Tatum as the starting PF

[blink]

If both Tatum and Hayward start, it will be Hayward defending the other team's bigger, slower, more interior forward (the "PF"). Tatum will be defending the more perimeter oriented one. Lots of switching. It was alreayd like this last season.

On offense, Boston will play 4out, so the distinction between forwards is meaningless.

Starting a Tatum/Hayward 3/4 combo can be fine depending on the other players, especially who is the 5.

This is why I like S. Adams at center for us next year.

[RazzelnoDazzel]

For what it's worth, the chatter about how Tatum can't possibly play the 4 and it will stunt his development - I don't think playing the 4 in our system means rotating between the block and high post. Guys will be all over the floor, Tatum will play at the top of the key, corner, wing, some time in the block or high post, etc. He'll match up against the opposing 4, which in many cases is not exactly a banger. Quick review of starting PFs in the east last season. I starred the names I thought were clearly "more of a traditional PF" than Tatum:

MIL: Giannis/Middleton, depending on your definition
TOR: Pascal Siakam
PHI: Tobias Harris (borderline)
BKN: DeMarre Carroll
NYK: Lance Thomas*
IND: Thaddeus Young*
DET: Blake Griffin*
CHI: Lauri Markkanen*
CLE: Kevin Love*
ORL: Aaron Gordon*
MIA: Kelly Olynyk (right..??)
CHA: Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
WAS: Markieff Morris*
ATL: John Collins*


On that list, names with the asterisk - not a lot of winning teams. Orlando, Detroit, Philly and Indy were the playoff teams that featured a "more typical" PF - and still, not really. Gordon is flawed and is more of a 3/4. Thad Young is a 4, but he's 6'8". Harris was on the wing jacking threes. Blake was running the offense and also shooting jumpers.

The PF position is not what it used to be. And with defensive rotations, there aren't going to be a lot of 1-on-1 post ups where Kevin Love is feasting on Tatum in the block. Love is probably the nominal center on most lineups, for example. We need a big body/rim protector in the starting lineup, at the 5. I don't care about the 4.

Tatum doesn’t know how to guard bigs well he’s just too small man. He just plays way better at the 3 than the 4 as he often has mismatches that he won’t have at the PF position. He also likes to post up, which is something that will be troublesome again at the PF position. If we had a traditional big man then sure I’d care a lot less, but even if al comes back we will have an issue as we desperately need some length down low.

[seancally]

I think Tatum would get eaten alive as a 4.

I agree, which is why I don't see how we enter the season with Hayward and Tatum. Both guys are small forwards and both guys need to start. Having a 6'8 power forward is a recipe for 30 point blowout losses. Maybe Danny deals Hayward for Kevin Love?

I don't know.

I get your point, but would we really be better with K Love at the 4?  He isn't a good defender.  I would feel better with GH guarding a 4 than K love.

And again, we just won't face that many teams with two quality bigs that can go get buckets in the post. It isn't how the league works anymore. Heck if a team wants to disrupt their offense to try to take advantage of a mismatch in the post, go for it. That doesn't work.

It's almost useless to call the positions 1-5 anymore. The modern 4 is a traditional 3. The modern 5 is really a combo forward/center. Guards and wings all share ballhandling. This is about matchups, and if we can make our depth at the wing position work in our favor.

Our best three players, right now, are Brown/Tatum/Hayward. It would not shock me if 2 or 3 are knocking on the door for all-star. They need to play together.

[cltc5]

Didn’t mook play pf nd be was able to get his shots

[MichiganAdam]

If we have a vuc, GH, JT, JB, MS lineup we might be weakest at the 4...but the upgrade at the PG spot defensively would make up for that.  Yes some 4's would harass us, but that would be a pretty good overall lineup.

[RazzelnoDazzel]

Didn’t mook play pf nd be was able to get his shots

Yeah he couldn’t guard them either.

[keevsnick]

One thing to consider is the smart, brown, Hayward, Tatum with William's lineup would be switchable pretty much 1-5. I think you may also be seeing a situation where Jaylen/Tatum/Hayward all rotate on the PF. Jaylen played his like Love and Griffin well.

[cltc5]

Didn’t mook play pf nd be was able to get his shots

Yeah he couldn’t guard them either.

IM not worried about the low post defense.  Centers and smart can deal with that

[saltlover]

I think Tatum would get eaten alive as a 4.

I agree, which is why I don't see how we enter the season with Hayward and Tatum. Both guys are small forwards and both guys need to start. Having a 6'8 power forward is a recipe for 30 point blowout losses. Maybe Danny deals Hayward for Kevin Love?

I don't know.

I get your point, but would we really be better with K Love at the 4?  He isn't a good defender.  I would feel better with GH guarding a 4 than K love.

And again, we just won't face that many teams with two quality bigs that can go get buckets in the post. It isn't how the league works anymore. Heck if a team wants to disrupt their offense to try to take advantage of a mismatch in the post, go for it. That doesn't work.

It's almost useless to call the positions 1-5 anymore. The modern 4 is a traditional 3. The modern 5 is really a combo forward/center. Guards and wings all share ballhandling. This is about matchups, and if we can make our depth at the wing position work in our favor.

Our best three players, right now, are Brown/Tatum/Hayward. It would not shock me if 2 or 3 are knocking on the door for all-star. They need to play together.

I agree with all this.  Not to mention, people are so concerned about Tatum guarding traditional 4’s at times — when we’re running lineups in which Tatum is at the 4, those guys are going to have just as much trouble on defense keeping up with Tatum, Brown, or whomever they’re matched up against.  Mismatches can go both ways, and in a lot of cases it could favor the Celtics.

That’s not to say we shouldn’t have a more traditional 4 somewhere on the roster — Tatum going against those guys for 36 minutes a game will likely wear him down over the season. But that player or players doesn’t need to be a starter, just rotation-quality.  In a perfect world, Grant Williams can take some of those minutes.  Semi can as well.  I have no such hope for Yabusele, but it feels likely that someone can be had for the room exception to fit into that rotation spot as well, like a Mike Scott or Ed Davis.  If we wind up with a little more cap room because we go a cheaper route at center, I’d also look at JaMychael Green (who won’t be too expensive, but probably outside the room exception).  But all in all, I don’t understand the concern about not having a traditional starting-level PF on the roster at this point.  I get wanting a center, but the traditional 4 is no longer a full-time position.

[erisred]

If both Tatum and Hayward start, it will be Hayward defending the other team's bigger, slower, more interior forward (the "PF"). Tatum will be defending the more perimeter oriented one. Lots of switching. It was alreayd like this last season.

On offense, Boston will play 4out, so the distinction between forwards is meaningless.

Starting a Tatum/Hayward 3/4 combo can be fine depending on the other players, especially who is the 5.

I agree. The question isn't "Can Tatum defend PF's?" it's "Can Hayward defend PF's?" I think he can, but that's only IF the C's put a BIG on the floor next to Hayward/Tatum/Brown/Guard.

I don't think R Williams is ready for major minutes, so that BIG is NOT on the Celtics roster yet.  One of Vucevic, Adams, Bryant, R Lopez, or Cousins are needed.

[wdleehi]

Tatum or Hayward will like spend some time there in crunch time, but I don't think any of them will spend the majority of their minutes as pfs.  I would expect one of the three swingmen to be the 6th man.

[Silky]

Tatum needs to be on the wing with the ball. Andbwhile technically, offensively at least, a pf can play outside on offense, they still need to get inside defensively.

Who on that list is tatum slowing down?

Demarre carolle maybe?

Opposing PFs are often on the perimeter, so the defender will be out there, too. I don't have the numbers but my guess is that for most teams, most lineups involved one proper big man down low and others who rotated in and out, at most.

sure, against big power forwards,but against someone smaller than them they would post up.

and why wouldnt they, they do it on switches to smaller men

[footey]

Sign Adams.

Start:

Adams @ (5)
G Williams @ (4)
J Tatum @ (3)
J Brown or G Hayward @ (2)
G Hayward or Smart @ (1)

Adams great defender. G Williams like a bigger Marcus Smart, can defend the strong 4's; won't get pushed around.

If opposition starts small ball center, start G Williams at the 5, and sit Adams.  Move Smart to guard the power forward position. It's more about strength than size.

We would have real good roster flexibility with these guys. I expect G Williams can step right in from day 1, based on his tape.

[Sketch5]

People get so worried about "traditional" PF's.

If this was late 80's into the early 2000's, yeah it would be an issue. You had to have two guys who could guard (as best as possible) against the Shaqs,Mournings/Yoa's for the league. You needs a PF that could switch off if need to guard these guys.

Not too many to the back Centers and PF's any more. Most PF's work 3pt line in.

Stevens runs one small, three wings and one big usually. So what ends up happening is who ever the wings are matches up who they can guard best.

Plus they should have the mentally of not worrying who they have to guard, but make the other team have to worry. Hopefully Hayward or Tatum develop a post game, and if their guards match up to one of them, take them to the post, make the other team adjust if possible. 

[alt]

If both Tatum and Hayward start, it will be Hayward defending the other team's bigger, slower, more interior forward (the "PF"). Tatum will be defending the more perimeter oriented one. Lots of switching. It was alreayd like this last season.

On offense, Boston will play 4out, so the distinction between forwards is meaningless.

Starting a Tatum/Hayward 3/4 combo can be fine depending on the other players, especially who is the 5.

This is why I like S. Adams at center for us next year.

Yeah that could work. I'd like to see Adams playing under a coach like Stevens with a bigger offensive role as a passer and distributor and more spacing. I feel his offensive game has been constrained by OKC's lack of ball sharing.