CelticsStrong

Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: otherdave on July 18, 2018, 09:24:58 PM

Title: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: otherdave on July 18, 2018, 09:24:58 PM
C's close to signing Marcus Smart to a fair priced long term contract. Assuming C's want to remain under lux tax threshold one last season (maybe they don't care, but lets assume they do), something/someone has to give, and that someone is probably Morris.

I think there are still four teams with enough cap space to absorb Morris's 5,375,000 contract (thus C's take no salary back, just a trade exception, I think?), but C's will have to also give up a 2nd round pick and maybe some cash as well to get other team to play ball.

Another option would be for the C's to waive, then stretch Morris's contract over 3 years.  This path could also get C's under the tax while keeping a future 2nd rd pick.

Option 1:  part with 2nd rd pick and maybe some cash

Option 2:  pay full 5,375,000 salary, but keep the 2nd rd pick

If the goal is to stay under the luxury tax threshold, which option do you prefer?



A side note:  all of the lux tax computations happen at the end of the season, so Morris could be traded as late as the trade dealine (early/mid Feb) or waived by ??? (someone help me here)
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: hpantazo on July 18, 2018, 09:26:14 PM
Neither. We're going for banner 18, we keep Morris and all the depth and versatility we can get.

Ainge and ownership have already said several times they are ready to pay the luxury tax to win.

Morris provides versatility, is a solid defender, can get buckets in a flash off the bench, and has the toughness that you want in a bench veteran on a title team.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: Roy H. on July 18, 2018, 09:27:12 PM
Trade.  Stretching keeps money on the books this year, as well as in 2020 and 2021.

My first option would probably be to trade Yabu, though.  I don't think he's an NBA rotation player, now or in the future.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: saltlover on July 18, 2018, 09:30:23 PM
1) There are several teams with trade exceptions who could take Morris
2) Stretching a player must occur by September 1st, so you wouldn’t get any of Morris’ contributions during the season this way
3) A team under the tax could get Morris by sending back a shade over $3 million in salary, so there are potentially other options to move a couple million of salary in getting rid of Morris if truly needed.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: PAOBoston on July 18, 2018, 09:34:14 PM
Better to just keep. He's a good bench player and brings a sense of bully/toughness to the team. He's def about that life.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: mainevent on July 18, 2018, 09:38:22 PM
Trade.  Stretching keeps money on the books this year, as well as in 2020 and 2021.

My first option would probably be to trade Yabu, though.  I don't think he's an NBA rotation player, now or in the future.

This ^ Yabu is a wasted roster spot. Morris is more bark than bite but I would rather hold on to him if only for the intimidating presence he brings. When he's good he's good but when he's bad he totally sucks. Call me crazy but I still would rather play with him then against him.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: bogg on July 18, 2018, 09:45:44 PM
Another option would be for the C's to waive, then stretch Morris's contract over 3 years.  This path could also get C's under the tax while keeping a future 2nd rd pick.


Stop. There's zero chance Morris is waived and stretched this season. There are multiple aspiring playoff teams he'd play a significant role on league-wide if Boston did in fact choose that particular mechanism of getting under the tax.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: trickybilly on July 18, 2018, 10:27:51 PM
1) There are several teams with trade exceptions who could take Morris
2) Stretching a player must occur by September 1st, so you wouldn’t get any of Morris’ contributions during the season this way
3) A team under the tax could get Morris by sending back a shade over $3 million in salary, so there are potentially other options to move a couple million of salary in getting rid of Morris if truly needed.

How does that work? Isn't that still just using a Traded Player Exception? I am looking at Larry Coon's section describing the differences between Simultaneous and Non-Simultaneous transactions. Are both those options in play?
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: saltlover on July 18, 2018, 10:32:10 PM
1) There are several teams with trade exceptions who could take Morris
2) Stretching a player must occur by September 1st, so you wouldn’t get any of Morris’ contributions during the season this way
3) A team under the tax could get Morris by sending back a shade over $3 million in salary, so there are potentially other options to move a couple million of salary in getting rid of Morris if truly needed.

How does that work? Isn't that still just using a Traded Player Exception? I am looking at Larry Coon's section describing the differences between Simultaneous and Non-Simultaneous transactions. Are both those options in play?

Yeah, that’s the traded player exception in a simultaneous trade, or what we normally just call “matching salaries” in a trade.  You don’t have to match exactly.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: gouki88 on July 19, 2018, 12:08:45 AM
Neither.... we need all the depth we can muster, and having a good scoring wing who can hold his own defensively against the better wings in the league off the bench is a massive plus.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: droopdog7 on July 19, 2018, 09:51:50 AM
An important question here is, how much would we need to shed if smart signs for say, 12 million this year?  I was thinking it would be about 5 mil, which means stretching or Yabusele wouldn’t get it done.

Second, to answer the OP’s original point, no, we cannot simply cut someone to shed salary.  In that case, we would shed zero salary.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: Jvalin on July 19, 2018, 10:01:48 AM
It's only logical to assume that Morris has value around the league. No need to stretch him when we can trade him.

There are rumors that Smart's new contract could be frontloaded and decline year to year. If this is the case, I bet Morris will be traded for salary relief + minor asset.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: jay on July 19, 2018, 10:08:42 AM
Could trade Morris to Grizzlies for Wayne Selden and Andrew Harrison and save $2.285 million.

Could trade Morris and Yabusele to Grizzlies for Jarell Martin, Wayne Selden, and Andrew Harrison and save $2.548 million.


Then I'm assuming they could attach either Harrison or Selden to a 2nd round pick and try to get someone to take them off our hands?

Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: saltlover on July 19, 2018, 10:10:03 AM
Could trade Morris to Grizzlies for Wayne Selden and Andrew Harrison and save $2.285 million.

Could trade Morris and Yabusele to Grizzlies for Jarell Martin, Wayne Selden, and Andrew Harrison and save $2.548 million.


Then I'm assuming they could attach either Harrison or Selden to a 2nd round pick and try to get someone to take them off our hands?

All of these would push the Grizzlies above the tax, so they’re a no-go.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: Birdman on July 19, 2018, 10:18:59 AM
Keep him..never know bout injuries during course of the year
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: CF033 on July 19, 2018, 10:44:31 AM
I'm on the fence about him, I like the toughness but I'm not crazy about his offensive game. He often turns into a black hole on offense and doesn't really fit in with the Celt's offensive scheme at times. There are just too many times when he touches the ball where you know he's going to put a shot up whether it's a horrible option or not.

Edit: As I submitted this I realized that I'm currently showing as Marcus Morris in the forum lol.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: GreenShooter on July 19, 2018, 10:46:16 AM
I think shedding Yabusele's contract would be my first option, as already mentioned. He'll have to go eventually. I didn't see enough from him in the summer league to think he'll be as good as Semi or as a replacement for Morris once he's gone after this season.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: spikelovetheCelts on July 19, 2018, 10:46:19 AM
The tax does not happen until the trade deadline We can still get under by trading Yabu then.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: saltlover on July 19, 2018, 10:49:47 AM
The tax does not happen until the trade deadline We can still get under by trading Yabu then.

Yes, although Yabu is more likely to have value if we trade him prior to his option deadline of October 31st, in case the team taking him on actually wants to give him a chance to develop.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: Hoopvortex on July 19, 2018, 11:10:32 AM
I'm on the fence about him, I like the toughness but I'm not crazy about his offensive game. He often turns into a black hole on offense and doesn't really fit in with the Celt's offensive scheme at times. There are just too many times when he touches the ball where you know he's going to put a shot up whether it's a horrible option or not.

Edit: As I submitted this I realized that I'm currently showing as Marcus Morris in the forum lol.

... ain't karma a ****?

(that's a five-letter word beginning with b)
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: droopdog7 on July 19, 2018, 11:27:57 AM
Let me ask again, does anyone know the projected number the team is trying to be under to avoid setting the repeater tax clock?  The team's current salary is $108,230,008 not counting marcus smart at all.  A starting salary around 12 mil would obviously take us to about 120 mil.

Edit:  these totals do not count Wanamaker either, who for some reason is listed at $0.  Not sure what his salary would be?
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: droopdog7 on July 19, 2018, 11:33:47 AM
Let me ask again, does anyone know the projected number the team is trying to be under to avoid setting the repeater tax clock?  The team's current salary is $108,230,008 not counting marcus smart at all.  A starting salary around 12 mil would obviously take us to about 120 mil.

Edit:  these totals do not count Wanamaker either, who for some reason is listed at $0.  Not sure what his salary would be?
Perhaps I answered my own question.  According to this article the number would be $123.73 mil.  If that's the case, assuming the other numbers are accurate, we would seem to be in decent shape without having to release anyone?

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23957526/nba-sets-1019m-salary-cap-2018-19-season
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: Jvalin on July 19, 2018, 11:33:59 AM
Let me ask again, does anyone know the projected number the team is trying to be under to avoid setting the repeater tax clock?  The team's current salary is $108,230,008 not counting marcus smart at all.  A starting salary around 12 mil would obviously take us to about 120 mil.

Edit:  these totals do not count Wanamaker either, who for some reason is listed at $0.  Not sure what his salary would be?
Luxury Tax Threshold: $123,733,000
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: hwangjini_1 on July 19, 2018, 11:39:37 AM
I'm on the fence about him, I like the toughness but I'm not crazy about his offensive game. He often turns into a black hole on offense and doesn't really fit in with the Celt's offensive scheme at times. There are just too many times when he touches the ball where you know he's going to put a shot up whether it's a horrible option or not.

Edit: As I submitted this I realized that I'm currently showing as Marcus Morris in the forum lol.

... ain't karma a ****?

(that's a five-letter word beginning with b)
bases?
backs?
blitz?
bikes?
blowby?
books?
bricks?
babel?
babes?
babka?
baboo?
babul?
babus?
bacca?
backs?
bacon?
baddy?
badge?
badly?
baffs?
baffy?
bagel?
baggy?
bahts?
bails?
bairn?
baith?
baits?
baiza?
baize?
baked?
baker?
bakes?
balas?
balds?
baldy?


 ;D
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: kraidstar on July 19, 2018, 12:02:55 PM
Morris is a bargain contract. Positive value. You telling me the Blazers or Raptors wouldn't be happy to add him with their trade exceptions? They are desperate to reach the next level. There are plenty of teams that could work ways to get him, maybe even sending us a 2nd rounder in return. He is a pretty good player who is great at guarding guys like LeBron. Hiss offense can also win random playoff games. He has VALUE. And we have leverage, we could simply waive Nader and trade Yabs. The Nets etc would probably take a flyer on Yabs. No need to fleece ourselves trading Morris - a useful player with good trade matching ability BTW - in a salary dump.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: Hoopvortex on July 19, 2018, 12:15:33 PM
I'm on the fence about him, I like the toughness but I'm not crazy about his offensive game. He often turns into a black hole on offense and doesn't really fit in with the Celt's offensive scheme at times. There are just too many times when he touches the ball where you know he's going to put a shot up whether it's a horrible option or not.

Edit: As I submitted this I realized that I'm currently showing as Marcus Morris in the forum lol.

... ain't karma a ****?

(that's a five-letter word beginning with b)
bases?
backs?
blitz?
bikes?
blowby?
books?
bricks?
babel?
babes?
babka?
baboo?
babul?
babus?
bacca?
backs?
bacon?
baddy?
badge?
badly?
baffs?
baffy?
bagel?
baggy?
bahts?
bails?
bairn?
baith?
baits?
baiza?
baize?
baked?
baker?
bakes?
balas?
balds?
baldy?


 ;D

Why does Celtics Blog censor "baboo"?!

Sigh.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: droopdog7 on July 19, 2018, 12:16:34 PM
Let me ask again, does anyone know the projected number the team is trying to be under to avoid setting the repeater tax clock?  The team's current salary is $108,230,008 not counting marcus smart at all.  A starting salary around 12 mil would obviously take us to about 120 mil.

Edit:  these totals do not count Wanamaker either, who for some reason is listed at $0.  Not sure what his salary would be?
Luxury Tax Threshold: $123,733,000
Thanks.  So can someone explain why many predict that the Celts will definitely be over the luxury tax if we sign Marcus?  I found out that Wanamaker would only be making a little over 800k so that should leave about 14.5 mil for marcus this year.

Clearly I am missing something?
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: mef730 on July 19, 2018, 12:24:13 PM
I'm on the fence about him, I like the toughness but I'm not crazy about his offensive game. He often turns into a black hole on offense and doesn't really fit in with the Celt's offensive scheme at times. There are just too many times when he touches the ball where you know he's going to put a shot up whether it's a horrible option or not.

Edit: As I submitted this I realized that I'm currently showing as Marcus Morris in the forum lol.

... ain't karma a ****?

(that's a five-letter word beginning with b)
bases?
backs?
blitz?
bikes?
blowby?
books?
bricks?
babel?
babes?
babka?
baboo?
babul?
babus?
bacca?
backs?
bacon?
baddy?
badge?
badly?
baffs?
baffy?
bagel?
baggy?
bahts?
bails?
bairn?
baith?
baits?
baiza?
baize?
baked?
baker?
bakes?
balas?
balds?
baldy?


 ;D

Apparently, I've been demoted to second on "list of CBers with too much free time on their hands."

:)

Mike
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: otherdave on July 19, 2018, 12:54:59 PM
Let me ask again, does anyone know the projected number the team is trying to be under to avoid setting the repeater tax clock?  The team's current salary is $108,230,008 not counting marcus smart at all.  A starting salary around 12 mil would obviously take us to about 120 mil.

Edit:  these totals do not count Wanamaker either, who for some reason is listed at $0.  Not sure what his salary would be?
Luxury Tax Threshold: $123,733,000
Thanks.  So can someone explain why many predict that the Celts will definitely be over the luxury tax if we sign Marcus?  I found out that Wanamaker would only be making a little over 800k so that should leave about 14.5 mil for marcus this year.

Clearly I am missing something?

Although Brad W and Daniel T are actually being paid $838,464 and 1,378,242, they both count as 1,512,601 for LUXURY TAX calculations (different than salary cap calculations).  Also are you remembering to count 92,857 for D Jackson's dead money?

Are you keeping Nader at 1,378,242 or waiving him at a cost of 450,000 and signing J Bird with a lux tax cost of 1,512,601 (actual salary would be smaller)?

Hope this helps a little.....
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: jay on July 19, 2018, 12:56:13 PM
https://twitter.com/dangercart/status/1019981130815168512

If the Celtics are $3.8 million over the tax line and if they want to get under, then Morris would have to be traded with no salary coming back correct?

Then fill the 15th spot with Bird?  It makes sense for two reasons: why not avoid the tax for one more year, and where will the minutes be for Morris anyway?
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: Vermont Green on July 19, 2018, 12:59:26 PM
Let me ask again, does anyone know the projected number the team is trying to be under to avoid setting the repeater tax clock?  The team's current salary is $108,230,008 not counting marcus smart at all.  A starting salary around 12 mil would obviously take us to about 120 mil.

Edit:  these totals do not count Wanamaker either, who for some reason is listed at $0.  Not sure what his salary would be?
Luxury Tax Threshold: $123,733,000
Thanks.  So can someone explain why many predict that the Celts will definitely be over the luxury tax if we sign Marcus?  I found out that Wanamaker would only be making a little over 800k so that should leave about 14.5 mil for marcus this year.

Clearly I am missing something?

Not sure what you are looking at or missing but based on data on Spotrac, the Celtics are at $126,720,019 with Smart at $11,607,143 and Wanamaker at $831,311.  That a little less than $3M over the tax line.

Nader is only partially guaranteed.  I think they plan to pay the tax.  I don't think they will give Morris away just to not pay the tax.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/ (https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/)
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on July 19, 2018, 01:04:56 PM
Let me ask again, does anyone know the projected number the team is trying to be under to avoid setting the repeater tax clock?  The team's current salary is $108,230,008 not counting marcus smart at all.  A starting salary around 12 mil would obviously take us to about 120 mil.

Edit:  these totals do not count Wanamaker either, who for some reason is listed at $0.  Not sure what his salary would be?
Luxury Tax Threshold: $123,733,000
Thanks.  So can someone explain why many predict that the Celts will definitely be over the luxury tax if we sign Marcus?  I found out that Wanamaker would only be making a little over 800k so that should leave about 14.5 mil for marcus this year.

Clearly I am missing something?

Not sure what you are looking at or missing but based on data on Spotrac, the Celtics are at $126,720,019 with Smart at $11,607,143 and Wanamaker at $831,311.  That a little less than $3M over the tax line.

Nader is only partially guaranteed.  I think they plan to pay the tax.  I don't think they will give Morris away just to not pay the tax.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/ (https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/)

We'll see what they want to do. They could lock Bird into a contract similar to Ojeleye that is long, but non-guaranteed. This gives Bird a team and gives the Celtics roster flexibility.

If they did that, trading away Morris still gets them under the tax, which is a good place to be for the Celtics as they stare down the repeater tax in coming years.

Ojeleye and Theis offer similar defense and outside shooting. Morris is well-suited to be a 5-7th man, but on this team, he is the 9th. Ojeleye and Theis are better 9th and 10th men.

Morris just doesn't fill a position of need for this team moving forward. I would like to keep him, but it really makes sense to get under the tax by trading him.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: cman88 on July 19, 2018, 01:07:13 PM
If we are going for a championship this year, you keep him. Who really can give us what he does right now as a PF off the bench? Also another body to throw at Durant in a potential Warriors/Celtics finals.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: droopdog7 on July 19, 2018, 01:42:53 PM
Let me ask again, does anyone know the projected number the team is trying to be under to avoid setting the repeater tax clock?  The team's current salary is $108,230,008 not counting marcus smart at all.  A starting salary around 12 mil would obviously take us to about 120 mil.

Edit:  these totals do not count Wanamaker either, who for some reason is listed at $0.  Not sure what his salary would be?
Luxury Tax Threshold: $123,733,000
Thanks.  So can someone explain why many predict that the Celts will definitely be over the luxury tax if we sign Marcus?  I found out that Wanamaker would only be making a little over 800k so that should leave about 14.5 mil for marcus this year.

Clearly I am missing something?

Not sure what you are looking at or missing but based on data on Spotrac, the Celtics are at $126,720,019 with Smart at $11,607,143 and Wanamaker at $831,311.  That a little less than $3M over the tax line.

Nader is only partially guaranteed.  I think they plan to pay the tax.  I don't think they will give Morris away just to not pay the tax.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/ (https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/)
Thanks, I've been using hoops hype, which is the first one I came across.  Aside from a slight difference on Tatums's salary, the individual salaries just about match up. 

But I figured out the issue.  While the hoops hype page says the payroll is $114,283,726, they actually add up to $120,337,444 (using smarts 6 mil cap hold). 

So yeah, we'll be at about 126 mil with smarts contract.  And by the way, has the 11 mil been reported already?

https://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston_celtics/
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: droopdog7 on July 19, 2018, 01:44:28 PM
If we are going for a championship this year, you keep him. Who really can give us what he does right now as a PF off the bench? Also another body to throw at Durant in a potential Warriors/Celtics finals.
Theis?
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on July 19, 2018, 01:51:27 PM
If we are going for a championship this year, you keep him. Who really can give us what he does right now as a PF off the bench? Also another body to throw at Durant in a potential Warriors/Celtics finals.
Theis?

Semi?

Hayward?

Brown?

Tatum?

Smart?

Horford?

How many do we need?
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: droopdog7 on July 19, 2018, 01:53:27 PM
If we are going for a championship this year, you keep him. Who really can give us what he does right now as a PF off the bench? Also another body to throw at Durant in a potential Warriors/Celtics finals.
Theis?

Semi?

Hayward?

Brown?

Tatum?

Smart?

How many do we need?
Touche.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: saltlover on July 19, 2018, 01:53:29 PM
If we are going for a championship this year, you keep him. Who really can give us what he does right now as a PF off the bench? Also another body to throw at Durant in a potential Warriors/Celtics finals.
Theis?

Semi?

Hayward?

Brown?

Tatum?

Smart?

How many do we need?

After all the injuries of last year, is this really a question?  We need all of them.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: blink on July 19, 2018, 01:55:41 PM
Let me ask again, does anyone know the projected number the team is trying to be under to avoid setting the repeater tax clock?  The team's current salary is $108,230,008 not counting marcus smart at all.  A starting salary around 12 mil would obviously take us to about 120 mil.

Edit:  these totals do not count Wanamaker either, who for some reason is listed at $0.  Not sure what his salary would be?
Luxury Tax Threshold: $123,733,000
Thanks.  So can someone explain why many predict that the Celts will definitely be over the luxury tax if we sign Marcus?  I found out that Wanamaker would only be making a little over 800k so that should leave about 14.5 mil for marcus this year.

Clearly I am missing something?

Not sure what you are looking at or missing but based on data on Spotrac, the Celtics are at $126,720,019 with Smart at $11,607,143 and Wanamaker at $831,311.  That a little less than $3M over the tax line.

Nader is only partially guaranteed.  I think they plan to pay the tax.  I don't think they will give Morris away just to not pay the tax.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/ (https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/)

I agree.  I think the C's are prepared to pay the tax.  Unless Morris becomes a locker room problem because of minutes I don't see why you get rid of him.  Yeah he took a lot of bad iso shots in the playoffs last year, but guess what with KI and GH back he won't have to do that.  As a bench vet that can hit shots and play tough def and has playoff experience I def want to keep Morris unless he starts complaining about PT.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: blink on July 19, 2018, 01:57:08 PM
If we are going for a championship this year, you keep him. Who really can give us what he does right now as a PF off the bench? Also another body to throw at Durant in a potential Warriors/Celtics finals.
Theis?

Semi?

Hayward?

Brown?

Tatum?

Smart?

How many do we need?

After all the injuries of last year, is this really a question?  We need all of them.

This is the safe answer.  I hope we don't trade Morris.  If management is ok with paying the tax, I certainly don't have a problem with it.  It feels like DA truly believes we have a contending team this year.  Lets roll everyone back and see how far we get.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: rondofan1255 on July 19, 2018, 02:05:51 PM
rather stretch Nader and trade Yabusele for cap space
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: tonydelk on July 19, 2018, 02:27:39 PM
Trade.  It's not like no one would want a tough vet who can score off the bench that only will cost 5m.  He's an asset not a liability.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: SparzWizard on July 19, 2018, 02:34:59 PM
If we are going for a championship this year, you keep him. Who really can give us what he does right now as a PF off the bench? Also another body to throw at Durant in a potential Warriors/Celtics finals.
Theis?

Semi?

Hayward?

Brown?

Tatum?

Smart?

How many do we need?

After all the injuries of last year, is this really a question?  We need all of them.

This is the safe answer.  I hope we don't trade Morris.  If management is ok with paying the tax, I certainly don't have a problem with it.  It feels like DA truly believes we have a contending team this year.  Lets roll everyone back and see how far we get.

To win championships these days, you need at least 3-superstars and 1 all-star. But now the Warriors obtained another superstar for cheap. So now you need 4 superstars and 1 all-star caliber player. The Celtics should probably add one or two more superstars to team up with Kyrie and Hayward.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: JHTruth on July 19, 2018, 02:38:00 PM
Morris isn't that great. His defense is pretty bad and his offense comes and goes. You could find a player like him pretty easily at any time.

That being said, he's a familiar face in the locker room, he knows the system and teammates, might as well keep him around.

I think it's more likely he'll force his way out if anything. He's going to see a huge reduction in minutes in a contract year..
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: otherdave on July 19, 2018, 02:39:44 PM
rather stretch Nader and trade Yabusele for cap space

Pretty sure that this does not get C's under the luxury tax threshold.  Remember Theis and Wanamaker count 1.5 mil each.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: AshyLarry on July 19, 2018, 02:47:24 PM
Trade him to wiz show for Meeks or oubre or sataransky so he can play wif bruv and totally keep helping their locker room chemistry grow.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: droopdog7 on July 19, 2018, 03:19:30 PM
One other point to think about.  If the math is correct, shedding Rozier's salary would also get the team under the luxury tax line.  Hmm?

Of course, in this case the team would not give Rozier away but could maybe get a pick in return (rather than attaching a pick to shed others).
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on July 19, 2018, 03:41:13 PM
One other point to think about.  If the math is correct, shedding Rozier's salary would also get the team under the luxury tax line.  Hmm?

Of course, in this case the team would not give Rozier away but could maybe get a pick in return (rather than attaching a pick to shed others).

That was, an interesting thought. I think Ainge is willing to pay the tax unless wowed with an offer.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: Geo123 on July 19, 2018, 03:45:03 PM
Neither. We're going for banner 18, we keep Morris and all the depth and versatility we can get.

Ainge and ownership have already said several times they are ready to pay the luxury tax to win.

Morris provides versatility, is a solid defender, can get buckets in a flash off the bench, and has the toughness that you want in a bench veteran on a title team.

I agree....
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: GreenEnvy on July 19, 2018, 03:52:40 PM
I, unlike many internet GM’s, don’t believe a team trying to win a championship should just dump a starting-caliber role player for nothing just to get under the tax. I rather have him ride pine all playoffs than have to turn to Semi or Yabu in a big spot.


If we stretch Nader, we are still about $1.67M above the tax for 14 players, not including Bird.

Salary dumping Yabu would get us below, but I’m not sure what Bird’s number would be (under $1M keeps us under the tax), again for 14 players with zero salary to do anything during the season.

My guess is we stay put and become taxpayers, even for such a small amount. Then we have the $5.3M to play with during the season.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: droopdog7 on July 19, 2018, 05:40:25 PM
I, unlike many internet GM’s, don’t believe a team trying to win a championship should just dump a starting-caliber role player for nothing just to get under the tax. I rather have him ride pine all playoffs than have to turn to Semi or Yabu in a big spot.


If we stretch Nader, we are still about $1.67M above the tax for 14 players, not including Bird.

Salary dumping Yabu would get us below, but I’m not sure what Bird’s number would be (under $1M keeps us under the tax), again for 14 players with zero salary to do anything during the season.

My guess is we stay put and become taxpayers, even for such a small amount. Then we have the $5.3M to play with during the season.
This is part of the issue actually.  Seems a shame to start the repeater clock (which is what we want to avoid more than the actual tax this year) for such a small amount.  Oddly, if we were way over then we might not be having this discussion.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: saltlover on July 19, 2018, 05:43:53 PM
I, unlike many internet GM’s, don’t believe a team trying to win a championship should just dump a starting-caliber role player for nothing just to get under the tax. I rather have him ride pine all playoffs than have to turn to Semi or Yabu in a big spot.


If we stretch Nader, we are still about $1.67M above the tax for 14 players, not including Bird.

Salary dumping Yabu would get us below, but I’m not sure what Bird’s number would be (under $1M keeps us under the tax), again for 14 players with zero salary to do anything during the season.

My guess is we stay put and become taxpayers, even for such a small amount. Then we have the $5.3M to play with during the season.
This is part of the issue actually.  Seems a shame to start the repeater clock (which is what we want to avoid more than the actual tax this year) for such a small amount.  Oddly, if we were way over then we might not be having this discussion.

While certainly it would be ideal to not be a tax team this year, it’s more ideal to put the best possible team forward when a legitimate title contender.  If the tax is the price, and thus the repeater clock, so be it.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: droopdog7 on July 19, 2018, 06:21:24 PM
I, unlike many internet GM’s, don’t believe a team trying to win a championship should just dump a starting-caliber role player for nothing just to get under the tax. I rather have him ride pine all playoffs than have to turn to Semi or Yabu in a big spot.


If we stretch Nader, we are still about $1.67M above the tax for 14 players, not including Bird.

Salary dumping Yabu would get us below, but I’m not sure what Bird’s number would be (under $1M keeps us under the tax), again for 14 players with zero salary to do anything during the season.

My guess is we stay put and become taxpayers, even for such a small amount. Then we have the $5.3M to play with during the season.
This is part of the issue actually.  Seems a shame to start the repeater clock (which is what we want to avoid more than the actual tax this year) for such a small amount.  Oddly, if we were way over then we might not be having this discussion.

While certainly it would be ideal to not be a tax team this year, it’s more ideal to put the best possible team forward when a legitimate title contender.  If the tax is the price, and thus the repeater clock, so be it.
Sure.  But it comes down to the role that morris will play and what ramifications this will have once/if the repeater tax begins.  I might rather lose morris now to retain more flexibility in the future for what might be bigger questions.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: keevsnick on July 19, 2018, 06:50:31 PM
I, unlike many internet GM’s, don’t believe a team trying to win a championship should just dump a starting-caliber role player for nothing just to get under the tax. I rather have him ride pine all playoffs than have to turn to Semi or Yabu in a big spot.


If we stretch Nader, we are still about $1.67M above the tax for 14 players, not including Bird.

Salary dumping Yabu would get us below, but I’m not sure what Bird’s number would be (under $1M keeps us under the tax), again for 14 players with zero salary to do anything during the season.

My guess is we stay put and become taxpayers, even for such a small amount. Then we have the $5.3M to play with during the season.
This is part of the issue actually.  Seems a shame to start the repeater clock (which is what we want to avoid more than the actual tax this year) for such a small amount.  Oddly, if we were way over then we might not be having this discussion.

While certainly it would be ideal to not be a tax team this year, it’s more ideal to put the best possible team forward when a legitimate title contender.  If the tax is the price, and thus the repeater clock, so be it.

I've seen this point made by several people and in this case I do not think its the right way to approach this. First of all this team is gonna be good for a long time if we play it right, and to keep it together will require that repeater tax. So its not just the small payment this year thats the problem, its the fact you have to pay the higher rate a year earlier when you will likely be very expensive potentially result in 10's of millions of extra tax. Now if the owner shop is okay with that, then fine. But im skeptical, a historic tax payment which is possible is historic  because it almost never happens. And before everybody says "owner shipping says they will pay" I get it, but pay and pay HUGE are different. If you can get under it makes too.much business sense not to.

And thats before you in factor in other things like playing time, a more limited role, not enough ball to go around and I think it makes even more sense to trade Morris. On top of all that, I think he is massively overated. This team was overall worse with him on the floor last year, his defense comes and goes, his offense is in efficient and he NEVER PASSES THE BALL. Even the idea of him as insurance is overated, because if injuries happen and you reach the point where Morris is a crítical part of your team next year, you arent winning it all.

Now that doesnt mean you have to trade him now. You can wait and see how the team is going before deciding. Maybe Semi steps up and makes him expendable. Maybe the rotation shakes out such that he doesnt get a lot of playing time and you just dont need him. Maybe injuries happen and Ainge decides he does need him. But I think trading Morris is an obvious move.

Of course I am often wrong.
 
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: JHTruth on July 19, 2018, 07:02:50 PM
I, unlike many internet GM’s, don’t believe a team trying to win a championship should just dump a starting-caliber role player for nothing just to get under the tax. I rather have him ride pine all playoffs than have to turn to Semi or Yabu in a big spot.


If we stretch Nader, we are still about $1.67M above the tax for 14 players, not including Bird.

Salary dumping Yabu would get us below, but I’m not sure what Bird’s number would be (under $1M keeps us under the tax), again for 14 players with zero salary to do anything during the season.

My guess is we stay put and become taxpayers, even for such a small amount. Then we have the $5.3M to play with during the season.

He's not really a starter-caliber guy. He was forced into that role by injuries last year but his defense stinks most of the time and his offense is hit or miss.

I get liking his tude or whatever but as a player he is utterly replaceable..
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: 86MaxwellSmart on July 19, 2018, 07:19:17 PM
Morris has a lot of value for this team's toughness and scoring...Yabu and Nader Both can go--they are pretty useless.

There will be injuries, and we'll be glad Danny didn't get rid of him.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: Hoopvortex on July 19, 2018, 09:30:06 PM
I, unlike many internet GM’s, don’t believe a team trying to win a championship should just dump a starting-caliber role player for nothing just to get under the tax. I rather have him ride pine all playoffs than have to turn to Semi or Yabu in a big spot.


If we stretch Nader, we are still about $1.67M above the tax for 14 players, not including Bird.

Salary dumping Yabu would get us below, but I’m not sure what Bird’s number would be (under $1M keeps us under the tax), again for 14 players with zero salary to do anything during the season.

My guess is we stay put and become taxpayers, even for such a small amount. Then we have the $5.3M to play with during the season.
This is part of the issue actually.  Seems a shame to start the repeater clock (which is what we want to avoid more than the actual tax this year) for such a small amount.  Oddly, if we were way over then we might not be having this discussion.

While certainly it would be ideal to not be a tax team this year, it’s more ideal to put the best possible team forward when a legitimate title contender.  If the tax is the price, and thus the repeater clock, so be it.

I've seen this point made by several people and in this case I do not think its the right way to approach this. First of all this team is gonna be good for a long time if we play it right, and to keep it together will require that repeater tax. So its not just the small payment this year thats the problem, its the fact you have to pay the higher rate a year earlier when you will likely be very expensive potentially result in 10's of millions of extra tax. Now if the owner shop is okay with that, then fine. But im skeptical, a historic tax payment which is possible is historic  because it almost never happens. And before everybody says "owner shipping says they will pay" I get it, but pay and pay HUGE are different. If you can get under it makes too.much business sense not to.

And thats before you in factor in other things like playing time, a more limited role, not enough ball to go around and I think it makes even more sense to trade Morris. On top of all that, I think he is massively overated. This team was overall worse with him on the floor last year, his defense comes and goes, his offense is in efficient and he NEVER PASSES THE BALL. Even the idea of him as insurance is overated, because if injuries happen and you reach the point where Morris is a crítical part of your team next year, you arent winning it all.

Now that doesnt mean you have to trade him now. You can wait and see how the team is going before deciding. Maybe Semi steps up and makes him expendable. Maybe the rotation shakes out such that he doesnt get a lot of playing time and you just dont need him. Maybe injuries happen and Ainge decides he does need him. But I think trading Morris is an obvious move.

Of course I am often wrong.

I think your criticisms are valid, especially his lack of passing.

But there are some mitigating factors.

It was a “tale of two seasons” for him. He was a better player after he returned the second time, including on defense, and particularly his post game and finishing were more effective.

Also, he has a couple of strengths that fans miss. He gets to the line at a good clip (this was a team weakness last year, so that’s a big plus), and he’s a grade-A free throw shooter; and he doesn’t pass much, but he also doesn’t turn it over much.

I don’t know how real the contract year motivation is; maybe he’s motivated by that.

I’d keep him. Long term, I’m less enthusiastic.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: nickagneta on July 19, 2018, 09:43:27 PM
TO KEEP.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: jambr380 on July 19, 2018, 10:13:49 PM
I probably have a generally higher opinion of Morris than keevsnick, but I basically agree with everything he said, so tp.

- staying under the tax is important because of the many years we will likely be in it
- if injuries get so severe that we need Morris in big minutes, we aren't winning a championship
- Hayward/Theis returning, Smart is re-signed (for attitude purposes), young guys could step up
- Morris might not be as engaged because of his role

It just doesn't make much sense at all to keep him if we are going to be over the tax by a couple of million. However, if we go out and use the MLE on another impact player and push further into the tax, then I suppose he can stay as an expiring luxury.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: Beat LA on July 19, 2018, 10:45:57 PM
TO KEEP.

Same :).
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: smokeablount on July 19, 2018, 10:55:28 PM
I think we have to get under the tax.

But I’d much rather package Yabu, Nader and a top 55 protected 2nd rounder, if that works.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: saltlover on July 20, 2018, 06:49:32 AM
I, unlike many internet GM’s, don’t believe a team trying to win a championship should just dump a starting-caliber role player for nothing just to get under the tax. I rather have him ride pine all playoffs than have to turn to Semi or Yabu in a big spot.


If we stretch Nader, we are still about $1.67M above the tax for 14 players, not including Bird.

Salary dumping Yabu would get us below, but I’m not sure what Bird’s number would be (under $1M keeps us under the tax), again for 14 players with zero salary to do anything during the season.

My guess is we stay put and become taxpayers, even for such a small amount. Then we have the $5.3M to play with during the season.
This is part of the issue actually.  Seems a shame to start the repeater clock (which is what we want to avoid more than the actual tax this year) for such a small amount.  Oddly, if we were way over then we might not be having this discussion.

While certainly it would be ideal to not be a tax team this year, it’s more ideal to put the best possible team forward when a legitimate title contender.  If the tax is the price, and thus the repeater clock, so be it.

I've seen this point made by several people and in this case I do not think its the right way to approach this. First of all this team is gonna be good for a long time if we play it right, and to keep it together will require that repeater tax. So its not just the small payment this year thats the problem, its the fact you have to pay the higher rate a year earlier when you will likely be very expensive potentially result in 10's of millions of extra tax. Now if the owner shop is okay with that, then fine. But im skeptical, a historic tax payment which is possible is historic  because it almost never happens. And before everybody says "owner shipping says they will pay" I get it, but pay and pay HUGE are different. If you can get under it makes too.much business sense not to.

And thats before you in factor in other things like playing time, a more limited role, not enough ball to go around and I think it makes even more sense to trade Morris. On top of all that, I think he is massively overated. This team was overall worse with him on the floor last year, his defense comes and goes, his offense is in efficient and he NEVER PASSES THE BALL. Even the idea of him as insurance is overated, because if injuries happen and you reach the point where Morris is a crítical part of your team next year, you arent winning it all.

Now that doesnt mean you have to trade him now. You can wait and see how the team is going before deciding. Maybe Semi steps up and makes him expendable. Maybe the rotation shakes out such that he doesnt get a lot of playing time and you just dont need him. Maybe injuries happen and Ainge decides he does need him. But I think trading Morris is an obvious move.

Of course I am often wrong.

Look, I get it.  I’m a tax hawk and started a thread about why I felt Aron Baynes wasn’t going to stick around because of the tax and that Smart would get a deal in the $12-14 million range.  I was half right.  I also am not a huge Marcus Morris fan.  I think he’s a bit of a chucker who is prone to being a malcontent.  He’s not a must-have.

But despite not being a must-have, he’s a guy we do have, and he fills a role at both ends of the court.  And especially come playoff time he could be highly useful.  If Kawhi shows up to Toronto, he’s the type of player who would be a good defender against him.  The same would potentially be true in the finals against both Durant and Draymond.  And, despite having chucking tendencies, he’s not a cipher on offense like some other options on the roster.  Even with a fully healthy roster, he’s someone who would likely see 20-25 minutes a night against potentially conference final and NBA final opponents.  If you’re seriously trying to win a title this year, as the Celtics seem to be, you don’t dump a player like Morris just to stay out of the tax.  Maybe you don’t enter the tax to acquire him, but once in the roster, you kee the status quo.

I hear the common refrain of “the repeater tax will mess things up down the road and we’re set for years.”  I get where it comes from.  But it ignores the fact that Kyrie is a free agent next summer and this could be our best shot at a title for several more seasons, not to mention that Kyrie leaving takes the tax out of play next year.  Horford is also a free agent if he chooses.  And while I’d bet on both staying, I’d feel less comfortable with that bet if we lost a tight finals in 6 or 7, and it felt like we were a piece away having dumped Morris at the break (or now) to get under the tax.  Losing a tight series after management dumped a key reserve for cost savings is not the type of taste you want in either Kyrie’s or Horford’s mouth entering free agency.

Meanwhile, the cost of the repeater tax is starting to get overstated.  Entering a year early probably costs the Celtics $15-20 million four years from now.  This is in addition to about $10 million this season (tax, some salary, and share of luxury tax revenues).  It’s not peanuts, but $25-30 million spread over a couple of years is perfectly affordable to a team that reportedly netted $100 million last year after revenue sharing.

Now it’s a something else if Morris starts grousing about playing time and is a problem in the locker room, and/or if Semi passes him on the depth chart.  If Morris is your 10th-11th man instead of your 7th-8th man, that’s a different story and you absolutely do look to move him.  Or, obviously, if he gets hurt.  But where we are today, you keep him.  The Celtics have a shot at a title.  They should take it.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: RockinRyA on July 20, 2018, 06:54:48 AM
I, unlike many internet GM’s, don’t believe a team trying to win a championship should just dump a starting-caliber role player for nothing just to get under the tax. I rather have him ride pine all playoffs than have to turn to Semi or Yabu in a big spot.


If we stretch Nader, we are still about $1.67M above the tax for 14 players, not including Bird.

Salary dumping Yabu would get us below, but I’m not sure what Bird’s number would be (under $1M keeps us under the tax), again for 14 players with zero salary to do anything during the season.

My guess is we stay put and become taxpayers, even for such a small amount. Then we have the $5.3M to play with during the season.
This is part of the issue actually.  Seems a shame to start the repeater clock (which is what we want to avoid more than the actual tax this year) for such a small amount.  Oddly, if we were way over then we might not be having this discussion.

While certainly it would be ideal to not be a tax team this year, it’s more ideal to put the best possible team forward when a legitimate title contender.  If the tax is the price, and thus the repeater clock, so be it.

I've seen this point made by several people and in this case I do not think its the right way to approach this. First of all this team is gonna be good for a long time if we play it right, and to keep it together will require that repeater tax. So its not just the small payment this year thats the problem, its the fact you have to pay the higher rate a year earlier when you will likely be very expensive potentially result in 10's of millions of extra tax. Now if the owner shop is okay with that, then fine. But im skeptical, a historic tax payment which is possible is historic  because it almost never happens. And before everybody says "owner shipping says they will pay" I get it, but pay and pay HUGE are different. If you can get under it makes too.much business sense not to.

And thats before you in factor in other things like playing time, a more limited role, not enough ball to go around and I think it makes even more sense to trade Morris. On top of all that, I think he is massively overated. This team was overall worse with him on the floor last year, his defense comes and goes, his offense is in efficient and he NEVER PASSES THE BALL. Even the idea of him as insurance is overated, because if injuries happen and you reach the point where Morris is a crítical part of your team next year, you arent winning it all.

Now that doesnt mean you have to trade him now. You can wait and see how the team is going before deciding. Maybe Semi steps up and makes him expendable. Maybe the rotation shakes out such that he doesnt get a lot of playing time and you just dont need him. Maybe injuries happen and Ainge decides he does need him. But I think trading Morris is an obvious move.

Of course I am often wrong.

Look, I get it.  I’m a tax hawk and started a thread about why I felt Aron Baynes wasn’t going to stick around because of the tax and that Smart would get a deal in the $12-14 million range.  I was half right.  I also am not a huge Marcus Morris fan.  I think he’s a bit of a chucker who is prone to being a malcontent.  He’s not a must-have.

But despite not being a must-have, he’s a guy we do have, and he fills a role at both ends of the court.  And especially come playoff time he could be highly useful.  If Kawhi shows up to Toronto, he’s the type of player who would be a good defender against him.  The same would potentially be true in the finals against both Durant and Draymond.  And, despite having chucking tendencies, he’s not a cipher on offense like some other options on the roster.  Even with a fully healthy roster, he’s someone who would likely see 20-25 minutes a night against potentially conference final and NBA final opponents.  If you’re seriously trying to win a title this year, as the Celtics seem to be, you don’t dump a player like Morris just to stay out of the tax.  Maybe you don’t enter the tax to acquire him, but once in the roster, you kee the status quo.

I hear the common refrain of “the repeater tax will mess things up down the road and we’re set for years.”  I get where it comes from.  But it ignores the fact that Kyrie is a free agent next summer and this could be our best shot at a title for several more seasons, not to mention that Kyrie leaving takes the tax out of play next year.  Horford is also a free agent if he chooses.  And while I’d bet on both staying, I’d feel less comfortable with that bet if we lost a tight finals in 6 or 7, and it felt like we were a piece away having dumped Morris at the break (or now) to get under the tax.  Losing a tight series after management dumped a key reserve for cost savings is not the type of taste you want in either Kyrie’s or Horford’s mouth entering free agency.

Meanwhile, the cost of the repeater tax is starting to get overstated.  Entering a year early probably costs the Celtics $15-20 million four years from now.  This is in addition to about $10 million this season (tax, some salary, and share of luxury tax revenues).  It’s not peanuts, but $25-30 million spread over a couple of years is perfectly affordable to a team that reportedly netted $100 million last year after revenue sharing.

Now it’s a something else if Morris starts grousing about playing time and is a problem in the locker room, and/or if Semi passes him on the depth chart.  If Morris is your 10th-11th man instead of your 7th-8th man, that’s a different story and you absolutely do look to move him.  Or, obviously, if he gets hurt.  But where we are today, you keep him.  The Celtics have a shot at a title.  They should take it.

Im sorry, but care to explain how the hell Morris became "prone to be a malconentent" He has always been a good lockerroom guy, despite him wanting a bigger role.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: saltlover on July 20, 2018, 07:17:02 AM
I, unlike many internet GM’s, don’t believe a team trying to win a championship should just dump a starting-caliber role player for nothing just to get under the tax. I rather have him ride pine all playoffs than have to turn to Semi or Yabu in a big spot.


If we stretch Nader, we are still about $1.67M above the tax for 14 players, not including Bird.

Salary dumping Yabu would get us below, but I’m not sure what Bird’s number would be (under $1M keeps us under the tax), again for 14 players with zero salary to do anything during the season.

My guess is we stay put and become taxpayers, even for such a small amount. Then we have the $5.3M to play with during the season.
This is part of the issue actually.  Seems a shame to start the repeater clock (which is what we want to avoid more than the actual tax this year) for such a small amount.  Oddly, if we were way over then we might not be having this discussion.

While certainly it would be ideal to not be a tax team this year, it’s more ideal to put the best possible team forward when a legitimate title contender.  If the tax is the price, and thus the repeater clock, so be it.

I've seen this point made by several people and in this case I do not think its the right way to approach this. First of all this team is gonna be good for a long time if we play it right, and to keep it together will require that repeater tax. So its not just the small payment this year thats the problem, its the fact you have to pay the higher rate a year earlier when you will likely be very expensive potentially result in 10's of millions of extra tax. Now if the owner shop is okay with that, then fine. But im skeptical, a historic tax payment which is possible is historic  because it almost never happens. And before everybody says "owner shipping says they will pay" I get it, but pay and pay HUGE are different. If you can get under it makes too.much business sense not to.

And thats before you in factor in other things like playing time, a more limited role, not enough ball to go around and I think it makes even more sense to trade Morris. On top of all that, I think he is massively overated. This team was overall worse with him on the floor last year, his defense comes and goes, his offense is in efficient and he NEVER PASSES THE BALL. Even the idea of him as insurance is overated, because if injuries happen and you reach the point where Morris is a crítical part of your team next year, you arent winning it all.

Now that doesnt mean you have to trade him now. You can wait and see how the team is going before deciding. Maybe Semi steps up and makes him expendable. Maybe the rotation shakes out such that he doesnt get a lot of playing time and you just dont need him. Maybe injuries happen and Ainge decides he does need him. But I think trading Morris is an obvious move.

Of course I am often wrong.

Look, I get it.  I’m a tax hawk and started a thread about why I felt Aron Baynes wasn’t going to stick around because of the tax and that Smart would get a deal in the $12-14 million range.  I was half right.  I also am not a huge Marcus Morris fan.  I think he’s a bit of a chucker who is prone to being a malcontent.  He’s not a must-have.

But despite not being a must-have, he’s a guy we do have, and he fills a role at both ends of the court.  And especially come playoff time he could be highly useful.  If Kawhi shows up to Toronto, he’s the type of player who would be a good defender against him.  The same would potentially be true in the finals against both Durant and Draymond.  And, despite having chucking tendencies, he’s not a cipher on offense like some other options on the roster.  Even with a fully healthy roster, he’s someone who would likely see 20-25 minutes a night against potentially conference final and NBA final opponents.  If you’re seriously trying to win a title this year, as the Celtics seem to be, you don’t dump a player like Morris just to stay out of the tax.  Maybe you don’t enter the tax to acquire him, but once in the roster, you kee the status quo.

I hear the common refrain of “the repeater tax will mess things up down the road and we’re set for years.”  I get where it comes from.  But it ignores the fact that Kyrie is a free agent next summer and this could be our best shot at a title for several more seasons, not to mention that Kyrie leaving takes the tax out of play next year.  Horford is also a free agent if he chooses.  And while I’d bet on both staying, I’d feel less comfortable with that bet if we lost a tight finals in 6 or 7, and it felt like we were a piece away having dumped Morris at the break (or now) to get under the tax.  Losing a tight series after management dumped a key reserve for cost savings is not the type of taste you want in either Kyrie’s or Horford’s mouth entering free agency.

Meanwhile, the cost of the repeater tax is starting to get overstated.  Entering a year early probably costs the Celtics $15-20 million four years from now.  This is in addition to about $10 million this season (tax, some salary, and share of luxury tax revenues).  It’s not peanuts, but $25-30 million spread over a couple of years is perfectly affordable to a team that reportedly netted $100 million last year after revenue sharing.

Now it’s a something else if Morris starts grousing about playing time and is a problem in the locker room, and/or if Semi passes him on the depth chart.  If Morris is your 10th-11th man instead of your 7th-8th man, that’s a different story and you absolutely do look to move him.  Or, obviously, if he gets hurt.  But where we are today, you keep him.  The Celtics have a shot at a title.  They should take it.

Im sorry, but care to explain how the hell Morris became "prone to be a malconentent" He has always been a good lockerroom guy, despite him wanting a bigger role.

Oh, he certainly had his moments in Phoenix and when he was first traded to Detroit.  And then in his exit elinterview this season said:

Quote
“I’m just not sure,” Morris said. “There’s going to be a lot of players next year, so I’m not 100 percent sure where I fit totally yet. It’s just something I’m still kind of wary about.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/celtics/2018/05/29/whatever-happens-with-roster-celtics-will-start-from-position-strength/L28kAEKPLefzIHKx5c6RJJ/story.html (https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/celtics/2018/05/29/whatever-happens-with-roster-celtics-will-start-from-position-strength/L28kAEKPLefzIHKx5c6RJJ/story.html)

Overall I think it will work out, and it’s why I advocate keeping him despite the tax, but I’m not going to be Pollyanna in regards to him.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: Green-18 on July 20, 2018, 07:26:57 AM
I, unlike many internet GM’s, don’t believe a team trying to win a championship should just dump a starting-caliber role player for nothing just to get under the tax. I rather have him ride pine all playoffs than have to turn to Semi or Yabu in a big spot.


If we stretch Nader, we are still about $1.67M above the tax for 14 players, not including Bird.

Salary dumping Yabu would get us below, but I’m not sure what Bird’s number would be (under $1M keeps us under the tax), again for 14 players with zero salary to do anything during the season.

My guess is we stay put and become taxpayers, even for such a small amount. Then we have the $5.3M to play with during the season.
This is part of the issue actually.  Seems a shame to start the repeater clock (which is what we want to avoid more than the actual tax this year) for such a small amount.  Oddly, if we were way over then we might not be having this discussion.

While certainly it would be ideal to not be a tax team this year, it’s more ideal to put the best possible team forward when a legitimate title contender.  If the tax is the price, and thus the repeater clock, so be it.

I've seen this point made by several people and in this case I do not think its the right way to approach this. First of all this team is gonna be good for a long time if we play it right, and to keep it together will require that repeater tax. So its not just the small payment this year thats the problem, its the fact you have to pay the higher rate a year earlier when you will likely be very expensive potentially result in 10's of millions of extra tax. Now if the owner shop is okay with that, then fine. But im skeptical, a historic tax payment which is possible is historic  because it almost never happens. And before everybody says "owner shipping says they will pay" I get it, but pay and pay HUGE are different. If you can get under it makes too.much business sense not to.

And thats before you in factor in other things like playing time, a more limited role, not enough ball to go around and I think it makes even more sense to trade Morris. On top of all that, I think he is massively overated. This team was overall worse with him on the floor last year, his defense comes and goes, his offense is in efficient and he NEVER PASSES THE BALL. Even the idea of him as insurance is overated, because if injuries happen and you reach the point where Morris is a crítical part of your team next year, you arent winning it all.

Now that doesnt mean you have to trade him now. You can wait and see how the team is going before deciding. Maybe Semi steps up and makes him expendable. Maybe the rotation shakes out such that he doesnt get a lot of playing time and you just dont need him. Maybe injuries happen and Ainge decides he does need him. But I think trading Morris is an obvious move.

Of course I am often wrong.

Look, I get it.  I’m a tax hawk and started a thread about why I felt Aron Baynes wasn’t going to stick around because of the tax and that Smart would get a deal in the $12-14 million range.  I was half right.  I also am not a huge Marcus Morris fan.  I think he’s a bit of a chucker who is prone to being a malcontent.  He’s not a must-have.

But despite not being a must-have, he’s a guy we do have, and he fills a role at both ends of the court.  And especially come playoff time he could be highly useful.  If Kawhi shows up to Toronto, he’s the type of player who would be a good defender against him.  The same would potentially be true in the finals against both Durant and Draymond.  And, despite having chucking tendencies, he’s not a cipher on offense like some other options on the roster.  Even with a fully healthy roster, he’s someone who would likely see 20-25 minutes a night against potentially conference final and NBA final opponents.  If you’re seriously trying to win a title this year, as the Celtics seem to be, you don’t dump a player like Morris just to stay out of the tax.  Maybe you don’t enter the tax to acquire him, but once in the roster, you kee the status quo.

I hear the common refrain of “the repeater tax will mess things up down the road and we’re set for years.”  I get where it comes from.  But it ignores the fact that Kyrie is a free agent next summer and this could be our best shot at a title for several more seasons, not to mention that Kyrie leaving takes the tax out of play next year.  Horford is also a free agent if he chooses.  And while I’d bet on both staying, I’d feel less comfortable with that bet if we lost a tight finals in 6 or 7, and it felt like we were a piece away having dumped Morris at the break (or now) to get under the tax.  Losing a tight series after management dumped a key reserve for cost savings is not the type of taste you want in either Kyrie’s or Horford’s mouth entering free agency.

Meanwhile, the cost of the repeater tax is starting to get overstated.  Entering a year early probably costs the Celtics $15-20 million four years from now.  This is in addition to about $10 million this season (tax, some salary, and share of luxury tax revenues).  It’s not peanuts, but $25-30 million spread over a couple of years is perfectly affordable to a team that reportedly netted $100 million last year after revenue sharing.

Now it’s a something else if Morris starts grousing about playing time and is a problem in the locker room, and/or if Semi passes him on the depth chart.  If Morris is your 10th-11th man instead of your 7th-8th man, that’s a different story and you absolutely do look to move him.  Or, obviously, if he gets hurt.  But where we are today, you keep him.  The Celtics have a shot at a title.  They should take it.

Im sorry, but care to explain how the hell Morris became "prone to be a malconentent" He has always been a good lockerroom guy, despite him wanting a bigger role.

Oh, he certainly had his moments in Phoenix and when he was first traded to Detroit.  And then in his exit elinterview this season said:

Quote
“I’m just not sure,” Morris said. “There’s going to be a lot of players next year, so I’m not 100 percent sure where I fit totally yet. It’s just something I’m still kind of wary about.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/celtics/2018/05/29/whatever-happens-with-roster-celtics-will-start-from-position-strength/L28kAEKPLefzIHKx5c6RJJ/story.html (https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/celtics/2018/05/29/whatever-happens-with-roster-celtics-will-start-from-position-strength/L28kAEKPLefzIHKx5c6RJJ/story.html)

Overall I think it will work out, and it’s why I advocate keeping him despite the tax, but I’m not going to be Pollyanna in regards to him.

I also believe that things will work out with Morris.  He expressed fair concerns given the level of talent on the roster.  At the end of the day his job isn't to examine lineup combinations and distribute minutes. 

Brad will find a way to play Morris between 22-25 MPG in a high impact role.  Ideally he sees a spike in efficiency with better talent around him.  I don't think it's unreasonable to project 10 PPG for Morris on 46% from the field and 37% from three.  I think he will be fine with this on a Finals contender.  Morris will have every opportunity to find a larger role with a new team after next season.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: timpiker on July 20, 2018, 10:06:14 AM
Option 1:  part with 2nd rd pick and maybe some cash

Option 2:  pay full 5,375,000 salary, but keep the 2nd rd pick

or Option 3 - keep him, go for 18.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: rondofan1255 on July 23, 2018, 09:34:36 PM
rather stretch Nader and trade Yabusele for cap space

Pretty sure that this does not get C's under the luxury tax threshold. 

Didn't realize that thanks!

Interesting that Nader was just traded in a salary dump. Wonder what's next!  :D
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: nickagneta on July 23, 2018, 10:05:37 PM
rather stretch Nader and trade Yabusele for cap space

Pretty sure that this does not get C's under the luxury tax threshold. 

Didn't realize that thanks!

Interesting that Nader was just traded in a salary dump. Wonder what's next!  :D
I am guessing what is next is not good news for Yabusele Celtic fans.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: otherdave on July 23, 2018, 10:32:03 PM
C's now stand at 14 players/contracts (assuming Purvis is cut).  Any player traded out (including Yabu) will have to be replaced with a new player coming in at probably a minimum of 1.4 or 1.5 million.  Remember undrafted players count towards tax as 1.5 mil even they are only being paid rookie min at 838k.

So trading Yabu doesn't get C's under the lux tax.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: bellerephon on July 23, 2018, 10:33:02 PM
rather stretch Nader and trade Yabusele for cap space

Pretty sure that this does not get C's under the luxury tax threshold. 

Didn't realize that thanks!

Interesting that Nader was just traded in a salary dump. Wonder what's next!  :D
I am guessing what is next is not good news for Yabusele Celtic fans.

Does getting rid of Yabu's salary move them under the tax threshold?
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: nickagneta on July 23, 2018, 10:50:26 PM
rather stretch Nader and trade Yabusele for cap space

Pretty sure that this does not get C's under the luxury tax threshold. 

Didn't realize that thanks!

Interesting that Nader was just traded in a salary dump. Wonder what's next!  :D
I am guessing what is next is not good news for Yabusele Celtic fans.

Does getting rid of Yabu's salary move them under the tax threshold?
I believe it does.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on July 23, 2018, 11:01:52 PM
Given that the Cs would have two open roster spots if they traded Yabu for a draft pick, while only being 1 million shy of the luxury tax, I don't think Yabu is probably the first guy on the chopping block right now.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: saltlover on July 23, 2018, 11:02:10 PM
rather stretch Nader and trade Yabusele for cap space

Pretty sure that this does not get C's under the luxury tax threshold. 

Didn't realize that thanks!

Interesting that Nader was just traded in a salary dump. Wonder what's next!  :D
I am guessing what is next is not good news for Yabusele Celtic fans.

Does getting rid of Yabu's salary move them under the tax threshold?
I believe it does.

Yes, but not by much.  The Celtics aren’t going to go until the buyout season with only 13 players, so expect Yabu to stay until February at least.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: ETNCeltics on July 23, 2018, 11:21:09 PM
JMO, I think they'll make a move to get below the tax this year. Getting in the repeater tax a year early and also losing out on a share of tax revenue could cost several million $. If you were Wyc and Co, would you pay all that just to keep Morris or Yabu?  Morris is mediocre in every way, and Yabu hasn't shown he's even that, at least not yet.

If Kyrie, Smart, JB, JT, Hayward, Al all average only 30 minutes, Baynes gets 20 or so, Theis gets a little on some nights we play teams with 2 decent bigs, Rozier gets 15-20, there isn't going to be 20-25 minutes for Morris, and his comments a few weeks ago show that he's noticed that as well. That's to say nothing if Semi or Yabu warrant some minutes (assuming Yabu isn't gone and either can find a 3 pt shot). If Semi can even find a hint of a 3 pt shot, Morris is Audi 5000, and it isn't even a judgment call.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: droopdog7 on July 24, 2018, 02:18:06 AM
How does dumping Yabusele get the celts under the tax?  I’m seeing a salary of about 2.6 mil which doesn’t seem to be enough.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: Somebody on July 24, 2018, 03:24:08 AM
So our next move is to dump Morris and sign Bird? That'll get us right under the tax line I think, but we'll have 1 open roster spot. Can we get an extra player in buyout season without going over the tax line in this case?
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: trickybilly on July 24, 2018, 03:35:57 AM
How does dumping Yabusele get the celts under the tax?  I’m seeing a salary of about 2.6 mil which doesn’t seem to be enough.

You may not have removed ALL of Nader's salary.

Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: trickybilly on July 24, 2018, 03:37:01 AM
rather stretch Nader and trade Yabusele for cap space

Pretty sure that this does not get C's under the luxury tax threshold. 

Didn't realize that thanks!

Interesting that Nader was just traded in a salary dump. Wonder what's next!  :D
I am guessing what is next is not good news for Yabusele Celtic fans.

Does getting rid of Yabu's salary move them under the tax threshold?
I believe it does.

Yes, but not by much.  The Celtics aren’t going to go until the buyout season with only 13 players, so expect Yabu to stay until February at least.

And expect to see plenty of Rozier, Wannamaker, Morris, Yabusele, Theis lineups before then too..
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: trickybilly on July 24, 2018, 03:46:51 AM
So our next move is to dump Morris and sign Bird? That'll get us right under the tax line I think, but we'll have 1 open roster spot. Can we get an extra player in buyout season without going over the tax line in this case?

You don't just "dump" Morris... he has value.

Also, I think it is probably equally likely, if not moreso, that C's look to trade Rozier (if they do make a trade to get under the line). Whatever happens, the trade will be for a shooter.. Not sure how many aging shooters there are lying around who would accept the vet min. Vince Carter???? Joe Johnson?
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: smokeablount on July 24, 2018, 05:51:32 AM
rather stretch Nader and trade Yabusele for cap space

Pretty sure that this does not get C's under the luxury tax threshold. 

Didn't realize that thanks!

Interesting that Nader was just traded in a salary dump. Wonder what's next!  :D
I am guessing what is next is not good news for Yabusele Celtic fans.

Does getting rid of Yabu's salary move them under the tax threshold?
I believe it does.

Yes, but not by much.  The Celtics aren’t going to go until the buyout season with only 13 players, so expect Yabu to stay until February at least.

Maybe we dump Yabu for (at worst) a protected 2nd and then sign Bird to a vet min for 14 players?
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: saltlover on July 24, 2018, 06:52:38 AM
rather stretch Nader and trade Yabusele for cap space

Pretty sure that this does not get C's under the luxury tax threshold. 

Didn't realize that thanks!

Interesting that Nader was just traded in a salary dump. Wonder what's next!  :D
I am guessing what is next is not good news for Yabusele Celtic fans.

Does getting rid of Yabu's salary move them under the tax threshold?
I believe it does.

Yes, but not by much.  The Celtics aren’t going to go until the buyout season with only 13 players, so expect Yabu to stay until February at least.

Maybe we dump Yabu for (at worst) a protected 2nd and then sign Bird to a vet min for 14 players?

We either sign Bird now, which means the Celtics still aren’t worried about the tax, or we go to 14 players and dump Yabu at the trade deadline and then sign someone at the buyout period, meaning we’re going with 13 players only for about a week post the ASB, and then sign another player or convert someone from a 2-way the last days of the season to head to the playoffs with 15.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: Androslav on July 24, 2018, 07:33:04 AM
Morris could start on teams.
We need to get under the tax.
Other teams know this.
We lose some leverage.
Let's hope some combination of wing needy teams drive his price up to a decent 2nd rounder.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: smokeablount on July 24, 2018, 07:54:52 AM
Morris could start on teams.
We need to get under the tax.
Other teams know this.
We lose some leverage.
Let's hope some combination of wing needy teams drive his price up to a decent 2nd rounder.

From what I understand, Portland is trying to win now and has a trade exception (exemption?) and it seems like Morris would be their best forward.

If we’re looking to deal Morris for value, either a pick or a guard, Portland is a logical starting point.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: saltlover on July 24, 2018, 08:13:07 AM
Morris to Denver for Tyler Lydon.  We get an okayish prospect and get under the tax with enough room to sign someone for the minimum.  Denver gets their primary backup for the 3/4 and stays under the tax.
Title: Re: Marcus Morris: better to trade or stretch?
Post by: otherdave on July 24, 2018, 09:49:53 AM
rather stretch Nader and trade Yabusele for cap space



Pretty sure that this does not get C's under the luxury tax threshold. 

Didn't realize that thanks!

Interesting that Nader was just traded in a salary dump. Wonder what's next!  :D
I am guessing what is next is not good news for Yabusele Celtic fans.

Does getting rid of Yabu's salary move them under the tax threshold?
I believe it does.

Yes, but not by much.  The Celtics aren’t going to go until the buyout season with only 13 players, so expect Yabu to stay until February at least.

Maybe we dump Yabu for (at worst) a protected 2nd and then sign Bird to a vet min for 14 players?

We either sign Bird now, which means the Celtics still aren’t worried about the tax, or we go to 14 players and dump Yabu at the trade deadline and then sign someone at the buyout period, meaning we’re going with 13 players only for about a week post the ASB, and then sign another player or convert someone from a 2-way the last days of the season to head to the playoffs with 15.



Salty - once season starts don't all teams need to have at least 14 players under contract at all times?

Bloggers are suggesting that C's could trade Yabu for a draft pick, thus taking no money back, and thus getting team under tax line, but that would leave them with only 13 players.  Once they sign the 14th player (that they are required to??), that puts them over the tax line again.

I am not saying whether C's should care about lux tax this year or not, BUT if they are, I am pretty sure trading Yabu and replacing that slot with someone does not get team under tax line.

Remember everyone:  even though most salary sites list Wannamaker's salary as 838,464 (and that is his salary), for tax calculations he counts at the 2yr vet minimum of 1,512,601 - because he was not drafted.

edit: this link from dangercart over on reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/91haa4/the_celtics_will_be_25m_over_the_tax_line_not/