Author Topic: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)  (Read 412150 times)

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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1860 on: May 20, 2019, 01:42:58 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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the conclusion of Jon's story was also pretty weak.  I would have been fine with him heading off North if it was his own choice.  THe idea that they are going to tell the rightful heir to the throne that he needs to go North after he saved the realm from a mass-murdering psychopath dragon witch - doesn't track logically.  It would have been fine if they made it clear that it was his choice... but literally everyone sitting there knew Jon was the best choice as King and it made zero sense for them to be like "nah, we can't do that cuz Greyworm is having a hissy fit" just doesn't work.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1861 on: May 20, 2019, 01:48:46 AM »

Online kraidstar

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There wasn't much tension in this episode, which is a shame. Aside from the beginning where Tyrion implores Jon to kill Dany, it really didn't feel like much was at stake the rest of the way.

Bran's story was underdeveloped. He was more a deus ex machina than anything. His powers provided a neat excuse for the writers to not have to pick a real winner. In some ways it makes sense - and I'm glad the kid finally got to do something - but there's a part of me that feels it's a cop-out.

I wish there had been a few more episodes to set all this up, especially Dany's turn, and Bran's ascension.

Hard to believe the Dothraki and Unsullied would give up so easily after their liberator was murdered. In general it seemed things ended too cleanly. Literally everyone was happy.

Also wish there had been more acknowledgement at the end of the mammoth challenge of rebuilding King's Landing, healing its people, and securing the trust and loyalty of the terrorized civilians. Really our heroes are finding themselves in a pretty horrific situation at the end, even though they technically won. It was a missed chance to better show the full extent of the damage of war.

Before anointing Bran they should have had an intermediate episode where the region falls into chaos, and the interim leadership proves incapable of maintaining order. Enter Bran and his Far Sight to save the day. It was another missed opportunity to create tension. One speech by Tyrion doesn't feel like it's enough to settle something so important as the appointing of a new King.

Tyrion was great overall though. He mostly held the episode together. It was still a bit too safe though, and the season felt a little short and undercooked.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1862 on: May 20, 2019, 03:12:56 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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This ended up making no sense on so many levels.

First of all, what the hell happened to Dany? She went from sacrificing her own ambitions to the throne by helping to save the North all the way to apparently not caring who she killed in order to achieve power. In like three episodes. her entire character arc this season was so rushed, so nonsensical, that I just couldn't believe it was happening.

Also, so nobody was gonna bring up that Jon is the rightful king? After all the build up on his lineage we get nothing? Him being Aegon was just a lot device to help drive Dany mad? Thats literally the only purpose it served since he didn't get the throne  the night king kill.

Also, so many problems with Bran being King. he went from "I can't be Lord of Winterfell" to "I came here to be king" in like three episodes. Then at the small council meeting he peace out in like three minutes. Also,  there is no way a cripple non-human psychic is getting elected king. Also, even if he was that is gonna lead to civil war, again, because there is no way the 6 kingdoms are staying together after he allowed the North to leave. Its such a stupid, contrived ending.

I m happy Jon Snow got to join the Wildlings, as Tormund said the real north was in him. But it also kind of resolves nothing. After all the unsullied left and Jon is still the rightful king. So whats stopping anybody from just saying "LOL, Jon is pardoned and now king." It would have made more sense if it had been his decision. IE "I can't be king, I killed my queen. I go into exile."

In the end if there was one lesson, its that the most dangerous thing a ruler can posses is absolute certainty. That was really Dany's downfall. She was able and willing to do horrible things because she believed, without a doubt, that what she was doing was right. The ends justified the means. It was her decision, and no one elses. The scene with her and Jon juxtaposed that nicely, where he says "How do you know (what is good/right)" and she answered basically because it was her right to decide. Thats was the moment where Jon realized she was too far gone. So he made his own decision and ended her, but even after that he asks "How do I know I did the right thing, it doesn't feel right." Dany's sense f certainty corrupted her, and thats why Tyrion said Kings should no longer be born but made. It is the sense of certainty that come with a hereditary title that leads to corruption. Its why Jon was always a better option to rule, he had never had that complex.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1863 on: May 20, 2019, 03:53:36 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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This ended up making no sense on so many levels.

First of all, what the hell happened to Dany? She went from sacrificing her own ambitions to the throne by helping to save the North all the way to apparently not caring who she killed in order to achieve power. In like three episodes. her entire character arc this season was so rushed, so nonsensical, that I just couldn't believe it was happening.

Also, so nobody was gonna bring up that Jon is the rightful king? After all the build up on his lineage we get nothing? Him being Aegon was just a lot device to help drive Dany mad? Thats literally the only purpose it served since he didn't get the throne  the night king kill.

Also, so many problems with Bran being King. he went from "I can't be Lord of Winterfell" to "I came here to be king" in like three episodes. Then at the small council meeting he peace out in like three minutes. Also,  there is no way a cripple non-human psychic is getting elected king. Also, even if he was that is gonna lead to civil war, again, because there is no way the 6 kingdoms are staying together after he allowed the North to leave. Its such a stupid, contrived ending.

I m happy Jon Snow got to join the Wildlings, as Tormund said the real north was in him. But it also kind of resolves nothing. After all the unsullied left and Jon is still the rightful king. So whats stopping anybody from just saying "LOL, Jon is pardoned and now king." It would have made more sense if it had been his decision. IE "I can't be king, I killed my queen. I go into exile."

In the end if there was one lesson, its that the most dangerous thing a ruler can posses is absolute certainty. That was really Dany's downfall. She was able and willing to do horrible things because she believed, without a doubt, that what she was doing was right. The ends justified the means. It was her decision, and no one elses. The scene with her and Jon juxtaposed that nicely, where he says "How do you know (what is good/right)" and she answered basically because it was her right to decide. Thats was the moment where Jon realized she was too far gone. So he made his own decision and ended her, but even after that he asks "How do I know I did the right thing, it doesn't feel right." Dany's sense f certainty corrupted her, and thats why Tyrion said Kings should no longer be born but made. It is the sense of certainty that come with a hereditary title that leads to corruption. Its why Jon was always a better option to rule, he had never had that complex.

All the things you said are true... and it also weirdly sets up the series to come back in like 10 years if they want to cash grab some poorly written sequels...

There's basically no armies left to defend Kings Landing.  There's really no reason why all the other Kingdoms would just be cool with the North being independent and not them.  Jon remains the rightful heir to the throne. 

I guess the only thing stopping an all out war of 7 kingdoms as they all fight for power - is that Bran is a wizard. 

Fun show, but super unsatisfying ending to everything.  The writers completely dropped the ball with Bran.  The writers did the Jon Snow character dirty by not making his ultimate fate his own choice.  Really poorly handled all around and deserving of the widespread hate it's getting.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 04:10:21 AM by LarBrd33 »

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1864 on: May 20, 2019, 06:17:49 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I liked the ending because it needed to be put down at that point.  I am glad it is over.  Go team Stark!  It is clear they rode this horse, until it died.  I am really fearful for the Star Wars that David Benioff and D.B. Weiss will ruin it because it is painfully clear that if they do not have source material to work they are pretty weak.

https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-creators-get-next-star-wars-film-and-not-everyones-happy/

Quote
This ended up making no sense on so many levels.

Once, they got ahead of the books it stopped making sense.   People are more upset that they did not get "their ending"  and  we see this is all kinds of stuff today and even in politics.

I thought this episode was one of the better ones of season eight, but that does not mean I think season eight was good.  They wrapped up a bunch of stuff in the finale.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 06:40:24 AM by Celtics4ever »

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1865 on: May 20, 2019, 07:21:36 AM »

Offline Redz

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Meh

Back to bingeing Sneaky Pete
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1866 on: May 20, 2019, 07:56:46 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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While last night wasn't the worst of this season, it was still pretty bad in my opinion.  I think they only episode I would consider good from this season was episode two, and most of what that episode built up wasn't falled through on.

Anyway, some issues from last night:

1.  Jon's decision itself seemed odd.  Up until right before he stabs Dany, he was arguing that he owed her her loyalty.  His portrayal wasn't necessarily as conflicted, it was "I don't like it, but she's the queen".  In the span of minutes, he decides to commit regicide.  It just fits with the theme of characters having sudden changes of heart this season.

2.  Same thing with Dany.  She's mad, remember?  Paranoid, blood-thirsty.  She just gave a speech getting her army fired up for more war.  And, at this point, she's got two potential enemies:  the Starks, and Jon, her rival to the throne.  So what's she do?  She meets with Jon without any guards, and starts making out with him after he just expresses his horror at the dead kids she burnt to death.  Dany had been suspicious of Jon previously, and since then, her two closest advisors betrayed her.  But all of Dany's paranoia goes away because... the plot needed it to?

3.  All of the build up about Jon's true identity don't matter at all.  In the end, Dany trusted him despite being a rival.  Afterward, nobody acknowledges -- or even brings up -- his rightful claim to the throne.  Nobody proposes him as the potential king.  Nobody labels Dany an usurper, and tries to make the case that Jon was justified.  And, he doesn't get to decide his own fate (even if it's a fate he was probably okay with).

4.  The politics of it all are silly.  The North declares itself independent.  Nobody even raises an argument.  Sansa has committed treason / open rebellion, and it's all good.  Meanwhile, Yara Greyjoy -- an ally of Dany's -- happily remains quiet, despite the Iron Islands also having a fierce independent streak?  She's just good with the plan?  That entire scene was weird, being used partially as comic relief (I think?)  And Greyworm threatens the use of his army if justice isn't done.  That justice is Tyrion and Jon both living, and Jon's brother becoming King while Tyrion becomes hand?  Huh? 

5.  Bran goes from weirdo who can't speak in non-cryptic sentences to a fairly normal guy in a wheelchair?  And he all of a sudden is cool with the 3-eyed Raven leading human affairs?  As a maker of history, rather than an observer?  And all the other Lords are okay with this, without even thinking about it?  The guy has no resume at all, other than being the last male Stark.  Every time he could have helped, he was completely useless.  In one of the final scenes, he suggests that he may be able to warg into the missing dragon.  Really?  That may have been a helpful skill in the Battle of Winterfell, or in preventing the genocide of King's Landing.  But nope.

In the end, eight years of the show ended up essentially meaningless.  Most shows do, but GOT was grander than that for a long time.


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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1867 on: May 20, 2019, 08:39:48 AM »

Offline RLewis35

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Once, they got ahead of the books it stopped making sense.   People are more upset that they did not get "their ending"  and  we see this is all kinds of stuff today and even in politics.


I actually don’t agree with this.  Season 6 was one of the best in my opinion and that was all non-source material.  The hold the door episode, battle of the Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again.s, winds of winter were all excellent and a few more were really good.  Maybe it’s because the character development was already built in for them for this season but it was def all new material. 

I heard they didn’t really want to do more seasons and the shorter seasons for these two was the compromise.  If so it would seem more like their heart wasn’t in it and they were focusing on other projects...

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1868 on: May 20, 2019, 08:44:58 AM »

Offline JBcat

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I really thought Arya would be the one killing Dany because of that whole bit with 3 sets of different colored eyes. 

Like Roy said lots of parts scratching my head.  That whole scene deciding who should be king just seemed awkward.  Tyrion made it at least a little more enjoyable to watch. 

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1869 on: May 20, 2019, 08:50:15 AM »

Offline CelticsPoetry

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I liked the ending because it needed to be put down at that point.  I am glad it is over.  Go team Stark!  It is clear they rode this horse, until it died.  I am really fearful for the Star Wars that David Benioff and D.B. Weiss will ruin it because it is painfully clear that if they do not have source material to work they are pretty weak.

https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-creators-get-next-star-wars-film-and-not-everyones-happy/

Quote
This ended up making no sense on so many levels.

Once, they got ahead of the books it stopped making sense.   People are more upset that they did not get "their ending"  and  we see this is all kinds of stuff today and even in politics.

I thought this episode was one of the better ones of season eight, but that does not mean I think season eight was good.  They wrapped up a bunch of stuff in the finale.
Star Wars has already been ruined

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1870 on: May 20, 2019, 08:56:54 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I didn't mind the first part of the episode.  Even Jon killing Dany made a great deal of sense to me.  Her words mimicked Tyrion's to Jon and it was at that moment that Jon knew Dany was never going to change.  He wanted her to show regret or remorse for killing innocents, but she saw nothing wrong with it and in that moment he knew Tyrion was right.  I'm honestly a bit surprised Jon just didn't climb up on Drogon and leave with him and Dany's body.  I think that would have made at least a decent amount of the second part of the episode make far more sense (instead of the nonsense that followed).

The rest of the episode was utter garbage especially now that I've had some time to think on it.  Jon's parentage meant nothing at all.  I would be absolutely stunned if Martin ends the books in a way where Jon's parents meant nothing.  It is such an under riding theme throughout the books that it has to have more meaning than that.  The Council cow tows to a bunch of invaders (who were going to leave anyway) rather than just putting the rightful heir on the throne and the rightful heir that would have actually been a good ruler.  They then pick a northman who just lets the north leave the kingdom, even though they have basically the only army left and are by far the largest kingdom.  Utter rubbish. 
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1871 on: May 20, 2019, 09:20:56 AM »

Offline Spilling Green Dye

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I have to disagree with people that say Jon's parentage meant nothing after all.  To me the story telling was about identity.  When Jon sent ghost north and his dragon south, and the dragon ended up dying, it mirrored his loss of identify with his Targaryen side and an eventual re-connect with his Stark half.  More importantly, he was raised to believe he was a bastahd, and struggled his whole life with his identity.  Finding out his heritage gave closure (who his mother was, why his father had been so quiet about jon's monther, etc), but didn't change who he had already become as a person, nor who he wanted to be moving forward.  He had already established that, and a name won't change that.  It only gave him potential added responsibility, which we know he never wanted. 

That said, they could have done a better job with the writing of what that identity meant to others in the kingdom, and given Jon a chance to show he is as a person. 

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1872 on: May 20, 2019, 09:25:15 AM »

Offline Spilling Green Dye

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I really thought Arya would be the one killing Dany because of that whole bit with 3 sets of different colored eyes. 

Like Roy said lots of parts scratching my head.  That whole scene deciding who should be king just seemed awkward.  Tyrion made it at least a little more enjoyable to watch.

Agree, that scene was bizarre.  I have no idea why they listened to Tyrion at all, or even asked him "what should we do?"  I also don't get why Jon still had to go to the castle black since Grey Worm and the unsullied were leaving for Narth.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1873 on: May 20, 2019, 10:35:08 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I really thought Arya would be the one killing Dany because of that whole bit with 3 sets of different colored eyes. 

Between Littlefinger, Walder Frey, all the other Freys, Meryn Trant, the Waif, etc I'm sure she had green and brown eyes covered.


I have to disagree with people that say Jon's parentage meant nothing after all.  To me the story telling was about identity.  When Jon sent ghost north and his dragon south, and the dragon ended up dying, it mirrored his loss of identify with his Targaryen side and an eventual re-connect with his Stark half.  More importantly, he was raised to believe he was a bastahd, and struggled his whole life with his identity.  Finding out his heritage gave closure (who his mother was, why his father had been so quiet about jon's monther, etc), but didn't change who he had already become as a person, nor who he wanted to be moving forward.  He had already established that, and a name won't change that.  It only gave him potential added responsibility, which we know he never wanted. 

That said, they could have done a better job with the writing of what that identity meant to others in the kingdom, and given Jon a chance to show he is as a person. 

Really like this take, especially the contrast of his wolf and dragon going in different directions while he traveled from one to the other, but he just didn't seem to have any agency at choosing his identity and embracing the wild Northern aspect while turning away from the expectations of his lineage. That would've been a really interesting story to tell but it wasn't really told, it just kinda happened to him.  It's less that his parentage didn't matter so much as that it was abruptly dropped at a time when it would've been most relevant.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1874 on: May 20, 2019, 11:58:54 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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While last night wasn't the worst of this season, it was still pretty bad in my opinion.  I think they only episode I would consider good from this season was episode two, and most of what that episode built up wasn't falled through on.

Anyway, some issues from last night:

1.  Jon's decision itself seemed odd.  Up until right before he stabs Dany, he was arguing that he owed her her loyalty.  His portrayal wasn't necessarily as conflicted, it was "I don't like it, but she's the queen".  In the span of minutes, he decides to commit regicide.  It just fits with the theme of characters having sudden changes of heart this season.

2.  Same thing with Dany.  She's mad, remember?  Paranoid, blood-thirsty.  She just gave a speech getting her army fired up for more war.  And, at this point, she's got two potential enemies:  the Starks, and Jon, her rival to the throne.  So what's she do?  She meets with Jon without any guards, and starts making out with him after he just expresses his horror at the dead kids she burnt to death.  Dany had been suspicious of Jon previously, and since then, her two closest advisors betrayed her.  But all of Dany's paranoia goes away because... the plot needed it to?

3.  All of the build up about Jon's true identity don't matter at all.  In the end, Dany trusted him despite being a rival.  Afterward, nobody acknowledges -- or even brings up -- his rightful claim to the throne.  Nobody proposes him as the potential king.  Nobody labels Dany an usurper, and tries to make the case that Jon was justified.  And, he doesn't get to decide his own fate (even if it's a fate he was probably okay with).

4.  The politics of it all are silly.  The North declares itself independent.  Nobody even raises an argument.  Sansa has committed treason / open rebellion, and it's all good.  Meanwhile, Yara Greyjoy -- an ally of Dany's -- happily remains quiet, despite the Iron Islands also having a fierce independent streak?  She's just good with the plan?  That entire scene was weird, being used partially as comic relief (I think?)  And Greyworm threatens the use of his army if justice isn't done.  That justice is Tyrion and Jon both living, and Jon's brother becoming King while Tyrion becomes hand?  Huh? 

5.  Bran goes from weirdo who can't speak in non-cryptic sentences to a fairly normal guy in a wheelchair?  And he all of a sudden is cool with the 3-eyed Raven leading human affairs?  As a maker of history, rather than an observer?  And all the other Lords are okay with this, without even thinking about it?  The guy has no resume at all, other than being the last male Stark.  Every time he could have helped, he was completely useless.  In one of the final scenes, he suggests that he may be able to warg into the missing dragon.  Really?  That may have been a helpful skill in the Battle of Winterfell, or in preventing the genocide of King's Landing.  But nope.

In the end, eight years of the show ended up essentially meaningless.  Most shows do, but GOT was grander than that for a long time.
you nailed it