Should Brad Stevens be fired?

[wiley]

Yes!  Absolutely he should be!

Then re-hired 12 hours later....everyone needs a fire lit under their butt sometimes....

[GreenWarrior]

Every season we made the playoffs under brad stevens we were eliminated the same way every time - opposing team goes on a run and our answer to that is to Chuck up shots that never fall.

His 1st season here we'd shoot a jump shot with 20 secs. left on the shot clock.

His philosophy on offense is horrible and with young players it effects their defense which just cripples this teams chances to succeed.

But he'll be here for as long as he wants.

One thing you're eliding here is the fact that the team has made the playoffs under Brad every season except for year one.  Brad has had very young teams with a ton of roster turnover. Despite that they've gotten to round 3 in three of the last four years.

It's true there has been a similar pattern each time they've lost, but I think it's fair to say that in 2015-2019 they always lost to a superior opponent.

I think you can also argue this Heat team was a superior opponent. I think they were. Not from the perspective of talent at the top of the roster. But the Heat were deeper, bigger, and more experienced.

Brad has his flaws but I don't think there's any reasonable argument that he's failed to meet or exceed expectations based on the teams he's been given.

Unfortunately even if we wanted to replace stevens there really is no one available that would be an improvement or have the pro experience at head coach this team imo is lacking.

We need a coach that can handle the NBA player psyche, stevens has never shown he's been able to coach those types of players and they have all won it he hasn't.

Tatum, brown and smart are all in that same basket as rondo, green & Irving now as far as NBA player "psyche" goes and to make long story short it's easier to get a coach in this league than it is to get talent.

At some point we need to put these guys in the best position possible to win. We need to back these guys

[Who]

DeRozan is fantastic to mention because I was thinking about him and the Raptors offense in the "should Brad Stevens be fired" thread the other day. Boston's offense right now reminds me of the Raptors pre-title in so far as they are both lacking in team passing and are over-reliant on one-on-one basketball.

Toronto helped fix that (post-DeRozan) by bringing in Marc Gasol (high post facilitator) to play alongside Kyle Lowry. They helped create the basis for team passing on that title winning team alongside a top iso player in Kawhi and supporting star who plays off the ball a lot in Siakam.

Relative to Boston think:
Lowry is Kemba
Kawhi is Tatum
Siakam is Jaylen

Who is our Marc Gasol?

Marc Gasol only scored 10ppg in that title run but he kept that ball moving. Kept everyone else involved. Rotated the angles of their attacks. His passing was a key to their offense. Since Al Horford left, Boston lacks that element to their offense and due to that has become almost totally reliant on on-ball perimeter based attacks that opponents can load up on.

I posted this in the trade ideas thread - just to continue on:

I feel this needs to be our team's focus in the off-season. To try and improve team passing and team based offense rather than trying to add more individual scorers.

We need guys (role players / glue guys) who can facilitate the offense with their passing and play off the ball effectively (3 point shooting, spot up shooting). Not scorers.

Not players who rely on individuality but instead players who operate best in a collective mindset. So less shot-creators and more passers & shooters - in terms of finishing the roster, plugging depth, acquiring the right type of role players.


----------------

I really feel like our team's passing ability is lacking and not getting the attention it warrants.

Without more big man passing, everything we are doing is 25 feet from the basket with 5 defenders between us and the rim allowing teams to load up on the ball-handler. It makes us predictable and easier to defend.

We need more passing - particularly big man passing - to unlock the full potential of our scorers.

[wiley]

DeRozan is fantastic to mention because I was thinking about him and the Raptors offense in the "should Brad Stevens be fired" thread the other day. Boston's offense right now reminds me of the Raptors pre-title in so far as they are both lacking in team passing and are over-reliant on one-on-one basketball.

Toronto helped fix that (post-DeRozan) by bringing in Marc Gasol (high post facilitator) to play alongside Kyle Lowry. They helped create the basis for team passing on that title winning team alongside a top iso player in Kawhi and supporting star who plays off the ball a lot in Siakam.

Relative to Boston think:
Lowry is Kemba
Kawhi is Tatum
Siakam is Jaylen

Who is our Marc Gasol?

Marc Gasol only scored 10ppg in that title run but he kept that ball moving. Kept everyone else involved. Rotated the angles of their attacks. His passing was a key to their offense. Since Al Horford left, Boston lacks that element to their offense and due to that has become almost totally reliant on on-ball perimeter based attacks that opponents can load up on.

I posted this in the trade ideas thread - just to continue on:

I feel this needs to be our team's focus in the off-season. To try and improve team passing and team based offense rather than trying to add more individual scorers.

We need guys (role players / glue guys) who can facilitate the offense with their passing and play off the ball effectively (3 point shooting, spot up shooting). Not scorers.

Not players who rely on individuality but instead players who operate best in a collective mindset. So less shot-creators and more passers & shooters - in terms of finishing the roster, plugging depth, acquiring the right type of role players.


----------------

I really feel like our team's passing ability is lacking and not getting the attention it warrants.

Without more big man passing, everything we are doing is 25 feet from the basket with 5 defenders between us and the rim allowing teams to load up on the ball-handler. It makes us predictable and easier to defend.

We need more passing - particularly big man passing - to unlock the full potential of our scorers.

Yup, agree.  Then Stevens will start to look real good again.  It's individual basketball that has people complaining I think, more than the other stuff people gripe about like timeouts, challenges and what not. 

Charles Barkeley nailed it.  He said:  The Celtics "don't play good basketball".  He then explained that on offense they are taking turns doing their individual stuff rather than the offense flowing organically and whoever is open shoots.  Of course, at times the offense does flow and they do look good, but what he was saying I think is that they easily revert to individuals taking turns when the going gets rough. 

Hayward at full strength helps...but it should be doubled up with a big man too.  And Hayward starts to turn it over when he tries to do too much...high dribble easy to pick.  This happens even when he's healthy (though less).

As you say, a great passing big man who can defend would be just what the doc ordered.  So, as much as I like Jamihus Ramsey and Paul Reed and Desmond Bane at 26, I hope they can snag Tillman at that spot.

R. Williams's passing is already good and should get better...but he has to catch up in other areas so they can take advantage more.  He'll keep improving for sure, but Tillman has those Horford like skills that the team needs right now.

[footey]

DeRozan is fantastic to mention because I was thinking about him and the Raptors offense in the "should Brad Stevens be fired" thread the other day. Boston's offense right now reminds me of the Raptors pre-title in so far as they are both lacking in team passing and are over-reliant on one-on-one basketball.

Toronto helped fix that (post-DeRozan) by bringing in Marc Gasol (high post facilitator) to play alongside Kyle Lowry. They helped create the basis for team passing on that title winning team alongside a top iso player in Kawhi and supporting star who plays off the ball a lot in Siakam.

Relative to Boston think:
Lowry is Kemba
Kawhi is Tatum
Siakam is Jaylen

Who is our Marc Gasol?

Marc Gasol only scored 10ppg in that title run but he kept that ball moving. Kept everyone else involved. Rotated the angles of their attacks. His passing was a key to their offense. Since Al Horford left, Boston lacks that element to their offense and due to that has become almost totally reliant on on-ball perimeter based attacks that opponents can load up on.

I posted this in the trade ideas thread - just to continue on:

I feel this needs to be our team's focus in the off-season. To try and improve team passing and team based offense rather than trying to add more individual scorers.

We need guys (role players / glue guys) who can facilitate the offense with their passing and play off the ball effectively (3 point shooting, spot up shooting). Not scorers.

Not players who rely on individuality but instead players who operate best in a collective mindset. So less shot-creators and more passers & shooters - in terms of finishing the roster, plugging depth, acquiring the right type of role players.


----------------

I really feel like our team's passing ability is lacking and not getting the attention it warrants.

Without more big man passing, everything we are doing is 25 feet from the basket with 5 defenders between us and the rim allowing teams to load up on the ball-handler. It makes us predictable and easier to defend.

We need more passing - particularly big man passing - to unlock the full potential of our scorers.

Yup, agree.  Then Stevens will start to look real good again.  It's individual basketball that has people complaining I think, more than the other stuff people gripe about like timeouts, challenges and what not. 

Charles Barkeley nailed it.  He said:  The Celtics "don't play good basketball".  He then explained that on offense they are taking turns doing their individual stuff rather than the offense flowing organically and whoever is open shoots.  Of course, at times the offense does flow and they do look good, but what he was saying I think is that they easily revert to individuals taking turns when the going gets rough. 

Hayward at full strength helps...but it should be doubled up with a big man too.  And Hayward starts to turn it over when he tries to do too much...high dribble easy to pick.  This happens even when he's healthy (though less).

As you say, a great passing big man who can defend would be just what the doc ordered.  So, as much as I like Jamihus Ramsey and Paul Reed and Desmond Bane at 26, I hope they can snag Tillman at that spot.

R. Williams's passing is already good and should get better...but he has to catch up in other areas so they can take advantage more.  He'll keep improving for sure, but Tillman has those Horford like skills that the team needs right now.

Agree with a lot of this, I actually posted the same point you made by Barkeley, although I attributed to Kenny Smith--they both were saying the same thing about how Miami played more cohesively than Boston.

Good listen to JVG talking to Zach Lowe on the Lowe Post.  Jeff feels that it wasn't the offense that killed Boston in the 4th quarter of game 6, that they were taking good shots that weren't falling. He said it was our inability to get stops.  The biggest culprit was Theis, due to a combination of him appearing to be gassed, and Bam just going for the jugular, smelling blood. 

I remain adamant that Rob Williams was poorly underutilized throughout the playoffs and particularly in the Heat series. (I started this thread after game 2 based on this sentiment). I will go to my grave believing that we would have won this series if Brad had unleashed him, our defensive pressure gets to another level with him in there, and he actually matches up physically quite well with Bam.

[wiley]

DeRozan is fantastic to mention because I was thinking about him and the Raptors offense in the "should Brad Stevens be fired" thread the other day. Boston's offense right now reminds me of the Raptors pre-title in so far as they are both lacking in team passing and are over-reliant on one-on-one basketball.

Toronto helped fix that (post-DeRozan) by bringing in Marc Gasol (high post facilitator) to play alongside Kyle Lowry. They helped create the basis for team passing on that title winning team alongside a top iso player in Kawhi and supporting star who plays off the ball a lot in Siakam.

Relative to Boston think:
Lowry is Kemba
Kawhi is Tatum
Siakam is Jaylen

Who is our Marc Gasol?

Marc Gasol only scored 10ppg in that title run but he kept that ball moving. Kept everyone else involved. Rotated the angles of their attacks. His passing was a key to their offense. Since Al Horford left, Boston lacks that element to their offense and due to that has become almost totally reliant on on-ball perimeter based attacks that opponents can load up on.

I posted this in the trade ideas thread - just to continue on:

I feel this needs to be our team's focus in the off-season. To try and improve team passing and team based offense rather than trying to add more individual scorers.

We need guys (role players / glue guys) who can facilitate the offense with their passing and play off the ball effectively (3 point shooting, spot up shooting). Not scorers.

Not players who rely on individuality but instead players who operate best in a collective mindset. So less shot-creators and more passers & shooters - in terms of finishing the roster, plugging depth, acquiring the right type of role players.


----------------

I really feel like our team's passing ability is lacking and not getting the attention it warrants.

Without more big man passing, everything we are doing is 25 feet from the basket with 5 defenders between us and the rim allowing teams to load up on the ball-handler. It makes us predictable and easier to defend.

We need more passing - particularly big man passing - to unlock the full potential of our scorers.

Yup, agree.  Then Stevens will start to look real good again.  It's individual basketball that has people complaining I think, more than the other stuff people gripe about like timeouts, challenges and what not. 

Charles Barkeley nailed it.  He said:  The Celtics "don't play good basketball".  He then explained that on offense they are taking turns doing their individual stuff rather than the offense flowing organically and whoever is open shoots.  Of course, at times the offense does flow and they do look good, but what he was saying I think is that they easily revert to individuals taking turns when the going gets rough. 

Hayward at full strength helps...but it should be doubled up with a big man too.  And Hayward starts to turn it over when he tries to do too much...high dribble easy to pick.  This happens even when he's healthy (though less).

As you say, a great passing big man who can defend would be just what the doc ordered.  So, as much as I like Jamihus Ramsey and Paul Reed and Desmond Bane at 26, I hope they can snag Tillman at that spot.

R. Williams's passing is already good and should get better...but he has to catch up in other areas so they can take advantage more.  He'll keep improving for sure, but Tillman has those Horford like skills that the team needs right now.

Agree with a lot of this, I actually posted the same point you made by Barkeley, although I attributed to Kenny Smith--they both were saying the same thing about how Miami played more cohesively than Boston.

Good listen to JVG talking to Zach Lowe on the Lowe Post.  Jeff feels that it wasn't the offense that killed Boston in the 4th quarter of game 6, that they were taking good shots that weren't falling. He said it was our inability to get stops.  The biggest culprit was Theis, due to a combination of him appearing to be gassed, and Bam just going for the jugular, smelling blood. 

I remain adamant that Rob Williams was poorly underutilized throughout the playoffs and particularly in the Heat series. (I started this thread after game 2 based on this sentiment). I will go to my grave believing that we would have won this series if Brad had unleashed him, our defensive pressure gets to another level with him in there, and he actually matches up physically quite well with Bam.

Yeah, I would have like that.  What I didn't like was not sticking with any of our bigs for more than tiny spurts.  It's a nice idea that a big can come in after not playing and having no idea when they'll play, but in reality don't bigs need time to get into a rhythm both on their own and with their teammates? 

[tarheelsxxiii]

I don't think Brad, Kemba, or the overall team underperformed. 

Unpopular opinion, but I think Jimmy Butler was the best player in the series, and his impact was huge.

And who cares? We're legitimate competitors for years to come, and we've never even all been healthy -- imagine our big 4 with a decent rebounder? That team may be the most talented in the league as soon as next year.

[RPGenerate]

I don't think Brad, Kemba, or the overall team underperformed. 

Unpopular opinion, but I think Jimmy Butler was the best player in the series, and his impact was huge.

And who cares? We're legitimate competitors for years to come, and we've never even all been healthy -- imagine our big 4 with a decent rebounder? That team may be the most talented in the league as soon as next year.

Jimmy Butler wasn't even the best player on the Heat, let alone in the series.

[gouki88]

I don't think Brad, Kemba, or the overall team underperformed. 

Unpopular opinion, but I think Jimmy Butler was the best player in the series, and his impact was huge.

And who cares? We're legitimate competitors for years to come, and we've never even all been healthy -- imagine our big 4 with a decent rebounder? That team may be the most talented in the league as soon as next year.

Jimmy Butler wasn't even the best player on the Heat, let alone in the series.

Yeah, I'm with RPG

[Somebody]

I don't think Brad, Kemba, or the overall team underperformed. 

Unpopular opinion, but I think Jimmy Butler was the best player in the series, and his impact was huge.

And who cares? We're legitimate competitors for years to come, and we've never even all been healthy -- imagine our big 4 with a decent rebounder? That team may be the most talented in the league as soon as next year.

Jimmy Butler wasn't even the best player on the Heat, let alone in the series.

Yeah, I'm with RPG

Thought you meant rebounds per game for a second there

[gouki88]

I don't think Brad, Kemba, or the overall team underperformed. 

Unpopular opinion, but I think Jimmy Butler was the best player in the series, and his impact was huge.

And who cares? We're legitimate competitors for years to come, and we've never even all been healthy -- imagine our big 4 with a decent rebounder? That team may be the most talented in the league as soon as next year.

Jimmy Butler wasn't even the best player on the Heat, let alone in the series.

Yeah, I'm with RPG

Thought you meant rebounds per game for a second there

I like those too!

[tarheelsxxiii]

I don't think Brad, Kemba, or the overall team underperformed. 

Unpopular opinion, but I think Jimmy Butler was the best player in the series, and his impact was huge.

And who cares? We're legitimate competitors for years to come, and we've never even all been healthy -- imagine our big 4 with a decent rebounder? That team may be the most talented in the league as soon as next year.

Jimmy Butler wasn't even the best player on the Heat, let alone in the series.

Statistically, he definitely wasn't.  But I think his presence on the court had an enormous impact.  He's a constant threat on both ends and was a focus of our defense, but he's smart enough to adjust his role based on team needs. He also made some game-changing plays, even when he wasn't shooting well.

Kemba adjusted similarly for us, and tried to find his spots to continue contributing offensively.  These efforts just seem to be easily underappreciated when stat columns aren't filled.  But ya ain't winning a championship without guys of their overall caliber.

[tenn_smoothie]

Putting the salary cap realities aside for a moment, think of this year's Celtics team if we could have kept Horford and Baynes.
I think we are still playing in a dogfight with the Lakers for the title.

I think tarheels point is that we don't have a player like Butler to will our team to win tough playoff games. We do have Marcus - and he is a good tough-minded leader to have - the problem being sometimes he tries to lead by jacking up bad shots. A veteran like him should know by now how to play within his limits. He also needs a coach that will constantly remind him of those limits.