skins are on the clock. I would love us to trade out of this spot and pick up a few extra picks. If we keep the pick, I think Devin Thomas is too goo to pass up.

Nice pick in Devin Thomas.

Can someone explain Terrence Wheatley pick to me?  Especially with those two players from Penn State still on the board (CB King and LB Connor).

Its always tough...My first reaction to the Wheatley pick was, huh?  I mean, obviously the position was one of need, but there were many many more cb's who were 'ranked' higher by the scouts.  additionally, Wheatley has MAJOR injury issues (3 surgeries on the same wrist, i believe all in college).  He is also smaller (5'10).

But then again, the Pats are better then most at scouting and knowing who fits their system.  when the kid plays he has put up good numbers, he is very fast, good punt returner.

only time will tell.

I am excited that they have 3 3rd rounders tomorrow, includingthe 5th or 6th pick in the round.  Should grab a couple more quality players there.
I agree tomorrow will be good for the Pats. They always seem to pick up excellent 3rd round talent and with three picks that's good.

Honestly know nothing about Wheatley so it is a bit of a headscratcher to hear that they drafted an injury prone kid in the second round. Then again Curtis Martin was considered injury prone in college and will be a 3rd round HOFer someday.

I'm also not crazy about his size. Well, in Bill we Trust.