A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

[nickagneta]

One small problem with the "let's stay behind the walls of the castle" is Winterfell is a small castle. You could never fit all 30-50 thousand troops, all the horse and bunches catapults inside of it. Hiding in the castle awaiting a seige could never have worked because of how small Winterfell is.

Almost all the fighting men were living in tents outside the walls of Winterfell. In the books Martin describes Winterfell as tiny compared to other castles in Westeros and that there was a town outside the castle where people lived and went to market.

So, there was going to have to be battle outside of the castle. But the military tactics in the field were ridiculously bad, especially considering they should have controlled the skies over the battlefield.

Just shows how little Martin was involved with these battles that haven't happened in books yet. In the battles that Martin went into detail in in the books, the military strategies were spot on and realistic. The show portrayed these early battles tremendously. Now, these later battles have been a sight to see but are lacking the realism that Martin's knowledge of history and military tactics brought to earlier battles.

I think the books to come will better tell the story Martin was trying to tell. I think storylines will be better tied up and given explanations that the show just couldn't or didn't tell.

[Celtics4ever]

This nails the terrible military tactics on display:

Hollywood almost never gets it right, even movies like Saving Private Ryan, which I enjoyed thoroughly, and is well regarded can't do the true affect of high explosives on the screen.   The blasts are so powerful you can feel them through walls and the like.   Just using this as an example, of course, and it was well regarded in most regards.

Hollywood is all about the story, though, but even that has suffered without Martin.  I am going to finish it out, but the quality diminishes a bit with each episode, that being said, it has for the most part been a good show and I have thoroughly enjoyed it but I liked the books a little better but isn't that almost always the case?

Books use their story plus your imagination and Hollywood has yet to trump that although, they are getting closer and closer.

[tazzmaniac]

And I've seen so many articles about them making Dany a villain turn is basically anti-woman.  Of course the problem with that line of thinking is Dany has always been a villain.  I mean just go back to season 1 where she gleefully watches her husband poor molten gold on her brother and kill him.  She is a ruthless killer that relishes in making her perceived enemies suffer (and I do mean perceived enemies i.e. people like the Tarley's).  She has always ever wanted one thing and has done everything and anything to achieve that goal (even her trip up north was meant as a way of securing a large part of the 7 Kingdoms as allies).  The simple truth is Dany has always been best suited as a conquistador i.e. a ruthless killing machine.  She was never suited to truly lead and certainly not lead in a peaceful kingdom (which is where this is ending up).  She was a strong powerful women which blinded many to the simple fact that she is a villain cut from the same cloth as Cersei.  They are basically one in the same, different backgrounds but similar ambition. 

The show is clearly rushing her full-on Mad Queen persona because they have to, but this path has been apparent from the beginning and isn't just some new development.

That's absolute nonsense.  Dany arguably has done more good than anyone.  Her brother was vile, abusive and weak.  He sold Dany, his sister, to Khal Drogo to get his support to take the Iron Throne.  Even so, Dany still protected him for a while even though he continued to be abusive.  As for his golden crown, she wasn't gleeful although she had every right to be.  She just recognized her brother wasn't a true dragon and wasn't fit for the Iron Throne. 

When Dany took over, she put an end to the Dothraki raping and pillaging.  When Dany "bought" the Unsullied, she immediately freed them and immediately said they could leave if they desired.  Dany freed the slaves in 3 cities even though it detracted from her quest for the Iron Throne.  If she was only focused on the Iron Throne, she would have taken the slaver's deal to get more men and ships.  When she got to Westeros, she made Yara pledge that the Iron Born would give up their pillaging.  Dany clearly went North for Jon and it has cost her dearly.  If she's as bad as you say, she wouldn't have listened to Tyrion's dumb plans.  She would have just attacked King's Landing and burned it to the ground if necessary. 

Is Dany hard and sometimes brutal?  Most definitely but that is what is sometimes required of a ruler, or anyone, in GOT.  Dany killing the Tarley's was brutal but it was also necessary.  What was she supposed to do start a prisoner of war camp?  What was Jon when killed the Nigh****ch traitors including Olly who was just a kid?  Brutal and hard.  What was Ned when he killed the Nigh****ch runaway?  Brutal and hard.  The people who aren't brutal and hard end up dead. 

It amazes me how Cersei is so vilified when she's not close to being the worst villain on the show.

There is a lot here I just disagree with and frankly is wrong but the Tarley's absolutely did not have to die.  There was no reason at all to wipe out an entire house.  You need lords to rule.  Remember she was an invading army with Dothraki barbarians and dragons decimating people.  You don't get undying loyalty when you are the invader (heck even when you aren't you don't wipe out lords - you know like Edmure Tully is still alive because the Lannisters understand this principal).  It was a stupid request and killing them was stupid.  It was unnecessary.  It is also significantly different then serving justice for those that broke laws (like with what Jon and Ned did).  The Tarley's broke no laws, they were serving their ruler and defending their kingdom from an invading horde.  You don't kill people in that situation once you've won.  That instills fear not loyalty and is a strategy that rarely works as eventually people in fear rebel.

You don't need the lords to rule.  At least not in their current form.  They're responsible for all the suffering with their fight for power.  Most of the houses have already been decimated from the years of fighting.  If you actually want to break the wheel, you start by taking away power from the lords. 

As for Randyll Tarly, he was pledged to High Garden.  So when Olenna Tyrell threw her support behind Dany, Tarly should have done so as well.  Instead he broke his oath and supported Cersei even though he strongly disliked her.  Comparing to Edmure Tully is apples to oranges.  Dany won a battle not the war.  Randyll Tarly was a threat because he was possibly the best commander in Westeros.  He was the only one to defeat Robert Baratheon in battle.  Dany gave him a 2nd chance after losing the battle and he still wouldn't support her. 

Fear has worked quite well throughout human history and it has worked quite well in the GOT environment.  Besides once Dany had won the war, she wouldn't be oppressing the people.  She'd be trying to make things better.   

Jon killing Olly was worse than Dany killing Randyll Tarly and his adult son.  Olly was a kid who'd seen his family brutally murdered by Wildings.  He'd joined the Nigh****ch to defend against the Wildings.  Then Jon makes a deal with them.  Olly wasn't a leader of the mutiny and he wasn't a threat any longer.  Jon could have easily spared Olly.  He could have been sent to Eas****ch since they needed all the men possible to defend against the dead. 

[Moranis]

And I've seen so many articles about them making Dany a villain turn is basically anti-woman.  Of course the problem with that line of thinking is Dany has always been a villain.  I mean just go back to season 1 where she gleefully watches her husband poor molten gold on her brother and kill him.  She is a ruthless killer that relishes in making her perceived enemies suffer (and I do mean perceived enemies i.e. people like the Tarley's).  She has always ever wanted one thing and has done everything and anything to achieve that goal (even her trip up north was meant as a way of securing a large part of the 7 Kingdoms as allies).  The simple truth is Dany has always been best suited as a conquistador i.e. a ruthless killing machine.  She was never suited to truly lead and certainly not lead in a peaceful kingdom (which is where this is ending up).  She was a strong powerful women which blinded many to the simple fact that she is a villain cut from the same cloth as Cersei.  They are basically one in the same, different backgrounds but similar ambition. 

The show is clearly rushing her full-on Mad Queen persona because they have to, but this path has been apparent from the beginning and isn't just some new development.

That's absolute nonsense.  Dany arguably has done more good than anyone.  Her brother was vile, abusive and weak.  He sold Dany, his sister, to Khal Drogo to get his support to take the Iron Throne.  Even so, Dany still protected him for a while even though he continued to be abusive.  As for his golden crown, she wasn't gleeful although she had every right to be.  She just recognized her brother wasn't a true dragon and wasn't fit for the Iron Throne. 

When Dany took over, she put an end to the Dothraki raping and pillaging.  When Dany "bought" the Unsullied, she immediately freed them and immediately said they could leave if they desired.  Dany freed the slaves in 3 cities even though it detracted from her quest for the Iron Throne.  If she was only focused on the Iron Throne, she would have taken the slaver's deal to get more men and ships.  When she got to Westeros, she made Yara pledge that the Iron Born would give up their pillaging.  Dany clearly went North for Jon and it has cost her dearly.  If she's as bad as you say, she wouldn't have listened to Tyrion's dumb plans.  She would have just attacked King's Landing and burned it to the ground if necessary. 

Is Dany hard and sometimes brutal?  Most definitely but that is what is sometimes required of a ruler, or anyone, in GOT.  Dany killing the Tarley's was brutal but it was also necessary.  What was she supposed to do start a prisoner of war camp?  What was Jon when killed the Nigh****ch traitors including Olly who was just a kid?  Brutal and hard.  What was Ned when he killed the Nigh****ch runaway?  Brutal and hard.  The people who aren't brutal and hard end up dead. 

It amazes me how Cersei is so vilified when she's not close to being the worst villain on the show.

There is a lot here I just disagree with and frankly is wrong but the Tarley's absolutely did not have to die.  There was no reason at all to wipe out an entire house.  You need lords to rule.  Remember she was an invading army with Dothraki barbarians and dragons decimating people.  You don't get undying loyalty when you are the invader (heck even when you aren't you don't wipe out lords - you know like Edmure Tully is still alive because the Lannisters understand this principal).  It was a stupid request and killing them was stupid.  It was unnecessary.  It is also significantly different then serving justice for those that broke laws (like with what Jon and Ned did).  The Tarley's broke no laws, they were serving their ruler and defending their kingdom from an invading horde.  You don't kill people in that situation once you've won.  That instills fear not loyalty and is a strategy that rarely works as eventually people in fear rebel.

You don't need the lords to rule.  At least not in their current form.  They're responsible for all the suffering with their fight for power.  Most of the houses have already been decimated from the years of fighting.  If you actually want to break the wheel, you start by taking away power from the lords. 

As for Randyll Tarly, he was pledged to High Garden.  So when Olenna Tyrell threw her support behind Dany, Tarly should have done so as well.  Instead he broke his oath and supported Cersei even though he strongly disliked her.  Comparing to Edmure Tully is apples to oranges.  Dany won a battle not the war.  Randyll Tarly was a threat because he was possibly the best commander in Westeros.  He was the only one to defeat Robert Baratheon in battle.  Dany gave him a 2nd chance after losing the battle and he still wouldn't support her. 

Fear has worked quite well throughout human history and it has worked quite well in the GOT environment.  Besides once Dany had won the war, she wouldn't be oppressing the people.  She'd be trying to make things better.   

Jon killing Olly was worse than Dany killing Randyll Tarly and his adult son.  Olly was a kid who'd seen his family brutally murdered by Wildings.  He'd joined the Nigh****ch to defend against the Wildings.  Then Jon makes a deal with them.  Olly wasn't a leader of the mutiny and he wasn't a threat any longer.  Jon could have easily spared Olly.  He could have been sent to Eas****ch since they needed all the men possible to defend against the dead.

The thing is, Dany didn't kill Randyll because he broke his oath to the Tyrell's (and let's be clear he broke his oath to someone committing a mutiny to side with the ultimate ruler), she killed him because he wouldn't bend the knee.  That is a terrible reason to kill someone, especially when you are an invader and as you say not yet the ruler of the kingdom.  It is certainly no reason to kill Dickon either.  And let's be clear burning someone alive (and then presumably letting your dragons eat them) is about as inhumane way to kill someone as possible.  Dany has always been a villain.  It is far more clear in the books than the show, but she is a villain.  This isn't some strange turn the show is making willy nilly at the last minute.  they are absolutely accelerating the villain turn, but a villain she has always been.

Olly was a traitor.  He was part of a mutiny.  There isn't any way he could be spared.  They all had to die. 

[nickagneta]

I think most of Martin's characters are various shades of grey and not the black and white, good guy versus bad guy that some might be portraying.

I don't think the things Dany or Jon have done are either good or bad. Both are young and extremely inexperienced in doing the stuff that they have done, i.e. ruling and decision making.

[Roy H.]

I think most of Martin's characters are various shades of grey and not the black and white, good guy versus bad guy that some might be portraying.

I think that's right.  Even the most morally centered of the characters -- Ned, Jon -- had serious flaws.  Probably not coincidentally, both died in large part due to that morality, although Jon was resurrected.

I do think that Dany is drifting more toward the proverbial dark side, though.  I think that we'll ultimately see that those who crave power are all corrupted.  Meanwhile, we'll see if Jon can do better than his surrogate father in terms of playing the reluctant hero.

[tazzmaniac]

I think most of Martin's characters are various shades of grey and not the black and white, good guy versus bad guy that some might be portraying.

I don't think the things Dany or Jon have done are either good or bad. Both are young and extremely inexperienced in doing the stuff that they have done, i.e. ruling and decision making.

Definitely shades of gray for most including Jon and Dany.  Although a few like Ramsey Bolton and the Mountain are pretty much pitch black.  Jon and Dany have done both good and bad acts.  Sometimes bad acts are necessary. 

[tazzmaniac]

And I've seen so many articles about them making Dany a villain turn is basically anti-woman.  Of course the problem with that line of thinking is Dany has always been a villain.  I mean just go back to season 1 where she gleefully watches her husband poor molten gold on her brother and kill him.  She is a ruthless killer that relishes in making her perceived enemies suffer (and I do mean perceived enemies i.e. people like the Tarley's).  She has always ever wanted one thing and has done everything and anything to achieve that goal (even her trip up north was meant as a way of securing a large part of the 7 Kingdoms as allies).  The simple truth is Dany has always been best suited as a conquistador i.e. a ruthless killing machine.  She was never suited to truly lead and certainly not lead in a peaceful kingdom (which is where this is ending up).  She was a strong powerful women which blinded many to the simple fact that she is a villain cut from the same cloth as Cersei.  They are basically one in the same, different backgrounds but similar ambition. 

The show is clearly rushing her full-on Mad Queen persona because they have to, but this path has been apparent from the beginning and isn't just some new development.

That's absolute nonsense.  Dany arguably has done more good than anyone.  Her brother was vile, abusive and weak.  He sold Dany, his sister, to Khal Drogo to get his support to take the Iron Throne.  Even so, Dany still protected him for a while even though he continued to be abusive.  As for his golden crown, she wasn't gleeful although she had every right to be.  She just recognized her brother wasn't a true dragon and wasn't fit for the Iron Throne. 

When Dany took over, she put an end to the Dothraki raping and pillaging.  When Dany "bought" the Unsullied, she immediately freed them and immediately said they could leave if they desired.  Dany freed the slaves in 3 cities even though it detracted from her quest for the Iron Throne.  If she was only focused on the Iron Throne, she would have taken the slaver's deal to get more men and ships.  When she got to Westeros, she made Yara pledge that the Iron Born would give up their pillaging.  Dany clearly went North for Jon and it has cost her dearly.  If she's as bad as you say, she wouldn't have listened to Tyrion's dumb plans.  She would have just attacked King's Landing and burned it to the ground if necessary. 

Is Dany hard and sometimes brutal?  Most definitely but that is what is sometimes required of a ruler, or anyone, in GOT.  Dany killing the Tarley's was brutal but it was also necessary.  What was she supposed to do start a prisoner of war camp?  What was Jon when killed the Nigh****ch traitors including Olly who was just a kid?  Brutal and hard.  What was Ned when he killed the Nigh****ch runaway?  Brutal and hard.  The people who aren't brutal and hard end up dead. 

It amazes me how Cersei is so vilified when she's not close to being the worst villain on the show.

There is a lot here I just disagree with and frankly is wrong but the Tarley's absolutely did not have to die.  There was no reason at all to wipe out an entire house.  You need lords to rule.  Remember she was an invading army with Dothraki barbarians and dragons decimating people.  You don't get undying loyalty when you are the invader (heck even when you aren't you don't wipe out lords - you know like Edmure Tully is still alive because the Lannisters understand this principal).  It was a stupid request and killing them was stupid.  It was unnecessary.  It is also significantly different then serving justice for those that broke laws (like with what Jon and Ned did).  The Tarley's broke no laws, they were serving their ruler and defending their kingdom from an invading horde.  You don't kill people in that situation once you've won.  That instills fear not loyalty and is a strategy that rarely works as eventually people in fear rebel.

You don't need the lords to rule.  At least not in their current form.  They're responsible for all the suffering with their fight for power.  Most of the houses have already been decimated from the years of fighting.  If you actually want to break the wheel, you start by taking away power from the lords. 

As for Randyll Tarly, he was pledged to High Garden.  So when Olenna Tyrell threw her support behind Dany, Tarly should have done so as well.  Instead he broke his oath and supported Cersei even though he strongly disliked her.  Comparing to Edmure Tully is apples to oranges.  Dany won a battle not the war.  Randyll Tarly was a threat because he was possibly the best commander in Westeros.  He was the only one to defeat Robert Baratheon in battle.  Dany gave him a 2nd chance after losing the battle and he still wouldn't support her. 

Fear has worked quite well throughout human history and it has worked quite well in the GOT environment.  Besides once Dany had won the war, she wouldn't be oppressing the people.  She'd be trying to make things better.   

Jon killing Olly was worse than Dany killing Randyll Tarly and his adult son.  Olly was a kid who'd seen his family brutally murdered by Wildings.  He'd joined the Nigh****ch to defend against the Wildings.  Then Jon makes a deal with them.  Olly wasn't a leader of the mutiny and he wasn't a threat any longer.  Jon could have easily spared Olly.  He could have been sent to Eas****ch since they needed all the men possible to defend against the dead.

The thing is, Dany didn't kill Randyll because he broke his oath to the Tyrell's (and let's be clear he broke his oath to someone committing a mutiny to side with the ultimate ruler), she killed him because he wouldn't bend the knee.  That is a terrible reason to kill someone, especially when you are an invader and as you say not yet the ruler of the kingdom.  It is certainly no reason to kill Dickon either.  And let's be clear burning someone alive (and then presumably letting your dragons eat them) is about as inhumane way to kill someone as possible.  Dany has always been a villain.  It is far more clear in the books than the show, but she is a villain.  This isn't some strange turn the show is making willy nilly at the last minute.  they are absolutely accelerating the villain turn, but a villain she has always been.

Olly was a traitor.  He was part of a mutiny.  There isn't any way he could be spared.  They all had to die.

Your just wrong about Dany in the show and the books.  Heck in the books Dany was 13 when she was forced to marry Khal Drogo.  Danny freeing the slaves in three cities even though it actually impeded her Iron Throne quest shows your wrongness. 

[tazzmaniac]

I think most of Martin's characters are various shades of grey and not the black and white, good guy versus bad guy that some might be portraying.

I think that's right.  Even the most morally centered of the characters -- Ned, Jon -- had serious flaws.  Probably not coincidentally, both died in large part due to that morality, although Jon was resurrected.

I do think that Dany is drifting more toward the proverbial dark side, though.  I think that we'll ultimately see that those who crave power are all corrupted.  Meanwhile, we'll see if Jon can do better than his surrogate father in terms of playing the reluctant hero.

That certainly seems like where they are headed but it is rather simplistic and silly.  I'd hoped for better out of GOT.  Wanting to rule and have power doesn't make you corrupt or a poor ruler.  Not wanting to rule most certainly doesn't mean you'll be a good ruler. 

Based on her actions in Wessos, Dany is likely to be a generally benevolent dictator who might actually break the wheel by taking away power from the Houses and giving it to the people.  Since Dany can't have kids, she's not going to be acquiring power for her family. 

[nickagneta]

So.....do we get the 2nd Battle of Kings Landing tonight? Will there be a 2nd Battle of Kings Landing or will we see maybe someone kill Cersei during a siege which would stop a battle from happening?

I think the show will need to resolve Cersei situation, one way or another, tonight and that the last show will set into place the future of Westeros by deciding who reigns, Dany, Jon or both together.

Can't wait.

[Phantom255x]

So.....do we get the 2nd Battle of Kings Landing tonight? Will there be a 2nd Battle of Kings Landing or will we see maybe someone kill Cersei during a siege which would stop a battle from happening?

I think the show will need to resolve Cersei situation, one way or another, tonight and that the last show will set into place the future of Westeros by deciding who reigns, Dany, Jon or both together.

Can't wait.

Imagine if Cersei is killed on Mother's Day 

[nickagneta]

Dang!!!! 2 hours tonight

[Csfan1984]

Mad Queen hardcore

[Jiri Welsch]

Mad Queen hardcore

She’s awful

[nickagneta]

Incredible episode.