Author Topic: Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching  (Read 220686 times)

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Online SCeltic34

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Joe & co. have been really good this season.

But that was one of the worst coached quarters I've ever seen.  From sticking with the Al + Kornet combo even after our first timeout even when it was clear that lineup was failing defensively, to failing to call timeout at critical junctures of the game, that was an inexcusable showing from both our players and our coaches.  Adjustments needed to be made.

Offline ozgod

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According to Washburn, not a single one of Wade's three-pointers was contested.

A question for Joe's defenders: when a guy is white hot like that, does it make sense to cover him?  Or is the "no adjustments" strategy the best one?

I think they just executed bad… Poor rotations, not communicating on defense and leaving him open during transition which is where he made most of his threes. I think it was because they had switched off with 10 minutes ago. They were up by 20 they thought they were gonna coast to victory, And that it’s hard to switch back on when the other team applies pressure and you’re thinking about the nice hot shower you’re going to have in 10 mins  :angel:

This result is humiliating and should sting a lot… and if they’re going to take the plaudits for winning by 50 they deserve all the criticism that’s going to come their way over the next couple of days. That a guy like Wade out, scored the entire Celtics lineup, including our starters in the fourth quarter. The only explanation for it is that they had mailed it in before that thinking they were gonna win. Disrespected the game and they got what they deserved.
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Online Roy H.

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According to Washburn, not a single one of Wade's three-pointers was contested.

A question for Joe's defenders: when a guy is white hot like that, does it make sense to cover him?  Or is the "no adjustments" strategy the best one?

I think they just executed bad… Poor rotations, not communicating on defense and leaving him open during transition which is where he made most of his threes. I think it was because they had switched off with 10 minutes ago. They were up by 20 they thought they were gonna coast to victory, And that it’s hard to switch back on when the other team applies pressure and you’re thinking about the nice hot shower you’re going to have in 10 mins  :angel:

This result is humiliating and should sting a lot… and if they’re going to take the plaudits for winning by 50 they deserve all the criticism that’s going to come their way over the next couple of days. That a guy like Wade out, scored the entire Celtics lineup, including our starters in the fourth quarter. The only explanation for it is that they had mailed it in before that thinking they were gonna win. Disrespected the game and they got what they deserved.

While it's obviously true that the Celtics were coasting, does the coach have no obligations?  Isn't his job to identify what is going wrong on the floor, and to help his team respond to it? If not, why is he there at all?


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Online bdm860

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According to Washburn, not a single one of Wade's three-pointers was contested.

A question for Joe's defenders: when a guy is white hot like that, does it make sense to cover him?  Or is the "no adjustments" strategy the best one?

It's not like it was the Warriors "hey let's not guard Brown on the perimeter"

https://streamable.com/zbdmz0

The first 2 definitely look contested to me, though guarded by Kornet on the perimeter.  Obviously the easiest call in retrospect is not have Kornet in the game or guarding Wade (especially when neither Allen or Mobley are on the floor), but at the time Wade had only 3 points and was 1-4, and the team was up 20ish points, so didn't seem like a big deal at the time.

#3 was a drive and dish that left him open.

#4 was pretty unexpected heat check, as he starts to pull up from ~30 ft out to start a possession.  Whoever your favorite coach is, I don't see him adjusting that shot away.

#5.  Jaylen was helping in the paint on a broken down play.  This is the main one I see that's a "hey, let's make sure we cover this guy" candidate.

And the putback to give the Cavs the lead with 19 seconds left, Jrue failed to put a body on him.  I don't see blaming the coach on that one.





And in a rare twist on the no timeout to end the game. According to Weiss, Joe was trying to call a timeout with 4 seconds left (unfortunately the game feed was on the Cavs half of the court, so can't verify, would love to see video evidence of this, don't fully believe it).


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Online Roy H.

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Quote
And in a rare twist on the no timeout to end the game. According to Weiss, Joe was trying to call a timeout with 4 seconds left (unfortunately the game feed was on the Cavs half of the court, so can't verify, would love to see video evidence of this, don't fully believe it).

 Calling a timeout with four seconds left was way too late, even if it had been granted.


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Offline Billz401

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This is just another one of those games where we needed Joe to pull these guys heads out of their collective behinds and he just completely failed to do so like always. I was just starting to change my mind about him this year but maybe its just that the team is so talented that they haven't given him many chances to prove his ineptitude lately..
everyone got so sensitive after 9-11... thanks alot bin laden

Offline Goldstar88

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According to Washburn, not a single one of Wade's three-pointers was contested.

A question for Joe's defenders: when a guy is white hot like that, does it make sense to cover him?  Or is the "no adjustments" strategy the best one?

I think they just executed bad… Poor rotations, not communicating on defense and leaving him open during transition which is where he made most of his threes. I think it was because they had switched off with 10 minutes ago. They were up by 20 they thought they were gonna coast to victory, And that it’s hard to switch back on when the other team applies pressure and you’re thinking about the nice hot shower you’re going to have in 10 mins  :angel:

This result is humiliating and should sting a lot… and if they’re going to take the plaudits for winning by 50 they deserve all the criticism that’s going to come their way over the next couple of days. That a guy like Wade out, scored the entire Celtics lineup, including our starters in the fourth quarter. The only explanation for it is that they had mailed it in before that thinking they were gonna win. Disrespected the game and they got what they deserved.

While it's obviously true that the Celtics were coasting, does the coach have no obligations?  Isn't his job to identify what is going wrong on the floor, and to help his team respond to it? If not, why is he there at all?

Wonder If Warriors fans were asking the same of Steve Kerr after that loss the other night. Guess he didn’t call enough timeouts.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
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At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Online Roy H.

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According to Washburn, not a single one of Wade's three-pointers was contested.

A question for Joe's defenders: when a guy is white hot like that, does it make sense to cover him?  Or is the "no adjustments" strategy the best one?

I think they just executed bad… Poor rotations, not communicating on defense and leaving him open during transition which is where he made most of his threes. I think it was because they had switched off with 10 minutes ago. They were up by 20 they thought they were gonna coast to victory, And that it’s hard to switch back on when the other team applies pressure and you’re thinking about the nice hot shower you’re going to have in 10 mins  :angel:

This result is humiliating and should sting a lot… and if they’re going to take the plaudits for winning by 50 they deserve all the criticism that’s going to come their way over the next couple of days. That a guy like Wade out, scored the entire Celtics lineup, including our starters in the fourth quarter. The only explanation for it is that they had mailed it in before that thinking they were gonna win. Disrespected the game and they got what they deserved.

While it's obviously true that the Celtics were coasting, does the coach have no obligations?  Isn't his job to identify what is going wrong on the floor, and to help his team respond to it? If not, why is he there at all?

Wonder If Warriors fans were asking the same of Steve Kerr after that loss the other night. Guess he didn’t call enough timeouts.

When a team loses by 50, it usually doesn't come down to coaching. That's why Joe really hasn't gotten a lot of criticism when we've been blown out this year, or even after the Lakers game, when the team clearly didn't show up to play. 

That said, yes, Kerr was in fact criticized after their loss to the Celtics. They experimented with sagging off of Jaylen, and it turned out to be a bad call. People acknowledged that, rather than pretending that Kerr was infallible. That's something that Joe's super fans would never consider.


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Online jpotter33

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https://twitter.com/bostonsportsinf/status/1765212056435789837

Quote
Jayson Tatum

This season

Last 5 seconds of the 4th Qtr/OT, to tie or take the lead

FG - (0-7, .000)

Celtics team - (2-20, .100)

The whole end of a close game needs a makeover

At what point does a rational person see that this no longer works and a new strategy is needed?

Online bdm860

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Quote
And in a rare twist on the no timeout to end the game. According to Weiss, Joe was trying to call a timeout with 4 seconds left (unfortunately the game feed was on the Cavs half of the court, so can't verify, would love to see video evidence of this, don't fully believe it).

 Calling a timeout with four seconds left was way too late, even if it had been granted.

I'm generally more in the pro "no timeout camp" than most, so right away I probably have huge philosophical differences with many here.

But one thing I like that I felt Brad Stevens would do sometimes in end of game situations is not call a timeout at first, but if he saw the play turning into something he didn't like, he'd call a timeout to reset things and set up something he did like.  If Joe was trying to call a timeout with 4 seconds left, I'm assuming that's what he was trying to do here.

4 seconds seems like plenty of time to call a timeout and set something up to me.

When would you call a timeout in this situation?  Right away at 19 seconds left?  In that situation Tatum (or whoever you in bound to) is probably still going to hold the ball till there's 7-8 seconds left, then it would take 2-3 seconds to figure out the play isn't working.  Or would you be doing something totally different (maybe go for a much quicker shot, and trust your D to get it done)?

Without video evidence though, I don't fully trust Joe was passionately trying to call a timeout.


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Online jpotter33

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And in a rare twist on the no timeout to end the game. According to Weiss, Joe was trying to call a timeout with 4 seconds left (unfortunately the game feed was on the Cavs half of the court, so can't verify, would love to see video evidence of this, don't fully believe it).

 Calling a timeout with four seconds left was way too late, even if it had been granted.

I'm generally more in the pro "no timeout camp" than most, so right away I probably have huge philosophical differences with many here.

But one thing I like that I felt Brad Stevens would do sometimes in end of game situations is not call a timeout at first, but if he saw the play turning into something he didn't like, he'd call a timeout to reset things and set up something he did like.  If Joe was trying to call a timeout with 4 seconds left, I'm assuming that's what he was trying to do here.

4 seconds seems like plenty of time to call a timeout and set something up to me.

When would you call a timeout in this situation?  Right away at 19 seconds left?  In that situation Tatum (or whoever you in bound to) is probably still going to hold the ball till there's 7-8 seconds left, then it would take 2-3 seconds to figure out the play isn't working.  Or would you be doing something totally different (maybe go for a much quicker shot, and trust your D to get it done)?

Without video evidence though, I don't fully trust Joe was passionately trying to call a timeout.

The idea of the timeout is to get it right - both the set play for a good shot and the timing - the first time so that you wouldn't have to call the timeout again. With how it was, there was essentially no plan other than to get Tatum on Garland and iso a back fadeaway jumper - a poor percentage shot.

It's just bad basketball, particularly with how bad Tatum was in the half AND how bad he's been in these situations all year. KP is leading the league and putting up historical post up efficiency numbers. Why would we not run something for him in a post up situation there, or even some other post up situation that we're putting up great numbers in across the board instead of an awful perimeter iso? Sure, you give them a chance to take out Garland with the timeout, but did keeping Garland in there actually help us? Nope.

THAT is what the timeout is for. Tatum always reverts to the bad, pull-up iso there, and it's rarely successful. Set them up for success and to get a much better shot there.

Offline 86MaxwellSmart

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You could se it happening in slow motion....C's up 22 and then slowed the game down with Tatum being the main culprit.
When it got down to 16, Joe should have called a timeout and reminded them to keep pushing the tempo...but no, Joe also reverted to last year. He iced Jaylen too.
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Offline SparzWizard

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I have a bad feeling this is the game that'll start their next slump, heading into the postseason.

And it doesnt help this slump will come against NBA Finals-caliber teams. You can bet the Nuggets will come in angry and mop the floor out of this team on Wednesday since they lost a hard-fought game against the Suns tonight at their own home. They aren't losing two in a row.


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Online Roy H.

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I have a bad feeling this is the game that'll start their next slump, heading into the postseason.

And it doesnt help this slump will come against NBA Finals-caliber teams. You can bet the Nuggets will come in angry and mop the floor out of this team on Wednesday since they lost a hard-fought game against the Suns tonight at their own home. They aren't losing two in a row.

Why is it less likely that Denver, rather than Boston, drops two in a row?


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Offline ozgod

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According to Washburn, not a single one of Wade's three-pointers was contested.

A question for Joe's defenders: when a guy is white hot like that, does it make sense to cover him?  Or is the "no adjustments" strategy the best one?

I think they just executed bad… Poor rotations, not communicating on defense and leaving him open during transition which is where he made most of his threes. I think it was because they had switched off with 10 minutes ago. They were up by 20 they thought they were gonna coast to victory, And that it’s hard to switch back on when the other team applies pressure and you’re thinking about the nice hot shower you’re going to have in 10 mins  :angel:

This result is humiliating and should sting a lot… and if they’re going to take the plaudits for winning by 50 they deserve all the criticism that’s going to come their way over the next couple of days. That a guy like Wade out, scored the entire Celtics lineup, including our starters in the fourth quarter. The only explanation for it is that they had mailed it in before that thinking they were gonna win. Disrespected the game and they got what they deserved.

While it's obviously true that the Celtics were coasting, does the coach have no obligations?  Isn't his job to identify what is going wrong on the floor, and to help his team respond to it? If not, why is he there at all?

I guess the answer would depend on the goals - is his goal to win every game? If so then yes he should definitely have called timeout and micromanaged the game when it was obvious his team was floundering. If his goal is to win a championship, and he is allowed to lose games if losing games helps further that goal than winning one, then he might be willing to lose a game to teach his team a lesson that would sink in better if they lost than if they pulled it out of the fire.

Not trying to make excuses for the guy, but I got the feeling it would be like a "lose a battle to win the war" type thing. He's talked before about how he doesn't mind losing if losing serves a teaching purpose, or if he sees his team put under pressure so he can see how they respond and so they can learn to think on the fly because there may be times in the playoffs where they might be out of timeouts (never an issue with him I'm sure) and they have to think on the fly and the only way to deal with pressure is to be exposed to it. Team plays really well for 3 quarters, gets arrogant and overconfident, stops doing what had gotten them to a 20 point lead, a 50 point win against the Dubs the game before, a 28 point win vs Dallas the game before that, and an 18 point win against Philly the game before that. Got lazy, ball stopped moving, they started to take bad shots, missed them, gave the Cavs transition opportunities, were slow to get back and Wade killed them in transition shooting pretty much open 3s as his defender was still not getting back or got lost in the rotation. Then they were in a crunch game and had to "switch on" again when they probably were already thinking of the hot shower they were going to have in 10 mins after another 20 point win.

According to Abby they hadn't really been challenged since Feb 11. I got the feeling that Joe wanted them exposed to that cauldron of pressure, he was going to give them every chance to figure it out even if it meant he had to sacrifice a game. Maybe in the back of his mind he even hoped they would lose, because if we squeaked out a win by 1 point via a bad JT end of game play all the faults would be swept under the carpet.

KP was interviewed after the game and he said the constant winning by huge margins had made them overconfident, they had this feeling like no matter how bad they played they could pull it out of the fire anytime, like "we got this", and that this was a good loss to have (I think he meant it was good to lose sometimes, as opposed to this loss being good, because it was atrocious how they lost) because it showed them they have to still do the right things throughout the whole game.

Of course this requires a few of leaps of faith: 1) that Joe is smart enough to play 4D chess; and 2)  the team will actually take this loss to heart and look at themselves in the mirror rather than just brushing it offl and 3) most of the key players on this team, other than KP and Jrue, have been in these situations before, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, and they don't appear to have learned, because just as you feel they've finally figured it out they do something like this. If Joe is trying to use these scenarios to teach them things, isn't he banging his head against a brick wall? Isn't that a failing on his part to keep doing something that's not working? Definition of insanity being that you do the same thing over and over again expecting a different result and all that.

So that's the vibe I got from watching it, and watching his performance on the sideline, and listening to Scal's musings on the broadcast. It sounded like he was going to let them sink or swim, for better or worse. He didn't seem too upset in the post game presser. If it was a Game 7 or even a playoff game I think he would have acted very differently. But that's just a gut feel of mine, who knows what he will do  :angel:

So maybe he won't get fired in the morning, but if we go on a losing streak on this road trip the knives will be out for him when we get back, no matter what our record is  :police:
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