Author Topic: Kyrie Irving trade idea  (Read 6722 times)

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Re: Kyrie Irving trade idea
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2018, 11:28:14 AM »

Offline Jvalin

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(...) Kyrie is an amazing player, but he's not really a team guy. (...)  The key to all this is that our others play better when they know that they will get more time on the court and that they will see the ball more.  Kyrie is not the kind of player who makes his team stronger by going one on one so often.  Great player.  Not necessarily great for a team.
The way I see it, there are 3 ways to make your teammates better:
- court vision
- defense
- elite shooting --> better spacing

With this in mind, here's how I see Kyrie's game:
- about average court vision for his position
- below average defender
- great shooter

Obviously, he ain't the ultimate team player, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he is not a team player.

« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 03:03:16 PM by Jvalin »

Re: Kyrie Irving trade idea
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2018, 11:42:07 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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(...) Kyrie is an amazing player, but he's not really a team guy. (...)  The key to all this is that our others play better when they know that they will get more time on the court and that they will see the ball more.  Kyrie is not the kind of player who makes his team stronger by going one on one so often.  Great player.  Not necessarily great for a team.
The way I see it, there are 3 ways to make your teammates better:
- court vision
- defense
- elite shooting --> better spacing

With this in mind, here's how I see Kyrie's game:
- about average court vision for his position
- below average defender
- great shooter

He ain't the ultimate team player, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he is not a team player.
I don't see what any of those factors do with being a team player. I would rate Tatum very similarly to Kyrie in your metric, does that make him a bad team player? Marcus Smart has average court vision is a great defensive player and one of the worst shooters ever, is he also not a team guy?

Re: Kyrie Irving trade idea
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2018, 01:30:08 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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There are very few trades that I would consider including Irving in and Whiteside is not one of them.  Davis, sure but how about Karl-Anthony Towns?  I know, not all that much more likely than getting Davis but how about:

Irving + Ojeleye
for
Towns + Gibson

Then start:

Smart
Hayward (or Brown but I think when ready, Hayward is the starter)
Tatum
Horford
Towns

Bench:
Rozier
Brown
Morris
Gibson
Williams

Teams would try to go small against us but when they do, go with more Morris and less Horford instead of both Horford and Towns on the court together.  Again, I know it is not likely but is the kind of player I would like to get back if I was even to consider trading Irving and even then, only if you are worried that Kyrie will not resign.

Re: Kyrie Irving trade idea
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2018, 01:38:45 PM »

Online DefenseWinsChamps

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There are four ways to break a team defense: 1) Stretch them past the three point line, 2) Slash them into the lane, 3) Crush them in the paint, or 4) overwhelm them with off-ball movement.

Kyrie Irving is probably top 5 in number 1 and top 5 in number 2. He's He constantly compromises the integrity of the team defense by pulling his defender out too high or beating his defender and drawing helpside defenders.

Some of that can be quantified by a stat called "secondary assists," which, if you don't know, are plays which Irving passes it to the player who gets the assist. Kyrie Irving is second in the NBA in secondary assists.

I still maintain that Irving can learn to make more advanced reads, which he has been doing a little lately. These plays include beating his man, getting to the paint, and drawing the off-ball defender from the corner. Then, instead of passing it to the corner, fake to the corner and draw the wing defender down, and then pass it to the wing.

Still, the stat 2nd in the NBA in secondary assists is pretty good evidence that he is a team guy.

Re: Kyrie Irving trade idea
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2018, 01:49:46 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Some of that can be quantified by a stat called "secondary assists," which, if you don't know, are plays which Irving passes it to the player who gets the assist. Kyrie Irving is second in the NBA in

Hadn't heard that one before but if you look at a team like the Spurs in their hey-day, no single player had high assists but as a team they had a lot of assists.  They did this by everyone passing, everyone moving, everyone making shots.  I am not sure what it says about Kyrie that he is second in secondary assists but Kyrie is a scorer/penetrater first.  He makes others better because the defense needs to tilt his way and that gives everyone else a little more room and gives him places to pass the ball to.

Re: Kyrie Irving trade idea
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2018, 01:58:09 PM »

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Some of that can be quantified by a stat called "secondary assists," which, if you don't know, are plays which Irving passes it to the player who gets the assist. Kyrie Irving is second in the NBA in

Hadn't heard that one before but if you look at a team like the Spurs in their hey-day, no single player had high assists but as a team they had a lot of assists.  They did this by everyone passing, everyone moving, everyone making shots.  I am not sure what it says about Kyrie that he is second in secondary assists but Kyrie is a scorer/penetrater first.  He makes others better because the defense needs to tilt his way and that gives everyone else a little more room and gives him places to pass the ball to.

Yeah, in fact, Irving is so good this year that, if he stays on this pace in secondary assists, his per game secondary assists would third highest in all of the last 5 years.

https://stats.nba.com/players/passing/?sort=SECONDARY_AST&dir=1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Guys like Chris Paul, Mike Conley, Steph Curry, Lebron James, and Tony Parker, have normally been at the top of the NBA in this over the past 5 years.

In Irving's case, the narrative around his game about selfishness or poor defense is simply not corroborated by any stat or unbiased eye test today.

Re: Kyrie Irving trade idea
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2018, 02:40:27 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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(...) Kyrie is an amazing player, but he's not really a team guy. (...)  The key to all this is that our others play better when they know that they will get more time on the court and that they will see the ball more.  Kyrie is not the kind of player who makes his team stronger by going one on one so often.  Great player.  Not necessarily great for a team.
The way I see it, there are 3 ways to make your teammates better:
- court vision
- defense
- elite shooting --> better spacing

With this in mind, here's how I see Kyrie's game:
- about average court vision for his position
- below average defender
- great shooter

He ain't the ultimate team player, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he is not a team player.
I don't see what any of those factors do with being a team player. I would rate Tatum very similarly to Kyrie in your metric, does that make him a bad team player? Marcus Smart has average court vision is a great defensive player and one of the worst shooters ever, is he also not a team guy?
What I wrote was ''there are 3 ways to make your teammates better (...)''

Basketball is a team game. The way I see it, team players are those who make their teammates better.

Regarding Tatum, I see a lot of similarities with Carmelo.
- great iso scorer
- shoots the long 2 a lot
- slightly better court vision(?)
- better defender (nothing special though)

Hate to say it, but yeah, I don't think Tatum excels in team basketball.

Smart is a pass-first PG who thrives on D. If he were a better shooter, he would have been the ultimate team player.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 03:02:25 PM by Jvalin »

Re: Kyrie Irving trade idea
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2018, 05:11:33 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Kyrie for Whiteside, LOL, this has to be one of the funniest trade ideas I have ever seen.

Re: Kyrie Irving trade idea
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2018, 05:19:19 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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(...) Kyrie is an amazing player, but he's not really a team guy. (...)  The key to all this is that our others play better when they know that they will get more time on the court and that they will see the ball more.  Kyrie is not the kind of player who makes his team stronger by going one on one so often.  Great player.  Not necessarily great for a team.
The way I see it, there are 3 ways to make your teammates better:
- court vision
- defense
- elite shooting --> better spacing

With this in mind, here's how I see Kyrie's game:
- about average court vision for his position
- below average defender
- great shooter

He ain't the ultimate team player, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he is not a team player.
I don't see what any of those factors do with being a team player. I would rate Tatum very similarly to Kyrie in your metric, does that make him a bad team player? Marcus Smart has average court vision is a great defensive player and one of the worst shooters ever, is he also not a team guy?
What I wrote was ''there are 3 ways to make your teammates better (...)''

Basketball is a team game. The way I see it, team players are those who make their teammates better.

Regarding Tatum, I see a lot of similarities with Carmelo.
- great iso scorer
- shoots the long 2 a lot
- slightly better court vision(?)
- better defender (nothing special though)

Hate to say it, but yeah, I don't think Tatum excels in team basketball.

Smart is a pass-first PG who thrives on D. If he were a better shooter, he would have been the ultimate team player.
You give Smart a positive in being a pass first PG but Kyrie has more assists per game and per 36. Kyrie has an assist% 7% higher than Smart's which is a lot. That tells me that by your definition Smart's ability to pass as a pass first PG is worse than shoot first PG Kyrie. So then doesn't that now make Kyrie a team player?

Your factors just don't seem relative to explaining if a player is a team player or not. There are just a ton of players who you could plug into that criteria and be completely wrong about him.

Re: Kyrie Irving trade idea
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2018, 05:20:57 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Kyrie for Whiteside, LOL, this has to be one of the funniest trade ideas I have ever seen.


When I responded that it seemed like a joke, this was precisely why.  Proposing Kyrie for Whiteside on the basis that Kyrie isn't a good team player just seems like a poorly disguised joke.  The lack of subtlety undermines the humor, for me.

If serious, though, well, that is funny.
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Re: Kyrie Irving trade idea
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2018, 05:23:53 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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We'd be looking like a bunch of backsides if we made this trade.

Re: Kyrie Irving trade idea
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2018, 05:31:42 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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OP is clearly on something, because trading Kyrie for Whiteside is like turning on trade override for Semi Ojeyele for Davis.

Also Jvalin doesn't like Kyrie, surprise, surprise.. What else is new.......
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Re: Kyrie Irving trade idea
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2018, 06:59:33 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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(...) Kyrie is an amazing player, but he's not really a team guy. (...)  The key to all this is that our others play better when they know that they will get more time on the court and that they will see the ball more.  Kyrie is not the kind of player who makes his team stronger by going one on one so often.  Great player.  Not necessarily great for a team.
The way I see it, there are 3 ways to make your teammates better:
- court vision
- defense
- elite shooting --> better spacing

With this in mind, here's how I see Kyrie's game:
- about average court vision for his position
- below average defender
- great shooter

He ain't the ultimate team player, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he is not a team player.
I don't see what any of those factors do with being a team player. I would rate Tatum very similarly to Kyrie in your metric, does that make him a bad team player? Marcus Smart has average court vision is a great defensive player and one of the worst shooters ever, is he also not a team guy?
What I wrote was ''there are 3 ways to make your teammates better (...)''

Basketball is a team game. The way I see it, team players are those who make their teammates better.

Regarding Tatum, I see a lot of similarities with Carmelo.
- great iso scorer
- shoots the long 2 a lot
- slightly better court vision(?)
- better defender (nothing special though)

Hate to say it, but yeah, I don't think Tatum excels in team basketball.

Smart is a pass-first PG who thrives on D. If he were a better shooter, he would have been the ultimate team player.
You give Smart a positive in being a pass first PG but Kyrie has more assists per game and per 36. Kyrie has an assist% 7% higher than Smart's which is a lot. That tells me that by your definition Smart's ability to pass as a pass first PG is worse than shoot first PG Kyrie. So then doesn't that now make Kyrie a team player?
Except Kyrie is our go-to guy, hence he has the ball in his hands a lot more than Smart. It's only logical that Kyrie has assisted a bigger % of field goals compared to any other Celtic (including Smart who is second in this list).

Not to mention the fact that opposing teams focus their defensive effort on Kyrie, giving him more opportunities for easy passes to open teammates. To put it another way, opposing teams are daring Kyrie to pass the ball rather than shoot it. The exact opposite goes for Smart. Everyone is daring him to shoot, which makes it even harder for him to find a good pass.

My way to measure court vision is assist to turnover ratio.

Smart's career average is 2.29 (3.9 ast, 1.7 t/o)
Kyrie's career average is 2.03 (5.5 ast, 2.7 t/o)

Going by these numbers, Kyrie is an average passer whereas Smart is an above average one.

This season's numbers are even more in favor of Smart.
Smart 2.92 (4.1 ast, 1.4 t/o)
Kyrie 2.33 (6.3 ast, 2.7 t/o)


Your factors just don't seem relative to explaining if a player is a team player or not. There are just a ton of players who you could plug into that criteria and be completely wrong about him.
Could you give me an example of a player that fits 2 out of the 3 criteria (especially the first two), yet you don't consider him to be a team player?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 07:26:06 PM by Jvalin »

Re: Kyrie Irving trade idea
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2018, 07:25:40 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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(...) Kyrie is an amazing player, but he's not really a team guy. (...)  The key to all this is that our others play better when they know that they will get more time on the court and that they will see the ball more.  Kyrie is not the kind of player who makes his team stronger by going one on one so often.  Great player.  Not necessarily great for a team.
The way I see it, there are 3 ways to make your teammates better:
- court vision
- defense
- elite shooting --> better spacing

With this in mind, here's how I see Kyrie's game:
- about average court vision for his position
- below average defender
- great shooter

He ain't the ultimate team player, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he is not a team player.
I don't see what any of those factors do with being a team player. I would rate Tatum very similarly to Kyrie in your metric, does that make him a bad team player? Marcus Smart has average court vision is a great defensive player and one of the worst shooters ever, is he also not a team guy?
What I wrote was ''there are 3 ways to make your teammates better (...)''

Basketball is a team game. The way I see it, team players are those who make their teammates better.

Regarding Tatum, I see a lot of similarities with Carmelo.
- great iso scorer
- shoots the long 2 a lot
- slightly better court vision(?)
- better defender (nothing special though)

Hate to say it, but yeah, I don't think Tatum excels in team basketball.

Smart is a pass-first PG who thrives on D. If he were a better shooter, he would have been the ultimate team player.
You give Smart a positive in being a pass first PG but Kyrie has more assists per game and per 36. Kyrie has an assist% 7% higher than Smart's which is a lot. That tells me that by your definition Smart's ability to pass as a pass first PG is worse than shoot first PG Kyrie. So then doesn't that now make Kyrie a team player?
Except Kyrie is our go-to guy, hence he has the ball in his hands a lot more than Smart. It's only logical that Kyrie has assisted a bigger % of field goals compared to any other Celtic (including Smart who is second in this list).

Not to mention the fact that opposing teams focus their defensive effort on Kyrie, giving him more opportunities for easy passes to open teammates. To put it another way, opposing teams are daring Kyrie to pass the ball rather than shoot it. The exact opposite goes for Smart. Everyone is daring him to shoot, which makes it even harder for him to find a good pass.

My way to measure court vision is assist to turnover ratio.

Smart's career average is 2.29 (3.9 ast, 1.7 t/o)
Kyrie's career average is 2.03 (5.5 ast, 2.7 t/o)

Going by these numbers, Kyrie is an average passer whereas Smart is an above average one.

This season's numbers are even more in favor of Smart.
Smart 2.92 (4.1 ast, 1.4 t/o)
Kyrie 2.33 (6.3 ast, 2.7 t/o)


Your factors just don't seem relative to explaining if a player is a team player or not. There are just a ton of players who you could plug into that criteria and be completely wrong about him.
Could you give me an example of a player that fits 2 out of the 3 criteria, yet you don't consider him to be a team player?
I would figure assist% and tov% would make more sense for your formula over very simple assists to turnover ratio. Wouldn't it make sense to use assists and turnovers per 100 possessions. When you use asst%/tov% ratio Kyrie has a 2.8 ratio where Smart has a 1.25 ratio. Looking at your strange definition of seeing the court with that one simple stat that looks at simple stats when you properly weigh everything equally as in a possession, Kyrie is much better than Smart.

And your logic on how hard or easy it is to make a pass is weird. The defense as a whole is spending more effort guarding Kyrie and that makes it easier to pass? So more guys guarding you and guarding you tighter makes it easier to get a pass off? Failed logic.

How easy or hard to pass is determined by each possession. You can make easy passes in guarding as tight as possible as it is when they play off the player. It's just as hard to pass to someone when you have a bunch of hands and body around you and other players are responding to you as it is trying to make a pass to all the other players who are playing tight and have a Rover who plays off the ball handler.

Sorry, I am not going to go find players that don't fit into a criteria I think is worthless.

Re: Kyrie Irving trade idea
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2018, 07:48:16 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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(...) Kyrie is an amazing player, but he's not really a team guy. (...)  The key to all this is that our others play better when they know that they will get more time on the court and that they will see the ball more.  Kyrie is not the kind of player who makes his team stronger by going one on one so often.  Great player.  Not necessarily great for a team.
The way I see it, there are 3 ways to make your teammates better:
- court vision
- defense
- elite shooting --> better spacing

With this in mind, here's how I see Kyrie's game:
- about average court vision for his position
- below average defender
- great shooter

He ain't the ultimate team player, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he is not a team player.
I don't see what any of those factors do with being a team player. I would rate Tatum very similarly to Kyrie in your metric, does that make him a bad team player? Marcus Smart has average court vision is a great defensive player and one of the worst shooters ever, is he also not a team guy?
What I wrote was ''there are 3 ways to make your teammates better (...)''

Basketball is a team game. The way I see it, team players are those who make their teammates better.

Regarding Tatum, I see a lot of similarities with Carmelo.
- great iso scorer
- shoots the long 2 a lot
- slightly better court vision(?)
- better defender (nothing special though)

Hate to say it, but yeah, I don't think Tatum excels in team basketball.

Smart is a pass-first PG who thrives on D. If he were a better shooter, he would have been the ultimate team player.
You give Smart a positive in being a pass first PG but Kyrie has more assists per game and per 36. Kyrie has an assist% 7% higher than Smart's which is a lot. That tells me that by your definition Smart's ability to pass as a pass first PG is worse than shoot first PG Kyrie. So then doesn't that now make Kyrie a team player?
Except Kyrie is our go-to guy, hence he has the ball in his hands a lot more than Smart. It's only logical that Kyrie has assisted a bigger % of field goals compared to any other Celtic (including Smart who is second in this list).

Not to mention the fact that opposing teams focus their defensive effort on Kyrie, giving him more opportunities for easy passes to open teammates. To put it another way, opposing teams are daring Kyrie to pass the ball rather than shoot it. The exact opposite goes for Smart. Everyone is daring him to shoot, which makes it even harder for him to find a good pass.

My way to measure court vision is assist to turnover ratio.

Smart's career average is 2.29 (3.9 ast, 1.7 t/o)
Kyrie's career average is 2.03 (5.5 ast, 2.7 t/o)

Going by these numbers, Kyrie is an average passer whereas Smart is an above average one.

This season's numbers are even more in favor of Smart.
Smart 2.92 (4.1 ast, 1.4 t/o)
Kyrie 2.33 (6.3 ast, 2.7 t/o)


Your factors just don't seem relative to explaining if a player is a team player or not. There are just a ton of players who you could plug into that criteria and be completely wrong about him.
Could you give me an example of a player that fits 2 out of the 3 criteria, yet you don't consider him to be a team player?
I would figure assist% and tov% would make more sense for your formula over very simple assists to turnover ratio. Wouldn't it make sense to use assists and turnovers per 100 possessions. When you use asst%/tov% ratio Kyrie has a 2.8 ratio where Smart has a 1.25 ratio. Looking at your strange definition of seeing the court with that one simple stat that looks at simple stats when you properly weigh everything equally as in a possession, Kyrie is much better than Smart.

And your logic on how hard or easy it is to make a pass is weird. The defense as a whole is spending more effort guarding Kyrie and that makes it easier to pass? So more guys guarding you and guarding you tighter makes it easier to get a pass off? Failed logic.

How easy or hard to pass is determined by each possession. You can make easy passes in guarding as tight as possible as it is when they play off the player. It's just as hard to pass to someone when you have a bunch of hands and body around you and other players are responding to you as it is trying to make a pass to all the other players who are playing tight and have a Rover who plays off the ball handler.

Sorry, I am not going to go find players that don't fit into a criteria I think is worthless.
Just one example. That's all I'm asking for. It must be an easy thing to do, given that ''the criteria is worthless''.

Shooting is massively important in today's NBA. Up until recently it wasn't all that important. I bet you cannot think of a good defender and good passer who is not considered a team player.

If we are talking exclusively about today's NBA, any 2 out of the 3 criteria would do the job for me.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 08:15:57 PM by Jvalin »