Author Topic: What can Brown do for Team USA? Just about everything  (Read 23378 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: What can Brown do for Team USA? Just about everything
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2019, 12:40:14 PM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30859
  • Tommy Points: 1327
There are different degrees of "win now".

The Celtics are trying to win this year. But if Tatum/Brown/Hayward don't leap to all-nba level to join Kemba as a true stars they aren't winning it all.

You don't trade a young player with RFA for a short term upgrade when your core is still young and you probably need more talent overall to win it all anyways. The idea that they must trade Brown because they signed Kemba is short-sighted.

Both Kemba and Hayward are 29 years old.

There was nothing wrong if Ainge kept his word to build around Tatum and Brown.
That way the team will grow together.

By signing Kemba, the Celts will most likely have a 3-year window because when Kemba reaches the age of 32, his speed and quickness will start to deteriorate.

If Bradley Beal becomes available, replacing Brown with Beal is an upgrade.
The most important player to the Celtics ceiling isn't Kemba Walker, it is Jayson Tatum.

I'd trade Brown for Beal straight up, but it wouldn't be a straight trade. It would be for a lot of picks, Brown and Smart and more. Is Kemba/Beal/Tatum a title team? Would the team have the resources left to complete a title roster? Would the C's be able to keep Beal with his upcoming FA in two years?

Those are hard questions, remember Beal isn't even available (even for the bounty that LAC paid for Paul George)

Re: What can Brown do for Team USA? Just about everything
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2019, 12:43:30 PM »

Offline Fierce1

  • NGT
  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2630
  • Tommy Points: 121

If Bradley Beal becomes available, replacing Brown with Beal is an upgrade.

Is gaining Beal while losing Brown & others an upgrade, though?

When going after a championship, you have to be all in.

What did Ainge do in 2007?

Ainge gave away almost all the young players and the lottery picks for KG and Ray.

Ray was 32 years old and KG was 31 years old.

Clearly the Celts only had a 3 or 4-year window with KG, Pierce, and Ray.

You can't have it both ways.

Ainge tried mixing the vets with the young players last season and the Celts ended up imploding.

Either go young or go with the vets.

Re: What can Brown do for Team USA? Just about everything
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2019, 12:44:20 PM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30859
  • Tommy Points: 1327
All the great scorers shoot well at the FT line because they get a lot of points from the FT line..
:o

Um...

Let me tell you about a player that few have heard of.

His name was Wilt, no you probably heard of him.

How about another player his name was Tim, or was it Shaq, no it was Chris? Maybe it was Elvin?

Re: What can Brown do for Team USA? Just about everything
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2019, 12:45:41 PM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30859
  • Tommy Points: 1327

If Bradley Beal becomes available, replacing Brown with Beal is an upgrade.

Is gaining Beal while losing Brown & others an upgrade, though?

When going after a championship, you have to be all in.

What did Ainge do in 2007?

Ainge gave away almost all the young players and the lottery picks for KG and Ray.

Ray was 32 years old and KG was 31 years old.

Clearly the Celts only had a 3 or 4-year window with KG, Pierce, and Ray.

You can't have it both ways.

Ainge tried mixing the vets with the young players last season and the Celts ended up imploding.

Either go young or go with the vets.
So you think Tatum is a MVP caliber player, right now in the next 3 years?

KG was a MVP caliber player.

Re: What can Brown do for Team USA? Just about everything
« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2019, 12:46:30 PM »

Offline Fierce1

  • NGT
  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2630
  • Tommy Points: 121
There are different degrees of "win now".

The Celtics are trying to win this year. But if Tatum/Brown/Hayward don't leap to all-nba level to join Kemba as a true stars they aren't winning it all.

You don't trade a young player with RFA for a short term upgrade when your core is still young and you probably need more talent overall to win it all anyways. The idea that they must trade Brown because they signed Kemba is short-sighted.

Both Kemba and Hayward are 29 years old.

There was nothing wrong if Ainge kept his word to build around Tatum and Brown.
That way the team will grow together.

By signing Kemba, the Celts will most likely have a 3-year window because when Kemba reaches the age of 32, his speed and quickness will start to deteriorate.

If Bradley Beal becomes available, replacing Brown with Beal is an upgrade.
The most important player to the Celtics ceiling isn't Kemba Walker, it is Jayson Tatum.

I'd trade Brown for Beal straight up, but it wouldn't be a straight trade. It would be for a lot of picks, Brown and Smart and more. Is Kemba/Beal/Tatum a title team? Would the team have the resources left to complete a title roster? Would the C's be able to keep Beal with his upcoming FA in two years?

Those are hard questions, remember Beal isn't even available (even for the bounty that LAC paid for Paul George)

Jayson Tatum is not ready to be the #1 guy.

At best, Tatum will be #2 behind Kemba this coming season.

Steve Bulpett reported the Celts are not done dealing because the Celts don't believe they're on the same level as the elite teams.

Like I said, right now is not the time to trade Brown.
We'll see a clearer picture by January or February.

Re: What can Brown do for Team USA? Just about everything
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2019, 12:49:54 PM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30859
  • Tommy Points: 1327
Jayson Tatum is not ready to be the #1 guy.
Then any trade you make needs to be to the future not the immediate season.

Re: What can Brown do for Team USA? Just about everything
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2019, 12:50:30 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48120
  • Tommy Points: 8794
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
Brown proved in season 2 he could be a #1 or #2 offensive option.

Brown proved in seasons 2 and 3 that he is a great two way wing that can play both the SG and SF position.

Brown proved last year he can take on the role of bench player/sixth man and succeed there.

Brown proved the last two seasons he is an even better playoff performer than he is a regular season performer.

And now, this summer, for team USA, Jaylen proved he can guard the PF and C positions very well against high quality players.

And after proving all that, Jaylen is going to get less minutes and be worth less money because....why exactly? Aren't players that prove all that type of stuff players you keep and pay a lot of money to?
I don't think one playoff run proves anything.  To prove he can be a #1 or #2 option, Brown needs to do it over a much longer time frame.  He has yet to do that frankly.  IMO, Brown is an average #3 at best and a #5 at worst.
Jaylen was the team's #2 offensive option his 2nd year in the league. Once Kyrie went down, he became a defacto co-#1 option along with Tatum for the rest of the season and throughout the playoffs. That is plenty of proof right there.

One season of playing well is not enough proof to conclude that the player is a great player.

Danny Ainge learned his lesson after giving Mark Blount a big contract after Blount had a very good 2003-04 season.
Brown played pretty great ball once he got back from injury and started playing on the bench. From 12/6/18 onward he had 13.7/4.3/1.7 numbers with shooting splits of 48.8/37.9/66.9 and a TS% around 59-60.

He did that in 25 minutes. That mean's his Per36 numbers would be around 20/6/2.5 with those really good shooting numbers.

Brown has had more than one great year. He started off awful last year, as did many on the team, but bounced back, filled his role and played great the rest of the year. Ainge and Stevens even singled out Brown as having handled last year the best of any Celtic in going out and thriving in his role through all the craziness.

My question to you is Jaylen Brown going to be on the same level as Paul George, Jimmy Butler, and Kawhi Leonard?

There's no doubt that Jaylen Brown is a very good player.
But I don't think he's the next Scottie Pippen or Paul Pierce.

We star players in today's NBA.

Celts are in win now mode.

If Ainge kept his word about building around Brown and Tatum, Kemba should not have been signed.
But because of Kemba and Hayward, the Celts are in win now mode.
So waiting to see if Jaylen can be special is out of the question.
What Ainge needs to do right now is upgrade the team so that it can be on par with the elite teams of the NBA.
He is 22. In 3-4 years when Jaylen is the wicked old age of 26, I could see him being one of the best two way players in the game, a very Jimmy Butler like player but with a better outside shot.

And next year and beyond, I think the combo of Smart and Brown would create more wins for the Celtics than just Beal, so I would never do that trade.

So let's agree to disagree.

I just don't believe Brown is going to become a closer like Jimmy Butler.

The FT shooting alone tells you Brown is not going to become a scorer in the NBA.

All the great scorers shoot well at the FT line because they get a lot of points from the FT line.

Brown has never shot 70% or higher his whole NBA career and in college.
Sure, let's agree to disagree.

Let's also agree to stop pushing agendas regarding Brown across multiple threads. It's very trollish of us.


Re: What can Brown do for Team USA? Just about everything
« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2019, 12:50:37 PM »

Offline Fierce1

  • NGT
  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2630
  • Tommy Points: 121

If Bradley Beal becomes available, replacing Brown with Beal is an upgrade.

Is gaining Beal while losing Brown & others an upgrade, though?

When going after a championship, you have to be all in.

What did Ainge do in 2007?

Ainge gave away almost all the young players and the lottery picks for KG and Ray.

Ray was 32 years old and KG was 31 years old.

Clearly the Celts only had a 3 or 4-year window with KG, Pierce, and Ray.

You can't have it both ways.

Ainge tried mixing the vets with the young players last season and the Celts ended up imploding.

Either go young or go with the vets.
So you think Tatum is a MVP caliber player, right now in the next 3 years?

KG was a MVP caliber player.

Tatum still needs to prove he can be the #1 guy like Paul Pierce.

That's why I was surprised Ainge signed Kemba.

Ainge said Celts would be fine building around Tatum and Brown.
If only Ainge kept his word, there would be no pressure on the Celts to win now.

Re: What can Brown do for Team USA? Just about everything
« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2019, 12:51:43 PM »

Offline keevsnick

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5515
  • Tommy Points: 549
There are different degrees of "win now".

The Celtics are trying to win this year. But if Tatum/Brown/Hayward don't leap to all-nba level to join Kemba as a true stars they aren't winning it all.

You don't trade a young player with RFA for a short term upgrade when your core is still young and you probably need more talent overall to win it all anyways. The idea that they must trade Brown because they signed Kemba is short-sighted.

Both Kemba and Hayward are 29 years old.

There was nothing wrong if Ainge kept his word to build around Tatum and Brown.
That way the team will grow together.

By signing Kemba, the Celts will most likely have a 3-year window because when Kemba reaches the age of 32, his speed and quickness will start to deteriorate.

If Bradley Beal becomes available, replacing Brown with Beal is an upgrade.

They signed Kemba because Kemba is a good player to have, and they were unlikely to have max space moving forward. But Kemba is not the kind of guy who you are making all in moves to build around. Trading Brown+Smart+other stuff for beal to have a Beal, Tatum, Kemba core isnt good enough to win, and doesn't for sure even make you THAT much better.

Re: What can Brown do for Team USA? Just about everything
« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2019, 12:52:49 PM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30859
  • Tommy Points: 1327
Signing Kemba isn't a sign of going all in! Its a sign they didn't want to tank for a youth movement eating bad deals for draft picks. If you have cap space you have to use it, and the C's had one off season to utilize it before Brown's new deal would potentially wipe it away.

Its a sign that they wanted to improve their talent while they had a chance at cap space. With Al leaving they had cap space that will potentially go away once Brown/Tatum are on new deals.

Re: What can Brown do for Team USA? Just about everything
« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2019, 12:53:21 PM »

Offline Fierce1

  • NGT
  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2630
  • Tommy Points: 121
Jayson Tatum is not ready to be the #1 guy.
Then any trade you make needs to be to the future not the immediate season.

Not necessarily.

Tatum can be like what James Worthy was to the Lakers when the Lakers had Magic and Kareem.

If the Celts have Kemba, Hayward, and Beall, Tatum can be the 3rd or 4th option.

Re: What can Brown do for Team USA? Just about everything
« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2019, 12:54:59 PM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30859
  • Tommy Points: 1327
Jayson Tatum is not ready to be the #1 guy.
Then any trade you make needs to be to the future not the immediate season.

Not necessarily.

Tatum can be like what James Worthy was to the Lakers when the Lakers had Magic and Kareem.

If the Celts have Kemba, Hayward, and Beall, Tatum can be the 3rd or 4th option.
If Kemba and Beal performed the fusion dance they wouldn't get to Magic's level on those teams.

Re: What can Brown do for Team USA? Just about everything
« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2019, 12:55:21 PM »

Offline Fierce1

  • NGT
  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2630
  • Tommy Points: 121
There are different degrees of "win now".

The Celtics are trying to win this year. But if Tatum/Brown/Hayward don't leap to all-nba level to join Kemba as a true stars they aren't winning it all.

You don't trade a young player with RFA for a short term upgrade when your core is still young and you probably need more talent overall to win it all anyways. The idea that they must trade Brown because they signed Kemba is short-sighted.

Both Kemba and Hayward are 29 years old.

There was nothing wrong if Ainge kept his word to build around Tatum and Brown.
That way the team will grow together.

By signing Kemba, the Celts will most likely have a 3-year window because when Kemba reaches the age of 32, his speed and quickness will start to deteriorate.

If Bradley Beal becomes available, replacing Brown with Beal is an upgrade.

They signed Kemba because Kemba is a good player to have, and they were unlikely to have max space moving forward. But Kemba is not the kind of guy who you are making all in moves to build around. Trading Brown+Smart+other stuff for beal to have a Beal, Tatum, Kemba core isnt good enough to win, and doesn't for sure even make you THAT much better.

You forgot to include Hayward.

If Hayward returns to All-Star form, Celts will have the best 1, 2, 3, 4 in the league.
Just like the Big 4 of GSW when KD joined GSW in 2016.

Kemba, Beal, Hayward, and Tatum.
That's a Big 4 right there.

Re: What can Brown do for Team USA? Just about everything
« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2019, 12:57:09 PM »

Offline Fierce1

  • NGT
  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2630
  • Tommy Points: 121
Jayson Tatum is not ready to be the #1 guy.
Then any trade you make needs to be to the future not the immediate season.

Not necessarily.

Tatum can be like what James Worthy was to the Lakers when the Lakers had Magic and Kareem.

If the Celts have Kemba, Hayward, and Beall, Tatum can be the 3rd or 4th option.
If Kemba and Beal performed the fusion dance they wouldn't get to Magic's level on those teams.

Remember, in today's NBA, the rules are different.

The Toronto Raptors won a championship by simply swapping DeRozan with Kawhi.

Right now the NBA is wide open because the GSW dynasty is over.

Re: What can Brown do for Team USA? Just about everything
« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2019, 01:00:40 PM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30859
  • Tommy Points: 1327
Jayson Tatum is not ready to be the #1 guy.
Then any trade you make needs to be to the future not the immediate season.

Not necessarily.

Tatum can be like what James Worthy was to the Lakers when the Lakers had Magic and Kareem.

If the Celts have Kemba, Hayward, and Beall, Tatum can be the 3rd or 4th option.
If Kemba and Beal performed the fusion dance they wouldn't get to Magic's level on those teams.

Remember, in today's NBA, the rules are different.

The Toronto Raptors won a championship by simply swapping DeRozan with Kawhi.

Right now the NBA is wide open because the GSW dynasty is over.
They added a MVP caliber player in the place of a bottom tier all-star. I'm all for trading Brown for a MVP caliber player.