2020 Historic Draft: How’s My Team Look: Conference Finals winners announced!!

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Congrats to everyone that is moving on. And a massive kudos to everyone that participated, that was a fun draft.

I can't wait for the Boston - Milwaukee matchup. Who and Roy, who's basketball ideas and takes I really admire and respect, are going at it. This is going to be terrific.

Can't wait.

[Somebody]

I admit I don't know enough about Mourning's game. From what I've read, I wouldn't take him above Embiid-Jokic. I may well be wrong.

If you happen to see any Heat games from 1999 or 2000, check them out. Zoe was a monster on both ends. He was one of the most dominant defensive players of the era, but he could also score in a multitude of ways.  In an era of good centers, Alonzo averaged 20 / 10 with nearly four blocks per game.

I don’t think that either Embiid or Jokic are in the conversation.  They are both extremely talented, but neither has shown the ability to dominate on both ends like Mourning.

Check out this comparison between Mourning and Embiid:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Joel+Embiid&player_id1_select=Joel+Embiid&y1=2020&player_id1=embiijo01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Alonzo+Mourning&player_id2_select=Alonzo+Mourning&y2=2000&player_id2=mournal01&idx=players

The year I chose for Embiid was 18-19 I believe.

And I believe Mourning had a better TEAM around him that Embiid does now...

Don't believe Zo had "A Unicorn of a PG that was reluctant to shoot".....

Zo appeared to be a black hole on offense as well....not sure how I could reconcile the assist numbers (maybe poster 'Somebody" could do this?)

It is all water under the bridge now, though...votes have been cast...favorites have been chosen...trades have been made already.

I enjoyed myself.

Just looking forward to the next one - and with hopefully a LARGER pool of players to chose from.

Alonzo Mourning was a black hole - he was like a smaller Ewing during his peak (strong scoring + elite defensive peak, but weak passing and low offensive portability).

Real question:  how many games did you watch him play?   Given your appreciation for Kevin Garnett and David Robinson, I suspect she would love watching the man play basketball.  I ask because you have previously disclosed your age, and sometimes I feel that your takes do you not line up with those of people who watched the games at the time.

Alonzo wasn’t a modern-era passer, but he wasn’t a black hole, either.  Over the two-year stretch from 1998-2000, he had two of the top 12 seasons for centers in assists per game.

To that end, I don’t quite understand the concept of offensive portability. Where would 2000 David Robinson rank by that metric? What about Shaquille O’Neal? I suppose it’s a chicken versus egg thing, but I think if we had giant, efficient, offensively dominant bigs in the league today, coaches would use them.

A few (with one I recently watched when we were talking about PnR defence https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuaIqRnm-Yg), and combined with reading what people who actually watched him play express their views about him (yes their takes do not line up with yours) I don't think he was a good passer at all. Top 12 in assists per game among centres sounds nice, but when his per 100 averages are 2.4 assists as an offensive centrepiece of a very good Miami squad it's safe to say that he was a black hole for a centre eating up that sort of usage on a good team. And I don't think it's fair to compare Robinson and Garnett to Mourning at all, the two were completely different from Mourning. Robinson and Garnett were the prototype of the modern big man, players who weren't savants at banging inside for easy scores, but had unique impact due to their combination of floor spacing, extra passing and finishing that fits perfectly next to on ball stars (and in Garnett's case amplifies the skillsets of those stars).

Here's an article explaining how portability works: https://fansided.com/2017/12/18/nylon-calculus-thunder-talent-portability/. 2000 Robinson would rank near the top of big men in that concept while Shaq wouldn't be too far behind.

[action781]

Wow my team was all over the place in these votes. From first to middle to absolute last.

I knew I was facing an uphill battle building a team around Kobe in a board full of Celtics fans (I really couldn't not take him at 9 though)- and while I'm disappointed to miss the playoffs this was a ton of fun!

Really hope we get to do another historical draft soon while this quarantine continues. Good luck to everyone in the playoffs, these should be some fun matchups.

I had your LAL as my #1 team in the West and #2 overall.  I was pretty confident that I'd be playing you in the WCF... to the point that I already have ~500 words typed up about that matchup ready to fire!   LOL  XD

I had LA Clippers as my #2 team which I thought was really strong too.

Good job by all... you're all winners in my mind!  Looking forward to starting my ECF planning from scratch!  Denver won't be an easy opponent.

[Moranis]

Wow my team was all over the place in these votes. From first to middle to absolute last.

I knew I was facing an uphill battle building a team around Kobe in a board full of Celtics fans (I really couldn't not take him at 9 though)- and while I'm disappointed to miss the playoffs this was a ton of fun!

Really hope we get to do another historical draft soon while this quarantine continues. Good luck to everyone in the playoffs, these should be some fun matchups.

I didn't vote, but for me the issue with your team wouldn't have been Kobe, it would have been the surrounding pieces.  In some cases fit, some cases talent, or both (i.e. I felt you drafted some players too early when better players were on the board or players that would have fit better).  For example, I think Jokic or Webber would be good, but not both.  You needed a strong interior defender next to either one of those guys.  If he was a great rebounder also that also would have helped.  I think you recognized that and took Camby, but Camby is so much less talented overall.  I didn't mind Artest as much, but I'm not sure that even prime-Artest should be a starter in this.  Lilllard seems like a clunky fit with Kobe.  Things like that is what I would guess hurt your overall team ranking. 

[GreenFaith1819]

I admit I don't know enough about Mourning's game. From what I've read, I wouldn't take him above Embiid-Jokic. I may well be wrong.

If you happen to see any Heat games from 1999 or 2000, check them out. Zoe was a monster on both ends. He was one of the most dominant defensive players of the era, but he could also score in a multitude of ways.  In an era of good centers, Alonzo averaged 20 / 10 with nearly four blocks per game.

I don’t think that either Embiid or Jokic are in the conversation.  They are both extremely talented, but neither has shown the ability to dominate on both ends like Mourning.

Check out this comparison between Mourning and Embiid:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Joel+Embiid&player_id1_select=Joel+Embiid&y1=2020&player_id1=embiijo01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Alonzo+Mourning&player_id2_select=Alonzo+Mourning&y2=2000&player_id2=mournal01&idx=players

The year I chose for Embiid was 18-19 I believe.

And I believe Mourning had a better TEAM around him that Embiid does now...

Don't believe Zo had "A Unicorn of a PG that was reluctant to shoot".....

Zo appeared to be a black hole on offense as well....not sure how I could reconcile the assist numbers (maybe poster 'Somebody" could do this?)

It is all water under the bridge now, though...votes have been cast...favorites have been chosen...trades have been made already.

I enjoyed myself.

Just looking forward to the next one - and with hopefully a LARGER pool of players to chose from.

Alonzo Mourning was a black hole - he was like a smaller Ewing during his peak (strong scoring + elite defensive peak, but weak passing and low offensive portability).

Real question:  how many games did you watch him play?   Given your appreciation for Kevin Garnett and David Robinson, I suspect she would love watching the man play basketball.  I ask because you have previously disclosed your age, and sometimes I feel that your takes do you not line up with those of people who watched the games at the time.

Alonzo wasn’t a modern-era passer, but he wasn’t a black hole, either.  Over the two-year stretch from 1998-2000, he had two of the top 12 seasons for centers in assists per game.

To that end, I don’t quite understand the concept of offensive portability. Where would 2000 David Robinson rank by that metric? What about Shaquille O’Neal? I suppose it’s a chicken versus egg thing, but I think if we had giant, efficient, offensively dominant bigs in the league today, coaches would use them.

Roy -

For ME? No worries. I personally looked hard at adding Zo next to Dirk but thought that Embiid would work better. That was my call.

"I" watched Zo growing up (I'm 50)...loved him so much that during BOS's Lean Years he made me a Charlotte fan for a couple of years lol.

You have a GREAT team, though. Your choice of building around Greek Freak was sound and I wished that I had a earlier pick.

Love Dirk but knew that it would be a challenge hiding his defensive deficiencies. Didn't want to start Tyson because of his OFFENSIVE limitations.

Having the 11th pick placed me on the fringe of getting a true "A" (all-around talent) but no regrets.

I enjoyed myself and wish the playoff contenders well.

Looking forward to NEXT one.

[Roy H.]

I admit I don't know enough about Mourning's game. From what I've read, I wouldn't take him above Embiid-Jokic. I may well be wrong.

If you happen to see any Heat games from 1999 or 2000, check them out. Zoe was a monster on both ends. He was one of the most dominant defensive players of the era, but he could also score in a multitude of ways.  In an era of good centers, Alonzo averaged 20 / 10 with nearly four blocks per game.

I don’t think that either Embiid or Jokic are in the conversation.  They are both extremely talented, but neither has shown the ability to dominate on both ends like Mourning.

Check out this comparison between Mourning and Embiid:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Joel+Embiid&player_id1_select=Joel+Embiid&y1=2020&player_id1=embiijo01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Alonzo+Mourning&player_id2_select=Alonzo+Mourning&y2=2000&player_id2=mournal01&idx=players

The year I chose for Embiid was 18-19 I believe.

And I believe Mourning had a better TEAM around him that Embiid does now...

Don't believe Zo had "A Unicorn of a PG that was reluctant to shoot".....

Zo appeared to be a black hole on offense as well....not sure how I could reconcile the assist numbers (maybe poster 'Somebody" could do this?)

It is all water under the bridge now, though...votes have been cast...favorites have been chosen...trades have been made already.

I enjoyed myself.

Just looking forward to the next one - and with hopefully a LARGER pool of players to chose from.

Alonzo Mourning was a black hole - he was like a smaller Ewing during his peak (strong scoring + elite defensive peak, but weak passing and low offensive portability).

Real question:  how many games did you watch him play?   Given your appreciation for Kevin Garnett and David Robinson, I suspect she would love watching the man play basketball.  I ask because you have previously disclosed your age, and sometimes I feel that your takes do you not line up with those of people who watched the games at the time.

Alonzo wasn’t a modern-era passer, but he wasn’t a black hole, either.  Over the two-year stretch from 1998-2000, he had two of the top 12 seasons for centers in assists per game.

To that end, I don’t quite understand the concept of offensive portability. Where would 2000 David Robinson rank by that metric? What about Shaquille O’Neal? I suppose it’s a chicken versus egg thing, but I think if we had giant, efficient, offensively dominant bigs in the league today, coaches would use them.

Roy -

For ME? No worries. I personally looked hard at adding Zo next to Dirk but thought that Embiid would work better. That was my call.

"I" watched Zo growing up (I'm 50)...loved him so much that during BOS's Lean Years he made me a Charlotte fan for a couple of years lol.

You have a GREAT team, though. Your choice of building around Greek Freak was sound and I wished that I had a earlier pick.

Love Dirk but knew that it would be a challenge hiding his defensive deficiencies. Didn't want to start Tyson because of his OFFENSIVE limitations.

Having the 11th pick placed me on the fringe of getting a true "A" (all-around talent) but no regrets.

I enjoyed myself and wish the playoff contenders well.

Looking forward to NEXT one.

No, GreenFaith, I'm aware of your basketball knowledge.  I know you've watched all of these guys play.

It's one of the unique things about the Historic Draft, though:  not everybody has.  Even only going back to 2000, there are GMs in this draft who weren't born, or were barely out of diapers.  Viewing players through a purely statistical lens, I don't think it's possible to get the full flavor for some of their greatness.

I really liked the team you built.  It was the smartest, best two-way team you've put together, in my opinion.  Well done.

[Donoghus]

Brooklyn jumps out as super volatile. I think voters really didn't know what to do with that team - probably the most unique team in the league, incredibly talented but just so much to chew on. The caliber of rosters across the board made rating that team really tough, and I bet it has the highest standard deviation of all the votes.

Yeah, I kind've suspected that would be the case.  Combination of not having one of the true alphas in the game and also some unfamiliarity among the younger people with some of the 2000s guys on my team especially prime T-Mac.  Iverson is probably the single biggest lightning rod in these exercises too.  He can be the ultimate double edged sword.

Knowing my draft slot and how I would miss out all the top tier talent, I went fun and uptempo and tried to build legit cohesive unit where the pieces would actually fit.   For picking dead last, I'm pretty happy how I ended up.

[Somebody]

I admit I don't know enough about Mourning's game. From what I've read, I wouldn't take him above Embiid-Jokic. I may well be wrong.

If you happen to see any Heat games from 1999 or 2000, check them out. Zoe was a monster on both ends. He was one of the most dominant defensive players of the era, but he could also score in a multitude of ways.  In an era of good centers, Alonzo averaged 20 / 10 with nearly four blocks per game.

I don’t think that either Embiid or Jokic are in the conversation.  They are both extremely talented, but neither has shown the ability to dominate on both ends like Mourning.

Check out this comparison between Mourning and Embiid:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Joel+Embiid&player_id1_select=Joel+Embiid&y1=2020&player_id1=embiijo01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Alonzo+Mourning&player_id2_select=Alonzo+Mourning&y2=2000&player_id2=mournal01&idx=players

The year I chose for Embiid was 18-19 I believe.

And I believe Mourning had a better TEAM around him that Embiid does now...

Don't believe Zo had "A Unicorn of a PG that was reluctant to shoot".....

Zo appeared to be a black hole on offense as well....not sure how I could reconcile the assist numbers (maybe poster 'Somebody" could do this?)

It is all water under the bridge now, though...votes have been cast...favorites have been chosen...trades have been made already.

I enjoyed myself.

Just looking forward to the next one - and with hopefully a LARGER pool of players to chose from.

Alonzo Mourning was a black hole - he was like a smaller Ewing during his peak (strong scoring + elite defensive peak, but weak passing and low offensive portability).

Real question:  how many games did you watch him play?   Given your appreciation for Kevin Garnett and David Robinson, I suspect she would love watching the man play basketball.  I ask because you have previously disclosed your age, and sometimes I feel that your takes do you not line up with those of people who watched the games at the time.

Alonzo wasn’t a modern-era passer, but he wasn’t a black hole, either.  Over the two-year stretch from 1998-2000, he had two of the top 12 seasons for centers in assists per game.

To that end, I don’t quite understand the concept of offensive portability. Where would 2000 David Robinson rank by that metric? What about Shaquille O’Neal? I suppose it’s a chicken versus egg thing, but I think if we had giant, efficient, offensively dominant bigs in the league today, coaches would use them.

Roy -

For ME? No worries. I personally looked hard at adding Zo next to Dirk but thought that Embiid would work better. That was my call.

"I" watched Zo growing up (I'm 50)...loved him so much that during BOS's Lean Years he made me a Charlotte fan for a couple of years lol.

You have a GREAT team, though. Your choice of building around Greek Freak was sound and I wished that I had a earlier pick.

Love Dirk but knew that it would be a challenge hiding his defensive deficiencies. Didn't want to start Tyson because of his OFFENSIVE limitations.

Having the 11th pick placed me on the fringe of getting a true "A" (all-around talent) but no regrets.

I enjoyed myself and wish the playoff contenders well.

Looking forward to NEXT one.

No, GreenFaith, I'm aware of your basketball knowledge.  I know you've watched all of these guys play.

It's one of the unique things about the Historic Draft, though:  not everybody has.  Even only going back to 2000, there are GMs in this draft who weren't born, or were barely out of diapers.  Viewing players through a purely statistical lens, I don't think it's possible to get the full flavor for some of their greatness.

I really liked the team you built.  It was the smartest, best two-way team you've put together, in my opinion.  Well done.

I mean if "tasting the full flavour" of a player's greatness entails being against calling weak passers who carry a heavy offensive load black holes, I want no part of it. But obviously not living through an era means that I don't bother to watch games/read scouting reports and only come to conclusions about players by purely viewing the game through a statistical lens.

[Roy H.]

I admit I don't know enough about Mourning's game. From what I've read, I wouldn't take him above Embiid-Jokic. I may well be wrong.

If you happen to see any Heat games from 1999 or 2000, check them out. Zoe was a monster on both ends. He was one of the most dominant defensive players of the era, but he could also score in a multitude of ways.  In an era of good centers, Alonzo averaged 20 / 10 with nearly four blocks per game.

I don’t think that either Embiid or Jokic are in the conversation.  They are both extremely talented, but neither has shown the ability to dominate on both ends like Mourning.

Check out this comparison between Mourning and Embiid:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Joel+Embiid&player_id1_select=Joel+Embiid&y1=2020&player_id1=embiijo01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Alonzo+Mourning&player_id2_select=Alonzo+Mourning&y2=2000&player_id2=mournal01&idx=players

The year I chose for Embiid was 18-19 I believe.

And I believe Mourning had a better TEAM around him that Embiid does now...

Don't believe Zo had "A Unicorn of a PG that was reluctant to shoot".....

Zo appeared to be a black hole on offense as well....not sure how I could reconcile the assist numbers (maybe poster 'Somebody" could do this?)

It is all water under the bridge now, though...votes have been cast...favorites have been chosen...trades have been made already.

I enjoyed myself.

Just looking forward to the next one - and with hopefully a LARGER pool of players to chose from.

Alonzo Mourning was a black hole - he was like a smaller Ewing during his peak (strong scoring + elite defensive peak, but weak passing and low offensive portability).

Real question:  how many games did you watch him play?   Given your appreciation for Kevin Garnett and David Robinson, I suspect she would love watching the man play basketball.  I ask because you have previously disclosed your age, and sometimes I feel that your takes do you not line up with those of people who watched the games at the time.

Alonzo wasn’t a modern-era passer, but he wasn’t a black hole, either.  Over the two-year stretch from 1998-2000, he had two of the top 12 seasons for centers in assists per game.

To that end, I don’t quite understand the concept of offensive portability. Where would 2000 David Robinson rank by that metric? What about Shaquille O’Neal? I suppose it’s a chicken versus egg thing, but I think if we had giant, efficient, offensively dominant bigs in the league today, coaches would use them.

Roy -

For ME? No worries. I personally looked hard at adding Zo next to Dirk but thought that Embiid would work better. That was my call.

"I" watched Zo growing up (I'm 50)...loved him so much that during BOS's Lean Years he made me a Charlotte fan for a couple of years lol.

You have a GREAT team, though. Your choice of building around Greek Freak was sound and I wished that I had a earlier pick.

Love Dirk but knew that it would be a challenge hiding his defensive deficiencies. Didn't want to start Tyson because of his OFFENSIVE limitations.

Having the 11th pick placed me on the fringe of getting a true "A" (all-around talent) but no regrets.

I enjoyed myself and wish the playoff contenders well.

Looking forward to NEXT one.

No, GreenFaith, I'm aware of your basketball knowledge.  I know you've watched all of these guys play.

It's one of the unique things about the Historic Draft, though:  not everybody has.  Even only going back to 2000, there are GMs in this draft who weren't born, or were barely out of diapers.  Viewing players through a purely statistical lens, I don't think it's possible to get the full flavor for some of their greatness.

I really liked the team you built.  It was the smartest, best two-way team you've put together, in my opinion.  Well done.

I mean if "tasting the full flavour" of a player's greatness entails being against calling weak passers who carry a heavy offensive load black holes, I want no part of it. But obviously not living through an era means that I don't bother to watch games/read scouting reports and only come to conclusions about players by purely viewing the game through a statistical lens.

I don’t think it is controversial to say that your analysis of the early 2000s players is based primarily on statistics. I don’t mean that disrespectfully, but it is just a fact: stats do not tell full stories. For instants, for the 2050 historic draft, what will stats heads make of 2019 Kyrie Irving?  In a lot of ways, he looks like he was a dominant player. However, he tanked our season.

I think that anybody over 40 in this draft spent a ton of time watching the same handful of teams: Bulls, Knicks, Pacers, Heat, Jazz, Sonics.  I think that having seen those teams and players play dozens and dozens of games, it gives us a different perspective. And, as an aside, it doesn’t just extend to basketball. I was reading an article the other day about the anniversary of Kurt Cobain‘s death, written by a millennial.  As much as he wanted to, and as much of the music as he listens to, he can’t fully understand what Nirvana meant at the time, just like I can’t fully grasp Bob Dylan or Buddy Holly. I can appreciate them, and I can study them, but I can never feel them in the way that people of that era did. 

I hope that makes sense.

And Mourning was no more of a black hole than post-Duncan Robinson.

 

[RodyTur10]

It was lots of fun playing this game.

I do have an observation and that is that the 5 teams that got to pick last in the draft (first round),

10. Houston Rockets (freshinthehouse)
11. Indiana Pacers (GreenFaith1819)
12. Oklahoma City Thunder (Yoki_IsTheName)
13. Miami Heat (RodyTur10)
14. Brooklyn Nets (Donoghus)

also finished in the bottom 5:

10. Brooklyn Nets (Donoghus)
11. Indiana Pacers (GreenFaith1819)
12. Miami Heat (RodyTur10)
13. Oklahoma City Thunder (Yoki_IsTheName)
14. Houston Rockets (freshinthehouse)

So it's fair to say that there was a strong correlation between the draft lottery and the strength of the teams.
There was a group of around 7-9 superstars and without them it's hard to almost impossible to make up by better drafting later on.

The biggest jumpers were Boston and Milwaukee, but they got a superstar (#7 Durant and 8 Antetokounmpo) so can't say they started with a real disadvantage.

The East has jumped +17 in favor of the West -17.

[Roy H.]

I think that's a really good observation, RT.

It's something I alluded to in my writeup a bit:  I think sometimes teams are given a bit of a free pass if they have a superstar.  However, I'd point out that Kevin Durant was titleless until he paired up with three stars.  Lebron has never won without two All-Stars beside him.  Shaq needed Kobe or Wade, and failed to win a title in 15 out of 19 seasons! Every star player in the NBA has failed to win a title much more than they've actually come out on top.  Yet, there's a perception that sometimes these top players are unstoppable.

And, I'm not immune to that bias.  I had three of those teams in my bottom five, and I think I indicated in one of my early rankings that my five favorite teams at the time coincided with how I viewed the top five players in the league.  Part of that is superstar bias.  The other part is that the GMs all put together really smart teams, meaning their team structure was Elite Superstar + several well-fitting star players.

And, for whatever it's worth, the team with the best player in the league missed out on the playoffs.

[nickagneta]

And, for whatever it's worth, the team with the best player in the league missed out on the playoffs.

...due to the aforementioned Redick three pointer at the buzzer in game 82. Lol.

[Donoghus]

I feel like way in the past, maybe it was Redz who proposed, and we actually utilized a modified snake draft order for some drafts we did to try & help mitigate the "superstar" factor. 

Obviously, with some drafts, I think it's unnecessary, while in others it's benefical.

[RPGenerate]

Any thoughts on a Payton/Kyrie backcourt for my matchup with Utah? I feel like the extra pressure this would put on a mid-30s Reggie Miller would work really well for my offense. I think that we survive defensively as well. I'd have Payton guard the wing, while Kyrie guards Kidd/Rondo.

[nickagneta]

I feel like way in the past, maybe it was Redz who proposed, and we actually utilized a modified snake draft order for some drafts we did to try & help mitigate the "superstar" factor. 

Obviously, with some drafts, I think it's unnecessary, while in others it's benefical.

We did that in CB Drafts because the talent level drop off was so bad and we had 30 GMs. But in these Historical Drafts, the talent drop off is much less severe and we have only 12-16 GMs, so I never saw the need to do anything more than a regular snake draft.